@eqrulz101 said:

and the Browns lost by a slim margin--it wasn't a blowout by any means.

@inspecta said:

reality is there was a Browns QB last year who resembles that statement.....but he is no longer on the roster.

@daddybull1 said:

Zombo has it correct though, you can spin statistics any way you want....How many times a QB gets sacked could be more of a testament for the QB rather than the line.... As far as dropping more defenders to defend the pass---this says a hell of a lot about those people who were calling the plays.... A young QB seldom changes the play at the line but a smart O Coordinator knows what plays to call to take advantage of the defense that we're running against.... Once again, all of this doesn't necessarily fall at DA's feet....

I hope Quinn lives up to all the expectations, hope he gives the team the energy needed to get us to where we want to go.... I hope he brings excitment with the winning results that we experienced with Sipe & Kosar.... Even in defeat I was proud to be a Cleveland Brown... I didn't go off scratching my head trying to figure out what I had just seen.... I can't remember being beat so soundly that it was an embarassment....

If Quinns the guy, so be it.... If its Anderson, thats the way it is.... If it's Ratliff of some other QB not yet on the roster, bring him on.... If the planets align and we stay injury free, 2009 could be one hell of a ride..................

peace

T. Dawg

While I agree we had some really bad coaching are you tring to say that they were so bad that they did game plan and call plays that could be effective against cover defense? I mean these guys do get paid good money and have years of experience, to say that they didnt call plays that could be effective agaisnt cover defense is laughable. Some play calling, ok, but to put it solely on that you just can not do. Blame lies with DA and not being able to get it done. Either he didnt check down to other receivers or he just threw bad short passes.

Zombo has it correct though, you can spin statistics any way you want....How many times a QB gets sacked could be more of a testament for the QB rather than the line.... As far as dropping more defenders to defend the pass---this says a hell of a lot about those people who were calling the plays.... A young QB seldom changes the play at the line but a smart O Coordinator knows what plays to call to take advantage of the defense that we're running against.... Once again, all of this doesn't necessarily fall at DA's feet....

I hope Quinn lives up to all the expectations, hope he gives the team the energy needed to get us to where we want to go.... I hope he brings excitment with the winning results that we experienced with Sipe & Kosar.... Even in defeat I was proud to be a Cleveland Brown... I didn't go off scratching my head trying to figure out what I had just seen.... I can't remember being beat so soundly that it was an embarassment....

If Quinns the guy, so be it.... If its Anderson, thats the way it is.... If it's Ratliff of some other QB not yet on the roster, bring him on.... If the planets align and we stay injury free, 2009 could be one hell of a ride..................

peace

T. Dawg

Zombo said:

Well I don't know why no one gives Anderson credit for not getting sacked. Frye was getting sacked once a minute behind some of the same guys.

Granted, the pass protection has greatly improved ... but give the QB some credit for not taking sacks. It's like baseball and stolen bases: it's partially the pitcher and it's partially the catcher. Same with sacks: it's partially the QB and partially the line.

There are some QBs that don't get sacked a lot regardless of who is blocking for them, Dan Marino and Peyton Manning among them. Quick releases. For all of DA's fault's and I don't deny he has many of them, he has a quick release and does not take sacks. Those are big assets to a coaching staff.

I understand that Browns fans, for the most part, have seen enough of DA to give up on him and are anxious for Quinn to take over the team. But the coaching staff can't act like schoolboys in their Browns pajamas ... they have to take the emotion out of it and assess every aspect of these young QBs, the future of our franchise depends on it, and I'm glad they didn't jump to a rush judgment. Let them see for themselves who they like better ... I'm pretty sure your boy should emerge ... if he doesn't, then a better guy did.

Again 08 was garbage ... throw it out. It was the worst performance by a group of wide receivers I have ever seen, regardless of which of the four guys were throwing the ball.

And to tell you the truth, where Quinn was drafted, or what was traded for him means nothing to the new brass. They didn't draft him. They didn't sign DA. The contracts matter. And what they show on the field and in the classroom will matter. It's a clean start for everybody ... may a champion emerge.

Zombo

I would just like to point out that the lack of sacks on DA seems to me to be because teams dropped back defenders and dared DA to beat them underneath which he couldnt do. When teams blizted (like in early 2007) DA tore defenses up. So they changed up and dropped back defenders, which we all seen the result in late 2007 and 2008. All be it 2008 our offense sucked but he was the leader of that sucky offense. Blame lies with him as well.

Masters said:

Now why did you leave out the other part of my comment regarding running the ball agianst CLE because they can't stop the run?

Why are you having a 'debate' with someone who didn't even watch the material? He's just throwing out bullshit hoping we will forget what actually happened in the game.

@drunkandstoopid said:

I simply said it was a possibility, not an actuality. If you really want to go by QBR, well there is gonna be a big swing in those since the week before in SF (which is notoriously windy) and the one win Dolphins the following week, when in those games Palmer threw 4TDs to 1 INT (3 in MIA and 1 in SF), as compared to a 1TD to 2INT game against CLE. INTs have a huge impact on QBR.

Now why did you leave out the other part of my comment regarding running the ball agianst CLE because they can't stop the run?

@lumbergh said:

I could bother to posts the videos and links, but they are on this board and you have posted in those threads.

Masters said:

Guess that explains his 97.2 rating the week prior and 121.4 rating the week following the Browns game.... not.

@greythan said:

Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".

Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.

The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety ).

Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!

uh...don't lose sight of the fact that some of those guys were rookies (whom you expect to perform poorly in their rookie season), and that list represents 30 years.

I'll bet the list of guys who sucked as passers one season and continued to suck is much, much longer.

@greythan said:

to non BQ Lovers the QB rating isn't a consideration in the QB competition since BQ had the same rating as DA.

@hammertime said:

Masters said:

bullsheeeit

Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".

Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.

The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety ).

Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!

@drunkandstoopid said:

DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.

For the loss, I'd put the blame on the staff. No question the game plan was bad. But for the 4 INTs, each one of those was on DA. They were never a case of the wind keeping the ball up (ala the red right 88 play) or it blowing of line. Those balls were straight up bad throws at defenders.

If we are going to bring up what Palmer did, I'd like to remind you that Carson was playing at the tail end of his first season back from his knee surgery. Where and fatigue from the season (rest and protecting Carson's repaired knee) could have as much to do with Cincy throwing less as the wind. Along with the fact that CLE couldn't stop the run to save their lives.

@lumbergh said:

but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.

Way to make stuff up I never said Quinn will quit dinking and dunking. Of course I can't base much on 1 healthy NFL start (which was his first). Of course his track record in college was not to dink and dunk solely. He's a take what the D give me QB, not a force the ball into triple coverage and get my receivers leveled QB.

A guy who backed into the Pro Bowl based on his first 8 starts (not his last 7) is hardly having a Pro Bowler on the roster. And sweet mother of god, did you really just say "who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone."? Do you even watch football on any level? That ain't exactly a play you use once a game, let alone multiple times in a whole season. But if your point is arm strength, I will again point you to utube so you can watch Quinn in college or his pro work out. I hate to break it to you, but Quinn can throw 50 yards on a line.

Masters said:

Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.

Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.

Look at the play by play of the Cincy game. Cincinnati and Carson Palmer threw many more passes than the Browns and DA during the '07 season... during the game Carson's passes were going all over the place and their O coordinator shut down the passing game... Chud didn't. DA's 48 attempts to Palmer's 21 might have had something to do with the 4 ints. Palmer had 2 ints in 21 attempts and they shut down the passing game. Palmer even had a lower efficiency rating in that game than DA did (44 to DA's 53). Lewis was actually running pretty well that game, but the Browns coaching staff chose not to try to win it on the ground in what were horrible conditions for passing.

DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.

Masters said:

yeah you can say "I think Brady will quit dinking and dunking soon" for years.

but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.

@shepwrite said:

He gets protected very well... and he throws a lot of interceptions. Those two aren't supposed to go together.

In fairness Shep, part of the reason DA got sacked so little is he locks on to his target at the LOS and chucks the ball as soon as he hits that 3rd/5th step in his drop. Not that it is a good habit either.

@lumbergh said:

Too bad for him they figured him out by halftime.

It was all downhill from there. He hasn't thrown a TD since. 9 quarters.

Has DA ever gone 9 quarters without a TD pass? Maybe Greythan should look it up.

Actually that is exactly the O DEN would expect. That's what just about every team expects when they face a QB with no starting experience in the NFL. Short passes and a steady diet of the run. The only surprise was CLE throwing as much as they did early on.

Oh yeah, they figured him out by half time That is why the second half featured a TD drive and a FG drive in 5 total 2nd half possession (and one of those failed 3 involved a fumble by Winslow in DEN territory). Watch the games will you.

I don't care about TD passes as much as I care about TD scoring drives, and it was 9 quarters w/o a TD drive.

What I would like to see is DA go more than 4 quarters without throwing a pick. Heck I'd settle for 4 quarter w/o blowing an easy swing pass or 5 yard pass.

@lumbergh said:

it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.

wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.

Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.

how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?

Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.

Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.

Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.

Zombo said:

If I recall, we were 5-3 and he threw 10 or 12 TD passes in the back half of 2007, what needs to be explained?

It is what it is: he had a productive first year as a starter and then fell off last year when surrounded by a crumbling offense. He's inconsistent and sometimes erratic. He has a strong arm and has already won a number of games at 25.

He's not the messiah, he's not the devil, he's an interesting QB on the Cleveland Browns.

I feel like I always have to add "But I like Quinn better and think he is the long-term guy" to every DA post to make everyone feel better about it.

And I do like Quinn. If I had to pick one QB between the two to lead my team for the next 10 years, I'd put my money on Quinn.

But that doesn't mean that some of the criticism of DA isn't absurd. It is.

He's a young guy with a live arm that has had his ups and down. It's the NFL for god's sake. It's to be expected.

I'm glad he's still a Brown. He's talented and has potential.

The 08 Browns were garbage.

Zombo

I'll start by saying you don't need to add the disclaimer about Quinn vs. DA as long term guys. We are on the same page there.

I certainly don't think DA is the devil and do think some criticism of DA is absurd as well. But some of it is well merited.

As for the back stretch of 2007, over DA's last 7 starts he threw 9TD to 10 INTs, his Y/A began to decline, as did his Y/G. His QB then dropped down to the low 70's over that stretch. He then followed up in 2008 continueing that trend. While he certainly has the opportunity to make adjustments and improve, it doesn't follow the trend he's been on since surprising the league. Once they caught up to him, he hasn't made the adjustment to his game. It also follows the trend of the player he has been since HS.

I would never say DA doesn't have potential or talent. But lots of guys have that and never put it all together. We all know it take more than just physical skill to make it as a starting NFL QB.

@oconrecon said:

Denver wasn't expecting the dink and dunk were they? Understandable, they only had 3 days to look at tape.

Too bad for him they figured him out by halftime.

It was all downhill from there. He hasn't thrown a TD since. 9 quarters.

Has DA ever gone 9 quarters without a TD pass? Maybe Greythan should look it up.

Masters said:

the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.

it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.

wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.

Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.

how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?