@nickers said:

Nickers, I've heard others thinking Otto played RB in college - but he only played QB (although he returned punts early on as well). Here's a good write-up about his college career at Northwestern from Wikipedia:

Early life and college career

Born in Waukegan, Illinois, Graham's first interest growing up was music.^[2] Encouraged by his parents, both of whom were music teachers, he took up several instruments: the piano, violin, cornet and French horn.^[3][4] Graham also excelled in athletics, and attended Northwestern University on a basketball scholarship in 1940.^[5] There he played on the varsity basketball team as a freshman and continued to study music.^[6][7] Graham did not take up football until his sophomore year, when Northwestern coach Pappy Waldorf saw him throwing in an intramural game and invited him to practice with the team.^[5][6] Northwestern's coaches were impressed with his running and passing, and Waldorf convinced him to sign up.^[5][6] Although football became Graham's primary sport, he also played baseball and continued on the basketball team. As a senior, he was named a first-team basketball All-American, part of a squad selected by news outlets comprising the best players at each position.^[3]

Graham's first game for the Northwestern Wildcats football team was on October 4, 1941, when he caught a Kansas State punt and returned it 90 yards for a touchdown. He ran and passed for two more touchdowns in the 51–3 victory.^[6][8] After scoring another pair of touchdowns in a win against Wisconsin, Graham passed to his wide receivers for two touchdowns in a victory over the Ohio State, coached by Paul Brown, the team's only loss of the 1941 season.^[6][9] Northwestern ended the year with an 11th-place showing in the AP Poll of the best college teams in the country.^[6][10]

As America's involvement in World War II intensified after the December 7, 1941, attack on Pearl Harbor, Graham signed up for service alongside many fellow student-athletes, entering the U.S. Navy Air Corps.^[5][6] He was able to stay at Northwestern as he waited to be called for active duty. The Wildcats struggled in 1942 as their players joined the war effort, winning only one game.^[6][11] Graham still had 89 completions, setting a single-season passing record in the Big Ten Conference, a division of major college teams from the Midwestern United States.^[6][12]

The following year Graham and some of his teammates enlisted in the military but continued to play for Northwestern.^[6][13] Enlistees from other schools also enrolled at Northwestern, where the U.S. Navy had a training station.^[6][14] The 1943 season was a strong one for Northwestern. The team beat Ohio State, the defending national champions, and a good military team at Great Lakes Naval Station.^[15][16] The Wildcats lost to Notre Dame and Michigan, however, and finished the season with an 8–2 record and a ninth-place ranking in the AP Poll.^[15][16][17] Graham set another Big Ten passing record, was named the conference's Most Valuable Player, received All-American honors and finished third in Heisman Trophy voting.^{[15][18][19][20]} By the end of his college career, he held a Big Ten Conference record for passing yards with 2,132.^[3][17]

Graham's career at Northwestern officially ended in February 1944, when he moved to Colgate University in Hamilton, New York, in the Navy's V-5 cadet program, a pilot training course.^[21][22] He played basketball for Colgate before moving to North Carolina Pre-Flight later in 1944, where he played on the Cloudbusters football team under coaches Glenn Killinger and Bear Bryant.^[17][23]

Impressed by Graham's performances in Northwestern's wins over the Ohio State in 1941 and 1943, Paul Brown came and offered him a contract worth $7,500 per year ($99,774 in 2016 dollars) in 1945 to play for a professional team he was coaching in Cleveland in the new All-America Football Conference (AAFC).^[13] Graham would not receive his salary until he started playing, however, and Brown added a monthly stipend of $250 ($3,326 in 2016) until the end of the war.^[13] It was a large amount of money at the time. "All I asked was, where do I sign?" Graham said later. "Some of the other navy men said I was rooting for the war to last forever."^[13] Graham was also drafted by the National Football League's Detroit Lions, but he did not sign a contract or play a game with the team as the war wore on.^[24]

Large numbers of athletes came home as the conflict wound down in Europe following Germany's surrender in mid-1945. The AAFC's first season was not set to start until the fall of 1946, and Graham occupied the intervening months by joining the Rochester Royals of the National Basketball League (NBL), a forerunner of the National Basketball Association.^[25] In March 1946, the Royals swept a best-of-five series against the Sheboygan Redskins to win the NBL title.^[26]

@the-gipper said:

Not only that.. But Otto Graham was a running back in college.. Which I think makes it more amazing...

@ghoolie said:

That is a stupid and ignorant statement. The game in the 50s and in the 70s is almost exactly the same. Players in the 70s wore almost exactly the same type of gear as in the 50s. Technological advancements in gear did not really start to begin until the mid 80s.

The players of the 70s and 50s were roughly the same size and build (and we are talking specifically about OL and DL). Again, it was not until mid 80s that the trench players got bigger. And FYI, skill players from the 50s to now are not really any bigger.

Players in the 70s also had to work offseason jobs.

The 50s to the 70s were almost not at all different as far as football goes.....However, there are vast, vast differences in the game from the 70s to now. Rule changes to enhance scoring. Nutrition, workout regimens, etc. etc. etc.

Anyone that has been alive and awake from then til now would know this.

@choco said:

True. I keep forgetting how recent 1970-1983 is to Steelheads. It's only about 34-47 years ago. Despite all that talent around him in 14 years and all the credit he gets for it winning, he only made 3 Pro Bowls in 75, 78, 79. That's decent but there's only 1 knucklehead in here announcing it's way better than Otto Graham.

What fan in here would adore his 6 TD passes to 24 INTs (30.4 passer rating) enough to ask everybody to be patient with the rookie? Who do we suppose would be the most vocal critic of that in here? And wouldn't the same critics want the head coach fired?

@flugel said:

Otto played with midgets. He played in leather helmets against part time gas station attendants. His championships were in minor league play. If you put him in a suit in 1976 he would have shit his pants and stayed in the locker room. Bradshaw was far better than Otto, who by the way, was a homosexual.

....modern.....

@ghoolie said:

Does this really sound like a guy who wants to fight Steeler fans? Or, a guy that wants to do bedroom gymnastics with Steelheads?

Otto Graham won 7 Pro Football Championships during his 10 year career (when he led the Browns to 10 consecutive Pro Football Championship Games). In terms of winning, is there a better 10 year period by any QB in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

Tour....while it is true that the Steelers were the "Team of the Decade" of the 1970s....point in fact is that they had the closest race of all decades to be declared that. Recall that I do a thread along these lines after each major league sports season (except hockey).

Here are the results of those "team of the decade" "races" for each decade. Again, note Steelers/Cowboys 1970s is the closest race:

Past Teams of the Decades, utilizing the same basic method:

2000s: Patriots 41 pts. Runnersup: Steelers 28 pts, Colts 25 pts

1990s: Cowboys 37 pts. Runnersup: Bills 28, Broncos and 49ers 25

1980s: 49ers 46 pts. Runnersup: Redskins 30, Raiders 23

1970s: Steelers 48 pts. Runnersup: Cowboys 46 pts, Dolphins 30 pts

1960s: Packers 56 pts. Runnersup: Chargers 34, Oilers 30 (AFL teams)

1950s: Browns 57 pts. Runnersup: Lions 36 pts, Rams and Giants 25 pts

1940s: Bears 46 pts. Runnersup: Browns 40 pts, Redskins 28

1930s: Packers 52 pts. Runnersup: Giants 44, Bears 32

1920s: Bears 43 pts. Runnersup: Bulldogs 30, Packers and Yellowjackets 19

(Patriots leading in the 2010s so far)

Yes, Terry benefited from have great weapons and a great D, but most SB winning QBs have as well.

Yes, Terry's stats aren't all that impressive by today's standards, but in his day a 3000 yard season was the benchmark, not 4000 as we see today. Also 50% connect rate was the Mendosa line, not the 60% we've risen to today.

His TD:INT ratio? Yes, overall it is not great, but if you draw a line thru 1974, the first of the Steeler/Bradshaw SB run, in Flug's list, and look above and below that line, the numbers are clearly different. Not exactly a light-switch going on scenario, but close to it... and his career stats were pretty much doomed in his first two seasons when he threw a combined 46 INTs vs. only 19 TDs.

Bottom line he grew into the job... as did Noll. There aren't many parallels in today's game. I'd love to see the PTG press' headlines in '70 and '71. I doubt they were urging "patience".

HoF worthy career? I lean towards "yes".. much on the weight of his then unprecedented 4 rings as part of the undisputed team of the 70's. (Only the 'Boys can really contest that and fuck them.) Personally I can't hold his HoF teammates against him. Trying hard to think of a HoF QB without at least one HoF WR teammate... and many also benefited from HoF RBs and/or strong Ds to boot.

@flugel said:

I am not sure I necessarily agree that Bradshaw was just along for the ride. He did take some time to learn the game...but back then it was a common thought process that no QB was ready until between his 3rd and 5th year in the league.

As for Bradshaw TD/Int. ration....that, again, was fairly typical of QBs back in those days.

I don't think the Steelers actually win the way they did if Joe Gilliam or Terry Hanratty were their QB during that era. Given the strength of that team, they certainly would have been contenders, but not necessarily the champions they were.

One interesting hypothetical we have discussed in the past is based on the fact that Bradshaw was #1 overall the year he came out, and Mike Phipps was #3 overall.: Would the Steelers have been as good if Phipps had been their choice, and Bradshaw came to the Browns? Would they have won all those game with Phipps at the helm? I say no. Phipps was no good, Bradshaw was.

@ghoolie said:

The point is, your fellow steelerfan butt sniffers would not agree with that axiom. They think that even without their top 2-3 players (skill players)...that they would still be a great team...just because they are the Steelers. Except, of course, that was disproven in the last game last year, where the Browns kicked their asses all over the field.....and it was just the Browns shooting themselves in the foot at every turn that caused them to lose the game. Point being...without BR/Brown/Bell....the Steeler team last year was otherwise on par with a 1-15 team.

@flugel said:

Alrighty then. I guess I just didn't remember that. Remembered him going from here to the Jags.

@flugel said:

And the Bradshaw has 4 rings.. Sipe has how many?.. Im not saying Bradshaw was GOAT.. But when it mattered,,He won... Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler were garbage.. Bradshaw had will and conviction. Bradshaw had the clutch gene... Dlido had 2 guys named Lewis on his team.

@nickers said:

Not to interrupt your spin the bottle session with Ghoolie; but you don't have a very good reputation at all in here when it comes to knowing what you're talking about. Teams can win SB Titles in spite of their QB if they're talented enough or guys like Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler wouldn't have SB rings. If you really think that makes them better than Marino and Fouts then God bless ya!

Yeah Nickers - you would really worship this kind of start from a QB here while telling everyone they just need to be patient.

1970 30.4 rating 6 TD 24 INT

1971 59.7 rating 13 TD 22 INT

1972 64.1 rating 12 TD 12 INT

1973 54.5 rating 10 TD 15 INT

1974 55.2 rating 7 TD 8 INT

1975 88.0 rating 18 TD 9 INT

1976 65.4 rating 10 TD 9 INT

1977 71.4 rating 17 TD 19 INT

I have seen Bradshaw play so I understand why his HC (Noll) and top receiver (Swann) never thought he was that great when they had enough talent around him to accomplish what the Cleveland Browns did from 46-55 (winning 7 Pro Football Championships of the 10 they appeared in). We've had the best QB (Otto Graham) and he wasn't still getting benched in his 4th season like your hero Bradshaw. Instead, Graham was leading his team to their 4th consecutive Pro Football Championship in just his 4th season. You and Ghoolie can't tell the difference between a driver and a passenger. Graham was a driver- Bradshaw was a passenger. The best pass of Bradshaw's career was named after a miracle; and if you saw the play - you'd know why.

We have 2 knuckleheads in here that are bragging about Terry Bradshaw instead of Otto Graham and telling people they don't know what they're talking about. Priceless!

@nickers said:

Bradshaw was the best QB in the modern era of pro football. He was pure warrior, pure will and unlike any QB since Elway, he as a leader of men.

I remember the last time he played the Browns. He was on the bench, his arm shot. The Browns had something like a 10 point lead and the Steelers looked hopeless. Noll decided to let injured TB go into the game. The reports are that he went into the huddle and said, "let's have some fun", and he proceeded to throw 2 4th QTR touchdowns and shove it right up the Browns ass, as he always did.

NUMBERS? HERE.................... FAr BETTER THAN OTTO GRAHAM............... FAR FAR BETTER

Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers.

Career postseason record: 14-5

Career postseason statistics: 261-456, 3833 yards, 30 TD, 26 INT; 83.0 passer rating

Terry Bradshaw is just one of two quarterbacks to win four Super Bowls. In each of the Steelers' Super Bowl victories, he posted a passer rating above 100. He led a fourth quarter comeback in the second and fourth games, and threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter of each game.

As a matter of fact, Bradshaw's fourth quarter passing statistics in the Super Bowl look like this:

11-16, 292 yards, 4 TD

That is not a typo. Bradshaw averaged 18 yards per pass attempt. He threw five incompletions against four touchdown passes. His final pass in his first three Super Bowls was a touchdown pass, and in his fourth Super Bowl, it was a 45-yard completion that set up a final touchdown.

His passer rating is a jaw-dropping 151.0, and he was awarded the MVP trophy in his final two Super Bowls.

Bradshaw doesn't just shine in the Super Bowl either.

There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game. Then there were the 1976 AFC divisional playoffs, where Bradshaw posted a perfect passer rating against the Baltimore Colts.

Bradshaw threw for two or more touchdown passes in his final seven postseason games, all of which the Steelers scored 27+ points. He averaged an incredible 8.4 yards per pass attempt throughout his playoff career.

What a bunch of bitter, blind, ignorant cock-suckers Browns fans are. Far-far better than Otto when tit really mattered.

Greatest QB of all time? Yer goddamned right.

@canton-mike said:

Bradshaw & Namath.....2 QBs who make me wonder how EITHER of 'em made it to the HOF. Oh yeah, Joe looked fine in panty hose!???

Mike

Because Joe Namath is the coolest son of a bitch to ever play football.

WSS

@mudfly said:

Thanks Mud! I saw the same guy you did and I posted the numbers behind the why....

@ghoolie said:

I dont know.....how does Bernie have anything to do with Bradshaw?

I know you've never heard me mention Bernie as a great QB or HOF talent......not once, everrrrrrr......

And I applauded when Bill pulled the trigger.....so.....try again.....

Bradshaw fell into a massive pool of talented players....he was just a dope lucky enough to be along for the free ride.....

Dude had a HOF line, a HOF RB and 2 HOF receivers, yet completed only 50% of his passes.....and threw an interception for every TD....pretty piss poor if yer askin me....

As an aside....even though I dont think Bernie was that great.....Id say he'd have done as well as Bradshaw did, if given the same team...(cause he sure as hell had better numbers, with way fewer weapons)

@canton-mike said:

Don't worry - if those panty hose were air tight on any QB that grew up in PA or played in Pittsburgh, Ghoolie bought the Playgirl Magazine they appeared in. He probably asked if they had any scratch and sniff editions.

You should have seen the crush he had on Tommy Maddox when he wore those gold pants extra tight.

Mike

Bradshaw is one of the dumbest AND luckiest QB's to ever grace the NFL......HOF quality QB, my ass....lucky sob?....yep....

There's a reason it took years for him to earn Nolls nod....cause he kind of sucked....

...a career 1 TD to 1 Int ratio....bites....

....150th highest passer rating.....bites....

....less than 2000 yds per year.....bites.....

I wouldnt even put him top 100 in anything....let alone HOF......

He got a free ride alllllllllll the way to the promised land.......and in the booth too....cause he's dumb like rocks.....darrrr

@ghoolie said:

The Pittsburgh Steeroids won 4 Superbowls in the 70s with a hollow dome at QB. When you have to label your most important pass play in franchise history after a miracle "the Immaculate Reception" - while many of Lynn Swann's clutch plays required circus catches with the acrobatics of a Mary Lou Retton - you have to wonder if Bradshaw wasn't just a glorified passenger getting a free pass beneficiary to the hall of Fame. Frenchie Fuqua got hung out to dry with an ill-advised throw that floated over the middle. The violent collision re-routed the pass to Franco Harris who scooped it in about a millimeter above the ground for an easy TD jog.

On top of all that, here's his passer ratings that prolly had Noll wondering if Bradshaw could really win somewhere that didn't have a utopian set-up:

1970 30.4 6 TD 24 INT

1971 59.7 13 TD 22 INT

1972 64.1 12 TD 12 INT

1973 54.5 10 TD 15 INT

1974 55.2 7 TD 8 INT

1975 88.0 18 TD 9 INT

1976 65.4 10 TD 9 INT

1977 71.4 17 TD 19 INT

He was still getting benched for piss poor performance in his 4th NFL season, which kind of sheds some light on the turbulent relationship he had with Chuck Noll. He had some passer ratings that went above 80 in 1978,1981 and 1982 but in those 3 seasons he had 45 INTs reminding us there better be a damn good defense damage controlling that to save the day as often as necessary. It's also no secret that Bradshaw and Lynn Swann haven't been the best of friends dating back to their playing days. That roided up Pitt team had the defense, running game, perimeter talent and pervasive steroid use to win about 7 Superbowls at bigger margins of victory than the 16-6 they settled for against Minnesota. Did Bradshaw do anything more than take Mike Webster's groinal inventory all game?

I would have loved to have seen Kosar or Sipe get the margin of error Pittsburgh tucked Bradshaw into his HOF career with in terms of overall talent top to bottom. Can you imagine if Fouts or Marino had that kind of margin of error, where their defense could chip in scoring 7-10 points weekly while creating turnovers and limiting opponent scoring enough to make the QB's challenge easy every week? Having 2 RBs in Pitt's backfield rush for over 1000 yards in the same season didn't hurt either;especially when it was time to protect a lead and eat clock. We won the division in 85 with that kind of 1-2 punch from Mack and Byner during Kosar's rookie season/learning experience he ended up replacing Danielson about 5-6 weeks into things.

We've been giving our QBs a whole lot less to work with than Bradshaw got in Pittsburgh; and we aren't waiting until their 6th season for the QB to emerge/look the part. In fact, sometimes we're not even waiting until the end of their first September to make our conclusions. Deferring our coin toss victories to the 31st ranked defense and an inevitable 7 point deficit only to tell the rookie/Kessler "go get em kid" almost had the same kind of prognosis that handing a box of matches to a pyromaniac and telling him to be careful has. Someone is getting hurt. I'm sure a kid like Goff wished he had the set-up Dak Prescott walked into. Guys like Troy Aikman and Steve Young got more than 1 concussion in their rookie NFL seasons on shit teams while many fans made premature conclusions with a certainty neither was headed for a HOF career.

This draft may or may not have had the right QB for our future; but I think our FO finally worked diligently in the off-season to set up a much more QB friendly Oline with a very promising young TE that can jump, jet and catch (with a QB friendly catch radius) that was MIA in 2016. We also added an experienced WR coming off his best season (reception volume-wise) who also has a nice catch radius. That's a much better signing than Dwayne Bowe (3 years removed from his last good football for $12 million).