@dutch-oven said:

And whose fault would that be?

Lots of people's.

@wargograw said:

And I didn’t say they’re world beaters. I said they’re significantly better than ours. 

And whose fault would that be?

@wargograw said:

My point is the 10 guys around Wentz (plus non-starters) are significantly better than ours. 

Did you read my rant on this? Yes, I wouldn't argue they are by definition better but you're fooling yourself to say those guys are world beaters either. The fact of the matter is Wentz is MAKING those guys better. That's what elite QB's do.

@texasag1969 said:

wargograw-"This team down the road is really talented." (in ref to the Browns)

Slight contradiction or are you saying they are talented but not playing like it yet?

Skill=talent plus experience. The 3 star RS senior who's been starting for 3 years (think Sean Porter) is as good as the 5 star true fish. Obviously a 5 star senior (Jonathan Allen, Jake Matthews, etc.) will blow both away. 

I think we have alot of talent sprinkled around this roster that won't show up until it's much more experienced. Of course, blowing up the regime will severely hinder the acquisition of said experience. 

Often when I say "that dude is talented," I actually am saying he's skilled rather than talented. Sometimes I say "he's so good" when in reality a guy isn't that good yet, he's just flashing some talent. I'll try to be more precise in the future. 

Gruden is wearing thin... quickly.

@wargograw said:

My point is the 10 guys around Wentz (plus non-starters) are significantly better than ours. 

wargograw-"This team down the road is really talented." (in ref to the Browns)

Slight contradiction or are you saying they are talented but not playing like it yet?

@wargograw said:

So you admit Jeffery is better. Thanks. 

do you have a point here?  We all know our skill players suck; my point was it's not like wentz is throwing to all stud wideouts(there is a reason jeffery couldnt get a lot of guaranteed money from anyone) and we have invested a that in our O line which should benefit our crappy qbs(or theoretically wentz).....you're far too caught up in this second guessing about how some good player/qb would do here when you just need to focus on the fact that we need GOOD players/qb.  If wentz is a good qb, and most people seem to think he is going to be one now, then we would benefit from a good qb regardless of any of that...because our qbs now suck

@wargograw said:

I can’t take you seriously if you’re going to keep saying Kenny Britt is just as good as Alston Jeffery. 

the idea was that one reason Britt is sucking so much is that there is no decent qb to throw to him....put Jeffery here and he is probably loafing around too with these bums throwing to him. I'd rather have Jeffery- perhaps you should ask your boy Sashi why he gave Britt all that guaranteed money

@tacosman said:

he'd be doing well.  It's not like he is throwing toin their prime randy moss and marvin harrison as wideouts now.  He has a pro bowl caliber tight end.  Their signing of Alshon was very similar to our signing of britt.  After we cut britt this year he'll actually get more total comp paid out than the eagles paid alshon for 2018.  Have you ever considered that if britt had signed with the eagles and had an actual qb throwing to him he may actually have been the serviceable starting veteran wideout we expected?  Dont forget we also invested a ton in our offensive line so our crappy qbs have something there at least......

so yeah, qbs who play well....play well.  I'm not going to pretend to know exactly how many tds and whatnot he would throw, but the point is he's played well and our qbs havent.  

I can’t take you seriously if you’re going to keep saying Kenny Britt is just as good as Alston Jeffery. 

@tacosman said:

thats not what I wrote...I said his performance quality is all that matters in the end.  How he gets there isn't a big concern.  

Ah... Well in that case...  I "apple-a-gize"....

@tour2ma said:

Disagree on your let the numbers talk approach... have to look behind them. 

thats not what I wrote...I said his performance quality is all that matters in the end.  How he gets there isn't a big concern.  

@tour2ma said:

Entirely possible... all depends on the head coming along.

If it doesn't? Well... we've spent more on failures haven't we?

We are experts on it.

@mark-o said:

Yes it is...but possibly Kizer just isn't that good. 

Entirely possible... all depends on the head coming along.

If it doesn't? Well... we've spent more on failures haven't we?

@tacosman said:

... you're still judging him like he's a prospect in college.  If  he's reined in to a degree that will be a limiting factor that will show in the performance.  

That is what I tend to do, i.e., evaluate players. Started with him at NDSU... no reason to stop now.

Mechanically I see Wentz improving over his NDSU days and his rookie season. Out old buddy Flipper has been working with him and Carson spent summertime working "with motion mechanics instructor Adam Dedeaux."

Head? Coming along as well... not yet "there"... but coming along.

Disagree on your let the numbers talk approach... have to look behind them. The reason he started quick last year was a very tight, limited scheme. As they opened up his playbook some thru the season his numbers fell. This year the playbook looks to even be further open, so he can handle a greater volume of plays, but it looks to me as if his options in a given play are limited with a heavy, close to exclusive, restricted options on a given play... i.e., the primary the play was designed to free up. Of course he has to recognize whether the D is cooperating per-snap, and he's doing that well.

@tour2ma said:

... he only knows one way, one style, one offense to coach.

The paradox is Kizer is the most equipped for that Offense.

Yes it is...but possibly Kizer just isn't that good. 

@mark-o said:

Hue just isn't that good of a coach unfortunately or...

... he only knows one way, one style, one offense to coach.

The paradox is Kizer is the most equipped for that Offense.

@tour2ma said:

Reasonable take... Although I think the gap between their WR corps, and RB stable, and ours is greater than you are letting on, the bigger issue is coaching.

Wentz still looks to be "reined in" to my eye and that's in a tailored offense in which he reportedly has input.... as in "like this not this, how about this" imput.

Not hearing any tails of that out of CLE... or Berea...

and as I pointed out elsewhere how much of the disaster that is Kenny Britt is due to the fact that we dont have a qb.  Kenny Britt ran routes and was a somewhat serviceable reciever for the rams the last 3 years....my guess is that if we had signed jeffries instead on a 1 year deal like the eagles did he would be doing about what kenny britt is now instead of being a serviceable target for them.  

my other point is that wentz will eventually be judged on what he actually does(I have no real position on the matter) and you're still judging him like he's a prospect in college.  If  he's reined in to a degree that will be a limiting factor that will show in the performance.  

@tour2ma said:

Reasonable take... Although I think the gap between their WR corps, and RB stable, and ours is greater than you are letting on, the bigger issue is coaching.

Wentz still looks to be "reined in" to my eye and that's in a tailored offense in which he reportedly has input.... as in "like this not this, how about this" imput.

Not hearing any tails of that out of CLE... or Berea...

I don't think theres any chance that is happening in Cleveland with Kizer.    Like him or not coming out of ND, the guy had some success playing at a top D1 school.   So why isn't our coaching staff studying the ND games in which Kizer played well and designing plays around those strengths?  Now maybe they are and he just sucks.  But the play calling and plays look the same with Kizer and with Hogan when he started.   An example of that was made throughout the Texans game of why were the Browns running plays that required Hogan to make that long deep out throw outside the numbers where he doesn't have the arm to make the throw (Kizer does have the arm, just not the accuracy) so why did we keep doing that?   Hue just isn't that good of a coach unfortunately or he just keeps doing the same thing over and over hoping for a new result.

Wentz still looks to be "reined in" to my eye and that's in a tailored offense in which he reportedly has input.... as in "like this not this, how about this" imput.

Not hearing any tails of that out of CLE... or Berea...

@wargograw said:

Really? So he’d be doing just as well? You believe that?

he'd be doing well.  It's not like he is throwing toin their prime randy moss and marvin harrison as wideouts now.  He has a pro bowl caliber tight end.  Their signing of Alshon was very similar to our signing of britt.  After we cut britt this year he'll actually get more total comp paid out than the eagles paid alshon for 2018.  Have you ever considered that if britt had signed with the eagles and had an actual qb throwing to him he may actually have been the serviceable starting veteran wideout we expected?  Dont forget we also invested a ton in our offensive line so our crappy qbs have something there at least......

so yeah, qbs who play well....play well.  I'm not going to pretend to know exactly how many tds and whatnot he would throw, but the point is he's played well and our qbs havent.  

@gumby73 said:

Hi,my names Gumby & am here to help 

Hey! That's my line...