@flugel said:

It's whether a QB can change his proverbial stripes, isn't it?

Elway did. Ben has. Manning did late, but in truth his physical limitations played a role. Could Fouts, Marino, and other gunslingers have done so? I can't be sure. The QB I see as King of the Gunslingers, Favre, barely held himself in check for a single super bowl season... and that was with Reggie White sitting on him.

I will say that at least there is some degree of choice involved in a gunslinger's decision. Same cannot be said for the game manager... at least not over the long haul. It should be easier for the physically gifted to dial down aggression, than for the limited to put a team on their back.

@tour2ma said:

Well said. Both QBs had great lines, RBs/FBs and perimeter help as well as great coaching. It wasn't that I didn't like Griese but sometimes fans start judging QB greatness more on SB ring inventory than anything else. Anyone think Dan Fouts couldn't have won multiple Superbowls in Pittsburgh? Meanwhile, a lot of former League MVP QBs never get their teams to Superbowls. Elway was a betetr QB when he wasn't winning the Superbowl but he had more balanced teams when he did win the Superbowl. Doesn't Peyton Manning's last Superbowl in Denver remind us of that? The irony is Elway was the GM that brought him to Denver.

Getting back to what was placed around the game management of Griese, Starr and eventually Bradshaw - my hope is the FO has made this an easier team to QB for whoever wins the starting job. We added some veteran FA linemen that should really help us while I still think a draftee like Shon Coleman can provide reliability now that he's closer to 100%. Njoku should be a real nice target as should DeValve (with a year of experience now under his belt). Kenny Britt arrives with experience we didn't have lining up outside last year (coming off a career best in receptions, going over 1000 yards and scoring 1 more TD than Pryor despite 1 less start). We shall see which our 2016 WR draftees benefit most from 1 year of experience. Hopefully that offseason work Corey Coleman arranged for the WRs and Kessler also helps them. Meatball on spaghetti here, Crow returns as the starting RB coming off 4.8 yards per carry.

Stay tuned...

I pretty much think of "system" QBs, i.e., those that play within their offensive system, as game managers. But then I think most identifiable systems as being game-management oriented.

The WCO was perhaps the ultimate system and Montana the ultimate purveyor of that system. At it's heart the WCO was a ball control passing attack, a "game-managing" system using the short pass as an extended handoff.

Young was a different bred to be sure adding a QB's legs to the equation. Have to credit Walsh for seeing the potential of two such disparate QB skill sets to run his "system".

Garcia? An attempt to install a Young clone. Jeff had a good run. Not sure if he simply lacked the skill level or suffered from being an additional generation removed from the architect of the system.

Contrast the WCO with the "Run & Shoot" which was a far more aggressive, take your shots system.

@tour2ma said:

Yea, Starr could be that, indeed. (Opposed to say, Daryl Lamonica of the same era) But, to be honest....I never thought of Bradshaw as the "game manager" type. Always more the gunslinger type.

You have identified that there are "game manager" type QBs...and "gunslinger" type QBs...but AHA!!! you have left out another type of QB: The "system" quarterback!! What about those guys??

Some say that some QBs were only good in certain systems...and would have been average otherwise. Montana? Young?

...if not those two, who may have been well talented in any system....I think it CAN be said for their successor: Jeff Garcia.

@flugel said:

@the-gipper said:

The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him.

Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr.

A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era.

Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception.

And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers.

@flugel said:

What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season.

Posted: January 14, 1974

Super Bowl VIII

Miami 24, Minnesota 7

SuperBowl.com wire reports

Rice Stadium

Houston, Texas

January 13, 1974

Attendance: 71,882

MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami

SCORING 1 2 3 4

Miami 14 3 7 0 24

Minnesota 0 0 0 7 7

1st Quarter

MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27

MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38

2nd Quarter

MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58

3rd Quarter

MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16

4th Quarter

MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35

The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him. And for that he goes HOF.

He was a winner, if nothing else.

@stinkhole said:

Neil O'Donnell had a very, very uncharacteristic day that day. He has the lowest career int.% of any retired QB.....Only active players the likes of Rogers, Wilson, and Brady, Derek Carr, Bradford...and....Kaepernick have a better career low career int. %.

So, the 3 ints. he threw in that game were highly out of character.

So, if he had just done what was usually in his character, they may have won.

And the Indians should have won 3 WS since 1995. And the Browns should have won like 9 out of 10 championships back in the 50s.

But...shit happens.

@ghoolie said:

What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season.

Posted: January 14, 1974

Super Bowl VIII

Miami 24, Minnesota 7

SuperBowl.com wire reports

Rice Stadium

Houston, Texas

January 13, 1974

Attendance: 71,882

MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami

MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27

MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38

MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58

MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16

MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35

@stinkhole said:

They were 5th in scoring offense, 9th in scoring defense.

And Dallas was a much better team, it was a weak year for the AFC, Dallas, Green Bay and SF were all better than Pittsburgh.

Zombo

@the-gipper said:

Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?

The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers

Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.

Neil O'Donnell at QB.

Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.

@tour2ma said:

Again, it's looking at the breakdown really. I know this is a flawed view to look at it (to a point), but looking at the position a QB was drafted is interesting. Using my list:

Manning (x2)

Brady

Big Ben

Brees

Rodgers

Flacco

Wilson

Of those 8 guys, both Mannings were drafted first, Ben was 7th (or 8th without looking it up). I'd say those guys were pretty much "land a QB first".

Then you have Rodgers, Brees, and Flacco who were mid-to-late first round guys (Brees was technically a 2nd round pick at the time I know). That's a deeper question, but I'd still argue that's closer to "land a QB first".

Then you got Brady and Wilson, who by this definition were more of the "good defense first" group.

Again, this isn't the best way to look at it without a deeper scope of each of those teams when the dudes got drafted, but overall the answer to me is that it's pretty evenly split. In that regard, I'm fine with what the Browns appear to be doing in building the defense first.

@bob806 said:

They? You mean "he"...Griese. Rocky Blier....good guy, good story....NOT in the HOF

@the-gipper said:

Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team.

Yes, in regards to Hostetler.

@tour2ma said:

No....a team should try to...to like to... do both: Acquire a great QB AND develop a great defense. A large percentage of Championship teams have done just that.

One or the other...

@tour2ma said:

Well, I expect most teams would like to do both. I mean, any GM of a team tries to do both. But, they have to get lucky. When the Browns drafted the likes of Quinn, Manziel, Weeden at #22...they were hoping they got the equivalent of Aaron Rodgers...a #24 pick.

When they drafted Justin Gilbert at #8 they were hoping they were getting a Patrick Peterson...and not a Justin Gilbert.

The Steelers back in 2004 had built a great defense/OL/run game....but they needed a star QB to put the icing on the cake. They got BR who became HOF caliber....but, they just as easily could have gotten a Matt Leinert, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell.

In some respects, that is why some teams go the route of picking up veteran QBs.....QBs who have some track record in the game.

Look at that list above of SB winning QBs. I count at least 9 of them who did not get there with the original team that drafted them.

So, there is that route. Consider these words: Brock Osweiler, Super Bowl Winning Quarterback!

(not necessarily as far fetched as Trent Dilfer, Super Bowl Winning QB...or Brad Johnson, fair to say?)

Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.

Which is the easier route to follow?

• Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
• Build a great D and land a very good QB?

@tour2ma said:

Sure...of course it is not that simple. Nevertheless...remember, none of us get paid to be on here or to try to dissect complicated matters. For entertainment purposes we watch Superhero movies, not epics. Same here.

@ghoolie said:

I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get?

@the-gipper said:

Sort of a "Great debate" on here...

It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here...

And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more...

Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas.

@the-gipper said:

Tom Brady gets ass raped twice by a Giant's defense..No where to run. No where to hide for Tom Terrific..Scoring 17 points than 14 points..ok, just glad to get that off my chest again..cough,cough

Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense......

Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had.

Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class.

Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance.

So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar.

Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn?

Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs