@tour2ma said:

But that wasn't Vermeil's first gig...

No.   I didn't know that had to be a criteria for the question.   He took the Eagles to the SB.   One of only a handful of coaches to take 2 teams.

@boo-fagley said:

Belichick

2000 5 - 11

2001 Super Bowl Champ

Parcells

1995 6 - 10

1996 Lost Super Bowl

Rams went from 4-12 in 1998 to winning the SB in 1999.   As HC of the Rams  mr.finger Vermiel went 5-11 in 1997, then 4-12 in 1998, then 13-3 and SB Champs in 1999.

@dutch-oven said:

Thoughts?

Pretty good stuff...

Having just seen our 2018 opponents, it's hard for me to see 5-11 let alone .500.

@nero said:

Honest question: How many coaches have developed from low record first years to Superbowl contenders or playoff coaches? 

I ask it because Marvin Lewis and Chuck Pagano, for example, survived some not-so-great years but because they had great years in their career beginnings (Lewis' first two years were 8-8 then to rise to 11-5 and reach playoffs 7 times). 

I think expansion team inaugural HCs like Landry are a special case. Noll is a good example. I can think of a couple others...

• Bill Parcels' first NYG team went 3-12-1.
• Jimmy Johnson dismembered the 'Boys and went 1-15 in year one.
• Pete Carroll was a one and done 6-10 with the Jets and had to retreat to college coaching before he got his next pro shot... from which he also had to retreat... then came SEA.
• Marv Levy started badly in KC rose to mediocrity before being fired, retreating and relaunching in BUF where he stumbled badly to start his second HC gig.

@dutch-oven said:

Belichick I believe went 5-11 for New England in his first season.

True, but he had years of HC under his belt by then including an 11-5 season. He was 6-10 in his 1st year in CLE.

He is a coffee Fletcher. 3-13. +/- 1 win.

@dutch-oven said:

Reminds me of another con artist....

Believe me.

@thenew23 said:

Can't argue with the OP.

Haslam cannot self-evaluate. What the hell qualifications does he think he possesses to evaluate an NFL HC? 

My speculation: "I pay the bills, so I make the decisions..." Total EGO BS.  We all have to pay for his inferiority complex.  The guy needs therapy...

Reminds me of another con artist....

Haslam cannot self-evaluate. What the hell qualifications does he think he possesses to evaluate an NFL HC? 

My speculation: "I pay the bills, so I make the decisions..." Total EGO BS.  We all have to pay for his inferiority complex.  The guy needs therapy...

@orion said:

I have mixed feelings about Mangini....the rat.

He treated the players like kids.  Making them do a lap if they jumped offsides or caused a false start and stuff, in practice. But did that lower penalties in games?  I think it did.

He emphasized special teams.  If you were on the lower end of the roster and wanted to be 'up' for the game...then you had to be able to excel in ST.  If you didn't, somebody else was up for the game and you sat in street clothes.  So, he had pretty good ST.

Moot point anyway.  He's a cherio floating in the milk.

Mangini kept a handful of special team veterans on the team, which also explains why the Browns were good on special teams during that time period. Guys like Ventrone, Costanzo, etc. Gritty Italian guys who would never smell playing time on offense or defense. The counter to that is when you have guys on the roster who are strictly special teams guys, your overall depth suffers.

@syd said:

just saying compared to who we have had as H.C

I have mixed feelings about Mangini....the rat.

He treated the players like kids.  Making them do a lap if they jumped offsides or caused a false start and stuff, in practice. But did that lower penalties in games?  I think it did.

He emphasized special teams.  If you were on the lower end of the roster and wanted to be 'up' for the game...then you had to be able to excel in ST.  If you didn't, somebody else was up for the game and you sat in street clothes.  So, he had pretty good ST.

Moot point anyway.  He's a cherio floating in the milk.

@dutch-oven said:

You spelled "rat" wrong.

just saying compared to who we have had as H.C

@syd said:

mangini was a god

You spelled "rat" wrong.

@orion said:

Splitting hairs.

Same situation...slightly different reasons.

LOL hardly "splitting hairs"

@richiswhere said:

Na not the same Homlgren chose to keep Mangini. Dorsey has no choice when the owner says the coach is staying.

Tom Landry

Splitting hairs.

Same situation...slightly different reasons.

Tom Landry

@dutch-oven said:

.......So IMO Hue has to get the Browns close to .500 next season to continue to be the head coach for the future. Considering these last two seasons, that would be damn near miraculous. If true, then it feels like a complete exercise in futility - another wasted year for the organization. Thoughts?

1. Obviously the BROWNS have a loaded draft card and must have an A to A+ draft, the needs are still there primarily on offense. I'd like to see them get the best WR in the draft maybe with the best RB or OL in round 1 then address the QB situation. Trade up in a QB deal maybe. 

2. The strength of this team now is the defense keep reinforcing that in rounds 2 and beyond. 

3. A 6+ win season in Cleveland and they might throw a parade, this team was close to several wins earlier in the season then faded in any event Kizer will be the 1st or 2nd team QB but a good competition would sure be healthy -but- nobody on this board has any idea on what that might look like until after the draft and camps begin.

4. Hue might be irrelevant in the first half of the season at least unless they really bomb and  he might be yanked. A wasted year? I don't think that the BROWNS can afford another one of those. I also can not wait to see how season ticket sales go next year......they better have a great draft! 

@dutch-oven said:

When Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert came to town years ago, they inherited Eric Mangini. Instead of getting rid of him and hiring their guy, they kept Mangini and gave him a season to "audition" for them. It went predictably poorly, in fact the Browns avoided drafting front seven defensemen that season because they didn't want to draft for the wrong scheme if Mangini was canned. Pretty much, it was a wasted year in the Holmgren run organizationally. 

This leads me to what is going on right now. The Browns are 1-31 under Hue and this coaching staff. In theory, a 5-11 season would be a HUGE jump for the Browns next season, in comparison to the first two seasons, but at the end of the day, it's still a 5-11 season. I think that still gets Hue fired.

So IMO Hue has to get the Browns close to .500 next season to continue to be the head coach for the future. Considering these last two seasons, that would be damn near miraculous. If true, then it feels like a complete exercise in futility - another wasted year for the organization. Thoughts?

Nailed it. 

@nero said:

It tells you something when the first two coaches that come to mind were from more than 30 years ago... 

Belichick I believe went 5-11 for New England in his first season.

But yeah, you are right.

@dutch-oven said:

When Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert came to town years ago, they inherited Eric Mangini. Instead of getting rid of him and hiring their guy, they kept Mangini and gave him a season to "audition" for them. It went predictably poorly, in fact the Browns avoided drafting front seven defensemen that season because they didn't want to draft for the wrong scheme if Mangini was canned. Pretty much, it was a wasted year in the Holmgren run organizationally. 

This leads me to what is going on right now. The Browns are 1-31 under Hue and this coaching staff. In theory, a 5-11 season would be a HUGE jump for the Browns next season, in comparison to the first two seasons, but at the end of the day, it's still a 5-11 season. I think that still gets Hue fired.

So IMO Hue has to get the Browns close to .500 next season to continue to be the head coach for the future. Considering these last two seasons, that would be damn near miraculous. If true, then it feels like a complete exercise in futility - another wasted year for the organization. Thoughts?

^ Exactly what will happen and exactly why I won't see a Browns snap next year...... Book another horrific season next year, followed by a new head coach and his staff which will lead to a 3-5 win season the following year. 

On and on it will go.  

@dutch-oven said:

Chuck Noll was 1-13 in his first season (1969?) in Pittsburgh comes to mind.

John McKay started 0-26 for the expansion Tampa Bay Bucs in his first two seasons. In year four TB played the Rams in the NFC Championship Game.

It tells you something when the first two coaches that come to mind were from more than 30 years ago... 

@nero said:

Honest question: How many coaches have developed from low record first years to Superbowl contenders or playoff coaches? 

I ask it because Marvin Lewis and Chuck Pagano, for example, survived some not-so-great years but because they had great years in their career beginnings (Lewis' first two years were 8-8 then to rise to 11-5 and reach playoffs 7 times). 

Chuck Noll was 1-13 in his first season (1969?) in Pittsburgh comes to mind.

John McKay started 0-26 for the expansion Tampa Bay Bucs in his first two seasons. In year four TB played the Rams in the NFC Championship Game.