@dutch-oven said:

If there's a QB worthy of the top Browns pick, I'm all for it. I still like Darnold, but will acknowledge that he's been up and down this season. 

As for the Browns ratings over the same period: (Browns rating first, league average second)

2016: 77.4/87.6

2015: 84.0/88.4

2014: 72.8/87.1

2013: 75.7/84.1

2012: 73.5/83.8

2011: 72.8/82.5

2010: 75.0/82.2

2009: 55.8/81.2

Imagine that....in no year during this period did Browns QBs perform even "average".   Whoda thunk it?  (well....just...everyone)

@the-gipper said:

OK, so....we may have two picks in the Top Ten next year.  Is it your plan to take someone with those picks that will put the Browns in the "above average" level?

(Also...just curious...as to what the Browns QB ratings were those years compared to the league average.

If there's a QB worthy of the top Browns pick, I'm all for it. I still like Darnold, but will acknowledge that he's been up and down this season. 

As for the Browns ratings over the same period: (Browns rating first, league average second)

2016: 77.4/87.6

2015: 84.0/88.4

2014: 72.8/87.1

2013: 75.7/84.1

2012: 73.5/83.8

2011: 72.8/82.5

2010: 75.0/82.2

2009: 55.8/81.2

@mjp28 said:

No problem I win every time I hire good lawyers. 

You win when you good lawyers say to you:  "don't go there", don't take up that fight....forget about that position you are taking...its a loser.

That would be your lawyers advice here.

And I have certainly had to give that very advice on many occasions.

@mjp28 said:

Well the "real world summary":

Baltimore got: all of the current players and coaches ----> they put on new uniforms -----> this was NO expansion team they were the BROWNS players

Cleveland got: empty uniforms ----> went through an expansion draft (with reduced benefits) ----> started with a NEW team

Sure this new concoction of old colors, name, records was the "old" BROWNS under this first ever agreement but the old, new Cleveland Browns were a new expansion team, period.

EOM. 

Good thing you are not a lawyer...you would lose every time.  If you want to insist that the Browns franchise moved....then I have $500.00 that says otherwise....and I will be glad to take your $500.

(by the way.....Baltimore got ALL of the current players/coaches?)   What was Bill Belichick's record with the Baltimore Ravens?

The Browns were an inactive franchise.  When they were to be reactivated....some method of providing players to the reactivated franchise had to be devised.  The expansion like draft was the method.

That is the difference between a "team" and a franchise.  NOTHING about the current Browns is the same as 10 years ago.....not the same owner, not the same coaches, not the same front office.....and except perhaps Joe Thomas, no other single player is the same.

So...does that make the 2017 Browns an "expansion team"  vs. the Browns of 10 years ago? Owners, GMs, coaches, players come and go....the franchise remains.

Baltimore got: all of the current players and coaches ----> they put on new uniforms -----> this was NO expansion team they were the BROWNS players

Cleveland got: empty uniforms ----> went through an expansion draft (with reduced benefits) ----> started with a NEW team

Sure this new concoction of old colors, name, records was the "old" BROWNS under this first ever agreement but the old, new Cleveland Browns were a new expansion team, period.

EOM. 

@mjp28 said:

To plow this field again for the 10,000th time.......

The Cleveland Browns relocation controversy, sometimes referred to by fans as "The Move",^[1][2] was the decision by then-Browns owner Art Modell to relocate the National Football League (NFL)'s Cleveland Browns from its long-time home of Cleveland to Baltimore during the 1995 NFL season. Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led the NFL to broker a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland. In return, Modell was permitted to move his football organization to Baltimore where he established the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens are officially regarded by the NFL as an expansion team that began play in 1996. The city of Cleveland agreed to demolish Cleveland Stadium and build a new stadium on the same site, and the NFL agreed to reactivate the Browns by the 1999 season through either an expansion draft or a relocated franchise. The Browns were officially reactivated in 1998 through the expansion process and resumed play in 1999.

The compromise between Cleveland, the NFL, and Modell was a first in North American professional sports. The compromise has been cited in franchise moves and agreements in other leagues, including those in Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, the National Basketball Association, and the National Hockey League.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1996: Cleveland Browns players and coaching staff moved to Baltimore and became the Ravens. The move was one of the most controversial in major professional sports history. In response to a fan revolt and legal threats, the NFL awarded a new franchise to Cleveland in 1999, which for historical purposes is considered a continuation of the original Browns franchise.

Picky, picky, picky.

Well...Modell moved some of his "organization"...if by that you mean personell moved.  That is not moving the franchise.

But....the NFL did not award a "new franchise" to Cleveland.   The franchise was the same.  Its just...again, maybe a new "organization"....in terms of new front office personell etc. did come in. 

Also....there was not a "legal threat".....because it was not a "threat"...it was a legal action....litigated and decided and ordered:  the Browns were NOT permitted by law to move at that time. Well....I guess they could have moved their operations to Baltimore....but they had to play their games in Cleveland for an additional 3 years. The settlement said:  Browns franchise stays in Cleveland...and will become inactive (in terms of on field play...it was NOT inactive in the business sense)...and Baltimore will receive a new franchise....ownership of which would be awarded to Modell. 

You can say picky, picky......but what it is is "accuracy".   What you may call "picky picky"  I call "Winning Facts".

I mean, its like this case I have going on right now.  I represent a Husband who has been paying spousal support for a long time.  Well, now the ex-wife has decided to shack up with her boyfriend.  In the decree it says that if she commences cohabitation with another that the spousal support will terminate.   Her defense is something along the order of "well, I still have to pay my share of living expenses where I am...so my alimony should not be cut off".    But..its like "Hello, McFly. Is anybody home?"    You have to pay living expenses no matter where you are. You think just because you are not a "kept woman".....and you have to pay some bills that that nullifies the terms of the divorce decree?  No.  you are cohabiting with another.  Those are winning facts. 

Same theory:  you think just because there became a team in Baltimore and because Modell was given ownership of it that the Browns no longer existed?  The Browns franchise was not the alter ego of Art Modell.  He just owned a majority of its stock (only 52% by the way...that was all he owned of the team).   The Browns were here before he was...and they are here after he was.  

@mjp28 said:

You mean put a chisel through Wikipedia and most every other media outlet? They have it that way not me. 

Well...they are stupid and wrong.

@the-gipper said:

The Franchise NEVER fuyucking moved to Baltimore.   Do we need to drive  a chisel through your skull to get that fact straight?

To plow this field again for the 10,000th time.......

The Cleveland Browns relocation controversy, sometimes referred to by fans as "The Move",^[1][2] was the decision by then-Browns owner Art Modell to relocate the National Football League (NFL)'s Cleveland Browns from its long-time home of Cleveland to Baltimore during the 1995 NFL season. Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led the NFL to broker a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland. In return, Modell was permitted to move his football organization to Baltimore where he established the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens are officially regarded by the NFL as an expansion team that began play in 1996. The city of Cleveland agreed to demolish Cleveland Stadium and build a new stadium on the same site, and the NFL agreed to reactivate the Browns by the 1999 season through either an expansion draft or a relocated franchise. The Browns were officially reactivated in 1998 through the expansion process and resumed play in 1999.

The compromise between Cleveland, the NFL, and Modell was a first in North American professional sports. The compromise has been cited in franchise moves and agreements in other leagues, including those in Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, the National Basketball Association, and the National Hockey League.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1996: Cleveland Browns players and coaching staff moved to Baltimore and became the Ravens. The move was one of the most controversial in major professional sports history. In response to a fan revolt and legal threats, the NFL awarded a new franchise to Cleveland in 1999, which for historical purposes is considered a continuation of the original Browns franchise.

Picky, picky, picky.

@the-gipper said:

The Franchise NEVER fuyucking moved to Baltimore.   Do we need to drive  a chisel through your skull to get that fact straight?

You mean put a chisel through Wikipedia and most every other media outlet? They have it that way not me. 

@dutch-oven said:

Here's the team QB rating of every Super Bowl winner since 2009, and in parentheses the NFL average:

2016: New England 109.6 (87.6)

2015: Denver 76.3 (88.4)

2014: New England 97.5 (87.1)

2013: Seattle 102.4 (84.1)

2012: Baltimore 86.4 (83.8)

2011: NY Giants 92.9 (82.5)

2010: Green Bay 98.9 (82.2)

2009: New Orleans 106.0 (81.2)

Now I don't think it's important to be a pass-happy team - a team that puts up 400 yards passing every week - but I still believe in today's NFL, you need to be an above average in the ability to pass the ball well.

OK, so....we may have two picks in the Top Ten next year.  Is it your plan to take someone with those picks that will put the Browns in the "above average" level?

(Also...just curious...as to what the Browns QB ratings were those years compared to the league average.

@texasag1969 said:

Yeah no team can get to a Superbowl with a season like that.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=YhIDWtjsONOwjwO7-4uoDQ&q=broncos+2015+schedule&oq=broncoes+201&gs_l=psy-ab.1.6.0i10k1l10.2445.7944.0.14395.13.12.0.0.0.0.160.1680.0j12.12.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.12.1672.0..0j46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0i20i264k1j0i46k1.0.d1uPzIH6SV8

Here's the team QB rating of every Super Bowl winner since 2009, and in parentheses the NFL average:

2016: New England 109.6 (87.6)

2015: Denver 76.3 (88.4)

2014: New England 97.5 (87.1)

2013: Seattle 102.4 (84.1)

2012: Baltimore 86.4 (83.8)

2011: NY Giants 92.9 (82.5)

2010: Green Bay 98.9 (82.2)

2009: New Orleans 106.0 (81.2)

Now I don't think it's important to be a pass-happy team - a team that puts up 400 yards passing every week - but I still believe in today's NFL, you need to be an above average in the ability to pass the ball well.

@mjp28 said:

First round picks can be a crap shoot but the BROWNS have come up snake eyes since 1999 a couple of good ones here and there.

National Football League, Modern Era (1970–present)19703Mike PhippsQBPurdue^[8]21Bob McKayOTTexas    197114Clarence ScottDBKansas    197218Thom DardenDBMichigan    197316Steve HoldenWRArizona State^[9]22Pete AdamsOGUSC    1974—No Pick——^[10]19755Mack MitchellDLHouston    19767Mike PruittFB/RBPurdue    197717Robert JacksonLBTexas A&M    197812Clay MatthewsLBUSC23Ozzie Newsome †TEAlabama^{[11    ]}197920Willis AdamsWRHouston^[12]    198027Charles WhiteRBUSC^[13]    198122Hanford DixonCBSouthern Miss    19823Chip BanksLB/WRUSC    1983—No Pick——^[14]198418Don RogersSUCLA    1985—No Pick——^[15]1986—No Pick——^[16]19875Mike JunkinLBDuke^{[17    ]}198821Clifford CharltonLBFlorida    198913Eric MetcalfRB/WRTexas^[18]1990—No Pick——^[19]19912Eric TurnerDBUCLA     19929Tommy VardellFB/RBStanford    199314Steve EverittCMichigan^[20]    19949Antonio LanghamCBAlabama29Derrick AlexanderWRMichigan^[21]    199530Craig PowellLBOhio State^[22]1996

Franchise moved to Baltimore, no team in Cleveland from 1996–19981997199819991Tim Couch *QBKentucky20001Courtney Brown *DEPenn State20013Gerard WarrenDTFlorida    200216William GreenRBBoston College^[23]  200321Jeff FaineCNotre Dame    20046Kellen Winslow IITEMiami^[24]20053Braylon EdwardsWRWolverines 200613Kamerion WimbleyLBFlorida State^[25] 20073Joe ThomasOTWisconsin^[26]22Brady QuinnQBNotre Dame^[27]2008—No Pick——^[27]200921Alex MackCCalifornia^[28]

20107Joe HadenCBFlorida  201121Phil TaylorDTBaylor  20123Trent RichardsonRBAlabama22Brandon WeedenQBOklahoma State   20136Barkevious MingoOLBLSU    20148Justin GilbertCBOklahoma State22Johnny ManzielQBTexas A&M   201512Danny SheltonDTWashington19Cameron ErvingCFlorida State    201615Corey ColemanWRBaylor    20171Myles Garrett *DETexas A&M25Jabrill PeppersDBMichigan29David NjokuTEMiami

The Franchise NEVER fuyucking moved to Baltimore.   Do we need to drive  a chisel through your skull to get that fact straight?

Zombo said:

Did I miss something?

1978 Cleveland Browns ... Ozzie Newsome HOF,  Clay Matthews, HOF nominee.

Zombo

They were not both in the Top Ten. Matthews was 12,  Ozzie #23

@dutch-oven said:

Problem is, the "strong defense/strong run game" teams don't win Super Bowls anymore. You need to be a strong passing team now. Doesn't mean running the ball isn't important, or defense isn't important, but good luck winning a Super Bowl by beating teams 20-13 every week.

Yeah no team can get to a Superbowl with a season like that.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=YhIDWtjsONOwjwO7-4uoDQ&q=broncos+2015+schedule&oq=broncoes+201&gs_l=psy-ab.1.6.0i10k1l10.2445.7944.0.14395.13.12.0.0.0.0.160.1680.0j12.12.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.12.1672.0..0j46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0i20i264k1j0i46k1.0.d1uPzIH6SV8

@dutch-oven said:

Problem is, the "strong defense/strong run game" teams don't win Super Bowls anymore. You need to be a strong passing team now. Doesn't mean running the ball isn't important, or defense isn't important, but good luck winning a Super Bowl by beating teams 20-13 every week.

I get that. But I'm trying to put myself in the position of the current FO, willing for 8 wins in 2018. Sadly there's still a long way for the SB. Also, I don't mean to forget the passing game, but make it less of a factor, because nowadays it is more difficult to make it work with current QBs. Teams like Denver and Seattle have won with offense and passing game not being the 'dominant' corp in the team.

@nero said:

That's it. Anyway, I think it is more difficult to fit a rookie QB in a NFL team and make an impact in the first year if everything around him doesn't work well. I believe college QBs are less and less prepared to play in pro level with the systems they run on college. At least in their first year. Wentz didn't have a great rookie year with the drop circus he had around him last year, and Watson has played at an oustanding level in an offense which for years has only lacked a QB.

Will we see one of those top draft picks traded for a veteran QB? For me the clever move would be creating the least QB dependable team possible. Strong run game, stout defense. 20 years with no franchise quaterback and after two drafts drafting QBs in 3rd and 2nd round you wanna give a shoot in the first at the probably one draft you have left? Risky business...

Problem is, the "strong defense/strong run game" teams don't win Super Bowls anymore. You need to be a strong passing team now. Doesn't mean running the ball isn't important, or defense isn't important, but good luck winning a Super Bowl by beating teams 20-13 every week.

@dutch-oven said:

And that's the ironic thing... the posters who are for keeping the organization intact and who are preaching patience could very well be betrayed for knee-jerk decisions if the people in charge remain for another offseason. Staffs who know they are on a short leash almost always make decisions with the idea of fast results, which often have negative long term ramifications. I call it the "Butch Davis Signing 35 Year Old Jeff Garcia and Drafting Winslow Instead of Roethlisberger Effect'.

That's it. Anyway, I think it is more difficult to fit a rookie QB in a NFL team and make an impact in the first year if everything around him doesn't work well. I believe college QBs are less and less prepared to play in pro level with the systems they run on college. At least in their first year. Wentz didn't have a great rookie year with the drop circus he had around him last year, and Watson has played at an oustanding level in an offense which for years has only lacked a QB.

Will we see one of those top draft picks traded for a veteran QB? For me the clever move would be creating the least QB dependable team possible. Strong run game, stout defense. 20 years with no franchise quaterback and after two drafts drafting QBs in 3rd and 2nd round you wanna give a shoot in the first at the probably one draft you have left? Risky business...

National Football League, Modern Era (1970–present)19703Mike PhippsQBPurdue^[8]21Bob McKayOTTexas    197114Clarence ScottDBKansas    197218Thom DardenDBMichigan    197316Steve HoldenWRArizona State^[9]22Pete AdamsOGUSC    1974—No Pick——^[10]19755Mack MitchellDLHouston    19767Mike PruittFB/RBPurdue    197717Robert JacksonLBTexas A&M    197812Clay MatthewsLBUSC23Ozzie Newsome †TEAlabama^{[11    ]}197920Willis AdamsWRHouston^[12]    198027Charles WhiteRBUSC^[13]    198122Hanford DixonCBSouthern Miss    19823Chip BanksLB/WRUSC    1983—No Pick——^[14]198418Don RogersSUCLA    1985—No Pick——^[15]1986—No Pick——^[16]19875Mike JunkinLBDuke^{[17    ]}198821Clifford CharltonLBFlorida    198913Eric MetcalfRB/WRTexas^[18]1990—No Pick——^[19]19912Eric TurnerDBUCLA     19929Tommy VardellFB/RBStanford    199314Steve EverittCMichigan^[20]    19949Antonio LanghamCBAlabama29Derrick AlexanderWRMichigan^[21]    199530Craig PowellLBOhio State^[22]1996

Franchise moved to Baltimore, no team in Cleveland from 1996–19981997199819991Tim Couch *QBKentucky20001Courtney Brown *DEPenn State20013Gerard WarrenDTFlorida    200216William GreenRBBoston College^[23]  200321Jeff FaineCNotre Dame    20046Kellen Winslow IITEMiami^[24]20053Braylon EdwardsWRWolverines 200613Kamerion WimbleyLBFlorida State^[25] 20073Joe ThomasOTWisconsin^[26]22Brady QuinnQBNotre Dame^[27]2008—No Pick——^[27]200921Alex MackCCalifornia^[28]

20107Joe HadenCBFlorida  201121Phil TaylorDTBaylor  20123Trent RichardsonRBAlabama22Brandon WeedenQBOklahoma State   20136Barkevious MingoOLBLSU    20148Justin GilbertCBOklahoma State22Johnny ManzielQBTexas A&M   201512Danny SheltonDTWashington19Cameron ErvingCFlorida State    201615Corey ColemanWRBaylor    20171Myles Garrett *DETexas A&M25Jabrill PeppersDBMichigan29David NjokuTEMiami

@tacosman said:

One of my biggest concerns if this FO is still around to do this draft is that with a 3-29 record in 2 seasons they will have the shortest view in the room and the whole draft is centered around getting to 8 wins at any cost in 2018 so that everyone has the best chance to keep their jobs a 4th year.  

A new FO going into year 1 may be able to feel more secure in making picks for the future.

And that's the ironic thing... the posters who are for keeping the organization intact and who are preaching patience could very well be betrayed for knee-jerk decisions if the people in charge remain for another offseason. Staffs who know they are on a short leash almost always make decisions with the idea of fast results, which often have negative long term ramifications. I call it the "Butch Davis Signing 35 Year Old Jeff Garcia and Drafting Winslow Instead of Roethlisberger Effect'.

@lbc-mike said:

Charlie Brown better kick the ball next year and not have Lucy make him fall flat on his back.

One of my biggest concerns if this FO is still around to do this draft is that with a 3-29 record in 2 seasons they will have the shortest view in the room and the whole draft is centered around getting to 8 wins at any cost in 2018 so that everyone has the best chance to keep their jobs a 4th year.  

A new FO going into year 1 may be able to feel more secure in making picks for the future.