I forgot to mention Erving in the TNF thread... same old Cam. And Fischer? He can't hold Joe's jock...

Tour, would love to read a breakdown on each of our draftees over the last two years on what you feel their future is with this team. 

Picks are chances to hit. The more picks you have, the more chances you have. We've had a lot of chances in two years... and we still have a lot... and that ain't bad.

Our track record?

• I'm already on record as saying we punted a bit in 2016. Did not fully know the team... Took our new process out of the garage for its shake down cruise (mixed metaphor intended)... So we massaged our picks sending a couple out for down and out and up moves, and then threw a net at a school of WRs in hopes of coming up seven (also intended). Not looking good there, but also landed a pair of Coleman's, DE's, LB, S and OG/OT... all contributing, if not starring, with further potential or quality backup depth. Overall we got descent larks for our haul.
• 2017? Fewer picks... more dealing, but up this time as well nabbing starters and players-in-training (PITs??? Need to work on that acromyn...). And we got even better marks.

Stay tuned...

PS: Plus this FO landed Collins and McCourty and Zeitler and Taylor and Coley... and extended Bito.

Tretter and Britt? Pick away at that bone... I like our average.

@tour2ma said:

Hey... I love snark!

Elway joined the Broncos FO as Executive VP in 2011. The then GM stayed on thru that draft season before leaving at which time Elway assumed the GM role. Let's look at his track record...

First his drafts...

This is a great post because it just shows how people's scouting/drafting skills get framed so differently based on a bunch of other things.

I think if you look at the last 7 drafts of just about every other team in the league they'd all look about the same.  A few hits and a lot more "misses".  The other thing that stands out is Elway, known as a brilliant GM, won a superbowl in his FIFTH year.  You could argue the only reason he lasted 5 years is he got a couple years of late prime Peyton Manning before piecing together a defense good enough to carry them to a championship.  He had TIME to build a team.

To me those drafts look like one game changing Superstar on Defense (who most people would've picked), a few really good impact players, and some decent role players.  

We are 2 drafts into this regime and people already think these guys suck at drafting.  It's just crazy.  We have an insane amount of draft capital and cap space and have a superstar in Garrett and a bunch of other young players with potential (and of course they won't all pan out but that's the way it goes!).  Everyone swings and misses but we have a lot more swings to take going forward and that's a really good thing

@unsympathetic said:

FFS.

"P.Manning For GM" is exactly why teams suck for a long time.  He was good on the field but that has no correlation to his decision-making after the chinstrap is unbuckled.

We have talent on this roster - it's not perfect but no roster is.  Look at the Ravens -- Name one player on their offense who you'd take on this roster this season.. I wouldn't take Flacco because his contract is terrible while his skill is barely a smurf's asshair above average.  Other than him, Browns are better at every position, including WR.  And their [our?] GM is supposed to be an icon even though he still hasn't drafted a usable WR since they became the Ravens.

Bringing in some fool won't get either raw talent or a legitimately successful scheme to win.  Williams will keep blitzing every other play and we'll keep losing until we get a AllPro starting QB.. and then magically when playing from ahead, blitzing every play will work.

So how much worse could it be? This level of incompetence is almost unparalleled in the history of the game.

WSS

@baconhound said:

Sorry wasn't me

Dang. Who was it that had that? It was some London dude. 

@ghoolie said:

He.is a moron.

Thought you were leaving though?

"P.Manning For GM" is exactly why teams suck for a long time.  He was good on the field but that has no correlation to his decision-making after the chinstrap is unbuckled.

We have talent on this roster - it's not perfect but no roster is.  Look at the Ravens -- Name one player on their offense who you'd take on this roster this season.. I wouldn't take Flacco because his contract is terrible while his skill is barely a smurf's asshair above average.  Other than him, Browns are better at every position, including WR.  And their [our?] GM is supposed to be an icon even though he still hasn't drafted a usable WR since they became the Ravens.

Bringing in some fool won't get either raw talent or a legitimately successful scheme to win.  Williams will keep blitzing every other play and we'll keep losing until we get a AllPro starting QB.. and then magically when playing from ahead, blitzing every play will work.

@westside-steve said:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html

I guess it's the old "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" idea.

WSS

He.is a moron.

@wargograw said:

Baconhound, bring back the dog smoking avatar. That was the best on this site other than maybe Zombo’s. 

Sorry wasn't me

what I would hope for or expect is that he'd be better than the seasoned professionals that have held that position up to now. I don't imagine that he would do worse. As a matter of fact I don't suppose any guy on this board would have done substantially worse.

WSS

@baconhound said:

I think the short, snarky, answer is, same as Elway's

Hey... I love snark!

Elway joined the Broncos FO as Executive VP in 2011. The then GM stayed on thru that draft season before leaving at which time Elway assumed the GM role. Let's look at his track record...

First his drafts...

I think we can agree that John's area of expertise is QB and maybe receivers. DL? Not so much... nor LBs or OL. TEs and DBs... maybe some.

Noteworthy is John's drafting of a QB in 5 of his 6 years. And of those he's picked he's done better on Day 3 (Dysert, Siemian, Kelly) than he has Days 1 and 2 (Osweiler, Lynch).

Overall to my eye after some good early years, the quality of his drafts seem to be tapering off. The areas they seem to fare the best in the draft? Looks like the DL followed by the OL.

So how has Denver contended during his time including their most recent SB win? FA... P. Manning, Demarcus Ware and Aquib Talib were all big name "gets" that helped propel them. FA is the place where franchises "on the verge" go to add those last couple pieces to make that last push to the Lombardi. What it can't do is sustain a team's excellence... at least not if you continually shop at the top of the FA market.

Elway might be a great Exec... he definitely seems to be a helluva salesman which is a big part of FA recruiting. In another year or two we'll see where Denver is and how good he is as "the Decider".

What he is not... what P. Manning is not... is some kind of omniscient, SuperScout, which best I can tell is what the P. Manning crowd is expecting. They may as well be wishing for the Toothfairy.

@harry-buffalo said:

his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy.

Exactly 

@calfoxwc said:

  I think our coaches are fine - Hue is terrific. However, I think Hue needs to hire an OC and let the OC call the plays. My Wife and I can'

sit there and predict what Hue will call.  Seems that he is trying to protect Kizer by running on first and second down so much, thathe is putting Kizer in trouble on 3rd and longs. He did, finally, surprise me and threw on first down last Sunday.and Hogan was the qb. Now, what the heyl is up with that?

  I will say, that as much as I respect Coleman, he wasn't on my list that draft. Like Canton Mike has told me several times, Michael Thomas was the bigger wr he wanted. Michael Thomas went in the 2nd round. The Browns went with Coleman. Wonder why. Oh,...the Browns had signed RGIII, out of Baylor, earlier that spring. Coincidence? I think not.

In two games, Michael Thomas, with the Saints,  has caught 15 passes for 176 yards and two touchdowns.Did anybody on this board want them to draft the small kid out of Baylor? I don't think so.  If we find out Kizer is only RGIII from another college...well,

Sorry Hue, but it's time to let somebody else pick the qb. Let me pick the next one, or just call me and ask my opinion. I want the kid

out of Northwestern. You heard it here first, on the Brownsboard. and btw, the wr I want in the first round with the other pick?

Sutton. NOT the big high ranked kid out of Notre Dame.

@baconhound said:

The problem that many "Doom & Gloomers" is when you trade your valuable picks to acquire more under the guise of, "hey we got this awesome plan" you can't play the hindsight is 20/20 card.

Garrett and another high pick, Shelton?  Ok, no issue let that play out.

Solid LBers.  Ok I'm on board with this if the 3 week Collins Concussion was nothing but a blip.  The Peppers thing is crazy.  The question I'd ask is, why is Peppers playing out of position and if you are a coach how do you look the other defensive players in the face and say, "dude suck it up I'm p[laying Peppers out of position to see if he might be able to play somewhere else".  I tend to believe someone got a boner over his tape and measurables and thought they could plugged him in anywhere and he'd be successful.  I remember Hue in post draft interviews talking about possibly playing him on offense.  He's what 20th in Kickoff Returns Average and 22nd in Punt Return Average.

O-Line that looks solid.  I agree but still hard to judge with a rookie QB and no "speed talent"

A raw TE?  Hanging your hat on raw TE, c'mon man.

Corey Coleman, that's laughable.

RB, doesn't matter who's back there when you're down 21 with 8 in the box.

QB, with each passing week all the current crop of college QBs look worse and worse.

Trust the Process

never trust the process unless you know what the process is. and you and i and every fan in between has no idea what the process is.

they want everyone in every part of biz and politics totday to be thoroughly transparent about every aspect of what they do, yet we don't know why the browns didn't pick wentz or goff or mariota or bortles or.......

and those were the front-runners. those that fell between the cracks like a prescott or a watson or whoever else always fall into other people's laps...........never ours.

@orion said:

But I hear ya.....we're better at stopping the run in this passing league.....and we're better at protecting our bum QB's.  It's just that we're worse at getting wins.

I will try cheering for bad plays next week. Not to be bitter, just to have something to cheer for. Plus maybe if enough of us do it the football gods will be confused...

@canton-dawg said:

I’m with you on Hue, I would let him stay but he MUST hire an OC.

I like the way the FO can wheel and deal, but they need to hire someone with some NFL experience.

The only issue I have with criticizing Hue's play calling is he's got zero talent at QB and WR.  Even more difficult when you find yourself down 14-17 points early.  I've been saying this consistently through Mangini, Shurmur, Chud, Pettine, etc.  You can coach Sheet talent.  Good players make coaches look great.  We'll see how many games the Packers win without Rodgers.

@harry-buffalo said:

I'll say my piece and leave it. I think Hue needs to stay, but with an OC to call plays. I get that he is a guy known for creating great offenses, but his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy. In terms of the FO, outside of hiring an actual team president, I don't see how we can change anything. I like most of the talent we have put on the field. I like how we maneuver the draft and some how trade away bad talent  for draft picks. They just need to finally pull the trigger on someone. I'm not going to fault them for not taking a guy who is only showing success running a RGIII style offense. People want to be the hind sight police, but most of the media and most of the people on here applauded both drafts after the fact, most people didn't want to see Watson selected (me included). 

To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done. 

I’m with you on Hue, I would let him stay but he MUST hire an OC.

I like the way the FO can wheel and deal, but they need to hire someone with some NFL experience.

Garrett and another high pick, Shelton?  Ok, no issue let that play out.

Solid LBers.  Ok I'm on board with this if the 3 week Collins Concussion was nothing but a blip.  The Peppers thing is crazy.  The question I'd ask is, why is Peppers playing out of position and if you are a coach how do you look the other defensive players in the face and say, "dude suck it up I'm p[laying Peppers out of position to see if he might be able to play somewhere else".  I tend to believe someone got a boner over his tape and measurables and thought they could plugged him in anywhere and he'd be successful.  I remember Hue in post draft interviews talking about possibly playing him on offense.  He's what 20th in Kickoff Returns Average and 22nd in Punt Return Average.

O-Line that looks solid.  I agree but still hard to judge with a rookie QB and no "speed talent"

A raw TE?  Hanging your hat on raw TE, c'mon man.

Corey Coleman, that's laughable.

RB, doesn't matter who's back there when you're down 21 with 8 in the box.

QB, with each passing week all the current crop of college QBs look worse and worse.

Trust the Process

@tour2ma said:

Serious question, HB... one I've yet to receive a reply to...

What are P. Manning's qualifications to be a GM?

I think the short, snarky, answer is, same as Elway's

@harry-buffalo said:

To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations,

Serious question, HB... one I've yet to receive a reply to...

What are P. Manning's qualifications to be a GM?

To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done.