@tour2ma said:

lol... impatient in his 20's...

*smh*...

Save ya some heartbreak, still... aggression will be dialed down in 2018.

at least you saw the Browns win games in your life. I've seen one winning season in my life as a fan. hahaha

*smh*...

Save ya some heartbreak, still... aggression will be dialed down in 2018.

@stillmotion said:

I just want to see them be aggressive this offseason. I think i'll die in my twenties from a stroke if the Browns lose 10 or more games in 2018 and then again in 2019.

Well he was a fine young man. He always thought he'd go by a stroke, but he died of a broken heart after going 4-60 from 2016 thru 2019. We hardly knew him. If he'd lasted another 20 years maybe he could have been saved from such a fate.

@tour2ma said:

Were also #1 in Deadmoney those two years.... and not by a little. I'm sure you can spin that as a negative, but to my mind it's not. This FO... this owner... has been willing to pay players who don't belong to leave. They've owned up to mistakes, albeit mostly not of this regime's doing, to take the pain now, when they can afford to, in order to look at more players as they build (pour?) the foundation for a sustainable franchise.

The earlier years you noted when we were around the $20mm mark were a warning. A not very good team without a franchise QB could barely afford to keep one one with that small of a cushion.

This FO is playing chess. They are pre-managing the cap. When the team is ready, so too will be the payroll.

I just want to see them be aggressive this offseason. I think i'll die in my twenties from a stroke if the Browns lose 10 or more games in 2018 and then again in 2019.

@stillmotion said:

After moneyball starts

2016 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $46,108,169

2017 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $62,310,269

Were also #1 in Deadmoney those two years.... and not by a little. I'm sure you can spin that as a negative, but to my mind it's not. This FO... this owner... has been willing to pay players who don't belong to leave. They've owned up to mistakes, albeit mostly not of this regime's doing, to take the pain now, when they can afford to, in order to look at more players as they build (pour?) the foundation for a sustainable franchise.

The earlier years you noted when we were around the $20mm mark were a warning. A not very good team without a franchise QB could barely afford to keep one one with that small of a cushion.

This FO is playing chess. They are pre-managing the cap. When the team is ready, so too will be the payroll.

@stillmotion said:

I'm not saying this FO hasn't done good things, they have. I was referring to Jimmy even being below the Cap back in the farmer days. The stats I pulled out were from back before the beginning of the season. I liked the Collins move and beefing up to O-Line. I guess my point is I'd like to see us in the next 3 years be one of the teams that spends the most Cap room. I don't want to continue to draft 14 rookies every year for 5 more years because we just don't have enough space for them. I thought the Joe Thomas resigning was just a PR move to keep him from retiring.

Incentive... not PR.

Might be 4 years, but we will be rising in our spend. Again... big FA acquisitions are the final stage of building. When know the pieces we need to add to put us over the top for a deep playoff run and we're close enough to that promised land to attract ring-hungry studs.

@calfoxwc said:

well, I will be going to the Browns game vs the Jags, so I guarantee

a Browns win !

and that's a fact, Jag !

The Great Calfoxy Guarantee?

@boo-fagley said:

You have to watch those Gipsons.

Ex-Brother from another mother.   Now he is just the black sheep.

@nero said:

I hope this changes and the FO becomes more aggresive as the defining years for the process come (year 3 and 4), aiming higher both in draft and FA, but for me what they have done, after studying it, makes some sense.

I’m not sure this HC & FO will see a year 3 or 4 if this team goes 0-16.

There will definitely be some changes coming.

it just doesn't matter to them. Some players who really care about being the best - and winning - and the game...won't go to a team that is mired in not being a good team. These guys bail on teams at the first chance of bigger money,and more chance of going to the playoffs/superbowl. So, they leave, even if they take less money to make the move.This won't change until the Browns get all cylinders running and start winning.

   You add some pass defense, a star wr, and a franchise qb (yes, jury is still out on Kizer so far...but I don't know...)...and the Browns are going to be headed to the playoffs, and looking at being superbowl contenders.

That's a lot closer than they used to be, with serious lack of talent on the offensive line, defensive line, lbs...just can't fix everything with two drafts. Especially with drafting players with no heart for the game like Gordon... and players who can't stay healthy, like Coleman, when Michael Thomas was on the board.... a car with no steering wheel and no tires just wrecks, or doesn't go anywhere.

And I still wish we had had a chance to see Joe Haden at FS. and it seems that Hue doesn't demand self-discipline from his players - and some players seem to falter because of that. I don't know. But this fo needs a long sitdown with Kosar, Rutigliano, Bob Golic, etc etc etc...and learn how to find players who love the game.

@stillmotion said:

1) Pryor isn't Julio Jones or AJ Green, is he? Quit trying to strawman my argument.

2) In 2015 the Browns had the 3rd most cap space available. 

Since Haslam has been owner

2013 - Browns rank 6th in cap space available - $13,975,965

2014 - Browns rank 2nd in cap space available - $21,392,977

2015 - Browns rank 3rd in cap space available - $22,119,840

After moneyball starts

2016 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $46,108,169

2017 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $62,310,269

Has any other team consistently spent so little and been a great contender? Pettine wasn't lying about not having enough talent. People can blame Hue, Pettine, Farmer, Sashi, but the guy writing the checks is free of any blame? Jimmy said we'd be very competitive "in 2018 and 2019" verbatim. He's 20-69 as an owner, and raised ticket prices with this product. Mark my words.... IF We're in the top 3 of cap space left available the next three straight years, we will not be a playoff caliber team. Jimmy is the only thing toxic about this team.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

I'm not going to defend the salary cap approach. I've criticized it in other posts, and I think that things could have been done differently, mostly in FA and particulary with receivers. 

I'm going to try to explain what I think they might be doing. 

You get a team with losing record, and with many years of misery. First of all the things you can see in such a team is a 'losing spirit'. There are few who believe they can do great things with the team or they give up as soon as results start being bad every season. This has happened with many teams that through years have become 'retirement houses' for players who have already hit the top of their game and are in a downhill.

They rip off the team, and try to get a young team that grows together. I repeat, I'm not defending it, I think they should have kept more veterans. And as the players are young, they have rookie contracts, increasing the cap space. They make mistakes together, they lose together (they have done this greatly), they learn together. In FO eyes, this protects them, as they have put together another 'losing team', but much younger, so you can say that they can get better, and much cheaper, so you can say 'well, they suck but we're not spending much'. 

The same goes with the QB, they haven't drafted one in the first round because if you do it and fail, is an early ticket to be fired. Any Front Office which drafts in the first round a QB, links its destiny to him.

Once you have your new team's core set up, you can see what is missing and add it via FA, in a way that the new free agents can't screw your locker room.

I hope this changes and the FO becomes more aggresive as the defining years for the process come (year 3 and 4), aiming higher both in draft and FA, but for me what they have done, after studying it, makes some sense. I hope we don't sit over a 60 million cap space next year. 

And again, I'm not defending them, I'm trying to understand their approach.

@unsympathetic said:

1) Pryor wasn't and isn't worth anything close to the money he's making. Same can and has been said about Britt.

Every catch both Britt and Pryor have made in a game this year [not in practice - those guys are nifty without pads] can be made by louis or treggs.  Record wouldn't be any different with the extra money on the roster.

spending more money does NOT translate to better outcomes.. it's money and other things... one factor is not the solution

2) You might want to look at the record and stats the Browns had when we had the most expensive defense in the league, oh so long ago.

1) Pryor isn't Julio Jones or AJ Green, is he? Quit trying to strawman my argument.

2) In 2015 the Browns had the 3rd most cap space available. 

Since Haslam has been owner

2013 - Browns rank 6th in cap space available - $13,975,965

2014 - Browns rank 2nd in cap space available - $21,392,977

2015 - Browns rank 3rd in cap space available - $22,119,840

After moneyball starts

2016 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $46,108,169

2017 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $62,310,269

Has any other team consistently spent so little and been a great contender? Pettine wasn't lying about not having enough talent. People can blame Hue, Pettine, Farmer, Sashi, but the guy writing the checks is free of any blame? Jimmy said we'd be very competitive "in 2018 and 2019" verbatim. He's 20-69 as an owner, and raised ticket prices with this product. Mark my words.... IF We're in the top 3 of cap space left available the next three straight years, we will not be a playoff caliber team. Jimmy is the only thing toxic about this team.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

@stillmotion said:

spending more money usually results in getting better players. or you can keep ricardo louis and bryce treggs and go 1-24.

1) Pryor wasn't and isn't worth anything close to the money he's making. Same can and has been said about Britt.

Every catch both Britt and Pryor have made in a game this year [not in practice - those guys are nifty without pads] can be made by louis or treggs.  Record wouldn't be any different with the extra money on the roster.

spending more money does NOT translate to better outcomes.. it's money and other things... one factor is not the solution

2) You might want to look at the record and stats the Browns had when we had the most expensive defense in the league, oh so long ago.

@wargograw said:

You’re right. My bad on that one. It was the right move though. 

Well you could argue Gipson wanted too much, which is an understandable argument. You could also argue that the Browns suck at resigning players we develop (past this FO and coach). You could also defend Sashi for the fact that we're a perennial loser, and it's hard to attract free agents if we're such a losing team in a cold climate. But, if we don't make any major signings this next offseason (I'm talking studs), and IF we're top 3 in cap leftover next season, It'll definitely raise a red flag to me that Jimmy is being a F#$%ing cheapskate. You can argue, "oh, he helped pay for the stadium", but he knows he'll get that money back, especially if he has $60 million per year in cap left over every single year.

Remember back in 2015 when Haslam said we wouldn't target free agents before the Sashi/Depo process and moneyball

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/161357/haslam-says-browns-wont-be-players-in-free-agency

Haslam said the reaction to the ticket price increase was as expected. He quipped that nobody calls to say thanks, and said he’s “probably the most sensitive person to raising ticket prices.”

yet Jimmy RAISED ticket prices back then.

My fight and argument is with Jimmy, because I think he's a shitty owner. I think the way he manages people sucks, and if he went with Hue over Sashi's head to get McCarron, then what does that tell you about him as an owner and a person.

@stillmotion said:

no you're wrong (again)

You’re right. My bad on that one. It was the right move though. 

a Browns win !

and that's a fact, Jag !

@tour2ma said:

42? I only got 37! Effin' yahoo FF...

I missed the game score by a whole 4 points... I was yelling for PTG to go for it up 20 late instead of kickin' a FG. But for the LeBeau factor, they might have...

Well I think you can live with 37 in your reduced value FL......or mine is overvalued?  Darn commissioners screwing with the values. 

@tour2ma said:

Jimmah and the FO are inseparable when it comes to spending... so yes, you are talking about the FO... which in addition to the Collins dice-roll has spent on:

• the Bito extension,
• Zeitler,
• Joe's raise... while he was already under contract...
• Tretter... bit of a pattern in these first four...
• McCourty and Taylor... there.. got off the OL.

I'm not saying this FO hasn't done good things, they have. I was referring to Jimmy even being below the Cap back in the farmer days. The stats I pulled out were from back before the beginning of the season. I liked the Collins move and beefing up to O-Line. I guess my point is I'd like to see us in the next 3 years be one of the teams that spends the most Cap room. I don't want to continue to draft 14 rookies every year for 5 more years because we just don't have enough space for them. I thought the Joe Thomas resigning was just a PR move to keep him from retiring.

I missed the game score by a whole 4 points... I was yelling for PTG to go for it up 20 late instead of kickin' a FG. But for the LeBeau factor, they might have...

@canton-dawg said:

Peppers is a non-factor due to where he plays, certainly no fault of his.

I would say overpaying a free agent is the norm in the NFL.

Is Gip worth $35 million? How about Kenny Britt...is he worth $32 million?

I don't know about that Gip but our Gip is easily worth that in today's money. 

It is shocking though what professional athletes get now, are they worth it? I remember just before the Indians caught fire the entire TEAM payroll was just over $8 million and future stars like A.Belle, Thome and Lofton making at or near the league minimum of $100,000......which is fabulous money even today for us working stiffs, more like a lottery hit. 

Now I believe that NFL (or NCAA?) players deserve to be well compensated more than any other sport ue to the deviating injuries and possible very short careers but really Gip and  Britt pulling that kind of cash, really?

And yes everything in life is relative like are Stallone and Swartenagger really worth $25 million for a few months work making a movie -BUT- are the ticket prices we stiffs pay also worth it, a family of 4 going to a pro football game Cost what now? 

Sorry but it just rubs me wrong....occasionally that is unless I hit tonight's Mega Millions. 

@tour2ma said:

Way to hone in on the one season that's an anomaly in his career...

... and top it with an event after the decision. Hindsight is always impresses me.

Him being a locker room cancer isn't an anomaly. I'm sure that comes with no additional charge.

@canton-dawg said:

We could talk about Britt’s 2013 season, you know the one where he caught a whopping 96 yards.

Or we can talk about Hue benching his azz this year...money well spent!

Way to hone in on the one season that's an anomaly in his career...

... and top it with an event after the decision. Hindsight is always impresses me.

@gumby73 said:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/11/16/16667272/browns-activate-corey-coleman-but-say-goodbye-to-once-hyped-kasen-williams  

 This Mud's for you