@wargograw said:

Saw him live once back in middle school.  We’re a bit of a renaissance family. 

He played in your home?

@texasag1969 said:

Saw Christopher Parkening live 3 rows back many years ago. Wonderful! Take a listen sometime. Must be on YouTube.

Saw him live once back in middle school. 

We’re a bit of a renaissance family. 

yeah he, mariano and girardi  tout cars for some BX dealership......and bernie plays local pubs to sign and suck balls.

@texasag1969 said:

Saw Christopher Parkening live 3 rows back many years ago. Wonderful! Take a listen sometime. Must be on YouTube.

Just did the guy kicks butt.

WSS

@westside-steve said:

Skilled guitarist always impress me.

WSS

Saw Christopher Parkening live 3 rows back many years ago. Wonderful! Take a listen sometime. Must be on YouTube.

@texasag1969 said:

Wife making me miss most of the game tonight to go to another place also recommended for Spanish cuisine. Dammit!

Went for Flamenco last night. Great with a phenomenal classical guitarist who also did several solos. WSS, Ghoolie and you would have loved it.

Skilled guitarist always impress me.

WSS

Went for Flamenco last night. Great with a phenomenal classical guitarist who also did several solos. WSS, Ghoolie and you would have loved it.

@tour2ma said:

I'll take some of that...

A paella bet?

Got reservations for a great place for that tomorrow night. Locals told us they go there.?

@texasag1969 said:

I predict Henry will make us wonder why we left him on the board.?

I'll take some of that...

A paella bet?

@tour2ma said:

Let he who has never locked onto and held onto a player beyond objective reason, cast the first stone...

... or something like that.

I predict Henry will make us wonder why we left him on the board.?

... or something like that.

@dutch-oven said:

PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan

Well, he was locked into Trent Richardson the same way. 

@dutch-oven said:

PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan

He's trolling is concerning the Browns!

@tour2ma said:

Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.

Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.

WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...

PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan

@dutch-oven said:

The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.

??

@dutch-oven said:

The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.

Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.

Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.

WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...

@westside-steve said:

I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.

• Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
•  so it's a wash?
• Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
•  Kaiser is coming on after 5 Games? Great and still behind Hogan. So with 5 more games Hogan could come on?
• Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
•  and Factor number 3 goes to Hogan. And again why couldn't that get better with as many NFL starts as Kizer?

Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game. 

 and no reason Hogan wouldn't improve his reads. So the argument is Hogan is ahead in everything but Kaiser might get better? A matter fact the only positive Kaiser has his arm strength. Remember da and Brandon Weeden and dr. Dave Mays?

Allow me to summarize my rankings... electoral college style...

• Mobility: Hogan-Kizer T-1, Kess 3
• Pocket Presense: Kizer 1, Hogan 2, Kess 3
• Reading: Kess  1, Hogan 2, Kizer 3

Totals: Kizer 5, Hogan 5, Kess 7 ... low man wins.... tiebreaker to arm-strength/upside. It doesn't matter how well you can read, if you can't/won't make the throws...

Final Verdict: Kizer

Now if you want the raw vote totals... well that'll cost you...

@tour2ma said:

Po,

I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.

• Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
•  so it's a wash?
• Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
•  Kaiser is coming on after 5 Games? Great and still behind Hogan. So with 5 more games Hogan could come on?
• Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
•  and Factor number 3 goes to Hogan. And again why couldn't that get better with as many NFL starts as Kizer?

Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game. 

 and no reason Hogan wouldn't improve his reads. So the argument is Hogan is ahead in everything but Kaiser might get better? A matter fact the only positive Kaiser has his arm strength. Remember da and Brandon Weeden and dr. Dave Mays?

WSS

This is an older video but a good breakdown of some of the common misconceptions regarding Hogan's game.

I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.

• Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
• Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
• Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...

Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game. He has learned. He is not yet consistently seeing the field, i.e., the receiver and the defender in the target area. He has at times as back-shoulder throws as early as Week 1 have shown, but not consistently. He also is not yet reliably adjusting throws to the situation. Specifically dialing down his fast ball, especially under pressure. His touch has to come.

Every current weakness in Kizer's game is not going to develop sitting on Game Day and taking limited 2nd string reps. If he is to improve, and there are no guarantees, he has to get the lions share of the work during the week and play on Sunday. And "three years" is a pipe dream. We are on a one-year schedule here. We need to know how aggressively to pursue a QB this coming off-season. Kizer, and only Kizer, has the potential to turn that dial down because...

And then there's arm strength... you cannot "teach" arm strength. That you are the only one seeing his arm as adequate should tell you something. It's not. Hogan's arm is not even Hoyer-strong.

But hey... Carr looked good again last nite..

@mld-woody said:

Most dedicated troll nominee: PoG

Not even close... undeserved...

Ditto for cal... at least in this section of the forum...

So after 4 games the jury says what? Kizer stinks? My parochial thinking...........Hanrati, Gilliam, and Bradshaw. Didn't it take 3 years until TB finally emerged?

My personal opinion is that once Kizer was given the team to run, he should have remained in the captain's seat no matter what. What confidence can he have now? Will he have an anxiety about being pulled if he does goof up? I think tantamount to a QB realizing his full potential is having an unflappable champion behind him, and of course the HC is the best champion a QB can have. Hue seems to be behind his QB in the beginning of the season when optimism is high, but then when the pressure caused by losing creeps in, he changes course and looks for a win by making a change. Is this purely a good coaching choice, or is it the HC getting frantic? We don't know.

Again, being only able to judge these things by my own life experiences I harken back to learning a musical instrument, and even still today, learning a difficult new piece. At first, I sound like total crap, Over and over and over I make mistakes, lose my place, and basically sound like I have never played before. But then, it comes to me and before you know it I am ripping through the piece. I think a young QB also needs to be able to log a tremendous number of screw-ups before getting yanked out of his chair. Is 5 games enough? How he hell do we know?

I thought at the time of the draft that the Browns would have a QB quagmire, and sadly, once again they do. Regardless of who we think should be playing QB for the Browns, whoever that person is, the HC is the one who unequivocally has the responsibility of making that decision. If he chooses the wrong guy it could cost him his job. However, that is part of the territory. Herein lies the root of my negative perception of Hue. For whatever the reasons, internal or external, he does not seem to be gung-ho, Socksure confident of his QB. I think a QB has a vital need to be supported by a coach like that. I don't know if the switch to Hogan and the switch back sends messages to the staff, players and FO, but my gut tells me it does. I think Hue, by not sticking to his guy and his guns has robbed this team of the kind of confidence it needs to grow.

The good news is, this is still football. Kizer goes out and has one good game and upsets a good team, and all of a sudden all this BS about pulling people and being disorganized evaporates into a distant memory.

The Browns need to catch a break. Kizer, Hue and we all need to catch a break. In my own life I have had times when every damned thing that could go wrong did, When you are in the middle of that, getting out seems impossible. This team needs a spark, a break, some good fortune; aven if it is an "On any given Sunday" kind of break. I promise you, at some point, a Browns player is going to stand up and provide that spark. Maybe Kizer rips the Titans to shreds this week. Kizer needs Hue to be behind him the rest of the way.

@jiggins7919 said:

I actually agree Orion, but if you were to ask Crow, I'm sure he'd tell you he still should've secured the ball.  But you're right, Kizer never should've REMOTELY blamed Crow AT ALL.  Kizer needed to say he completely messed up, and move on.  That's it.  

The bigger problem (to me anyways) is the panicking nature of Kizer in the red zone.  It was VERY evident on that pitch, and I'm guessing that same panic-stricken feeling is with Kizer whenever he's in the red zone.  Obviously I have no way to know this, but it's my guess to try and explain why Kizer is the worst NFL QB in the scoring area, and it's not even close.  It's to the point now where if we get into the red zone (and that's a big "if" with this team), you can bet your paycheck we're going to do the safest plays imaginable that have a low chance of success, but a lower chance of turning the ball over.  The one play that might work if run correctly is the QB draw near the goal line.  Heck, it works against US every darn time, so why can't we try it?  Issue with this play is Kizer also panics when he runs the ball.  He's missed running lanes, slid when he didn't have to, run out of bounds with yards to spare, and doesn't look comfortable AT ALL running the rock.  Anyways, the point is we're not going to be running anything too special in the red zone, so expect opposing teams to put 62 players in the box to stop the run, and expect a lot of FG's attempts.....which doesn't make me feel good AT ALL because our kicker is awful and our defense gives up 7, and not 3.  Good times. 

Meh... at this point, every time I'm in the redzone I make Kizer throw it or call whatever I would call normally. 

Adapt or die young man. 

But, I'm sure Hue is worried about his job so he will go conservative and call safe plays which will result in a field goal and a loss, so there will be no progression for Kizer and another loss for the Browns and dumb butt Jimmy will blow it up again and we will be back here in two years talking about the next coach losing his job.