@boo-fagley said:

Same old party line.

Winning franchises in the Super Bowl conversation and post season year after year dont shoot in the dark.

Pretty sure you're the GOP'er, if there is one in this running "conversation"...

I do agree on the franchises comment. Just doubt your ability to discern the relative contributions of any FO staff below the level of GM.

@hoorta said:

LOL, which we know (regarding Kizer) the odds of a mid second round pick with accuracy issues in college were not good. To go Ghoolie on you- wasted pick.    

As are most picks... so like Phoolie, you are playing the odds.

@tour2ma said:

Easy... that his chances of developing into an NFL starter were commensurate with a mid-2nd-round pick.

LOL, which we know (regarding Kizer) the odds of a mid second round pick with accuracy issues in college were not good. To go Ghoolie on you- wasted pick.    

@hoorta said:

I'd love to know what the consensus was on Kizer.    

Easy... that his chances of developing into an NFL starter were commensurate with a mid-2nd-round pick.

@boo-fagley said:

Wolfe had a job offer from Gruden.

You would rather have Yoo as HC instead of Gruden? Gruden has forgotten more about football than Yoo will ever know.

If Wolfes job performance was that bad then why didnt the Packers get rid of him long before this? Wolfe was asked to stay with the Packers after losing out on GM.

The Browns are assembling a front office from winning/post season franchises and youre sad that Sashi and his pencil pushers got the axe.

Was Gruden going to make Wolf a coach?

Hue vs. Gruden... interesting question. Can I go with neither? If yes, then I do. If no, then I still do. I put Gruden right "up there" in the pantheon of HCs with Rex Ryan.

Not saying Wolf's job performance was bad. Just that it was not good enough to win him the Pack's GM job. Are you saying you have direct knowledge of his player contributions?

The Browns have been assembling FO's from pieces of winning franchises for decades. Whether this one works out better than the attempts to date is TBD. I celebrated our jumping off this merry-go-round. I am sad that Jimmah did not have the stones to see the FO experiment through, but so far the bilk of the assembled "pencil pushers" seem to be faring just fine...

@tour2ma said:

. And one more "one last time"... player evaluation was never Sashi's job.

Yeah- it was all about building consensus- whatever that is\was. I'd love to know what the consensus was on Kizer.    

@gumby73 said:

feel better.. Dorsey was out in June  after draft at KC..Erving was traded in August, so new KC GM Brett Veach was off to a great start..papers on Farmer? closes thing to paper, was that sweat towel request in his last presser..

lol... thanks... that helped a little.

@tour2ma said:

 but Dorsey missed Cam Erving. All GMs "miss". If there was "paper" on Farmer, I did not see it.

feel better.. Dorsey was out in June  after draft at KC..Erving was traded in August, so new KC GM Brett Veach was off to a great start..papers on Farmer? closes thing to paper, was that sweat towel request in his last presser..

2. Most if not all of our players we drafted with show little to no improvement from the beginning of the season to the end of it. We will argue whether it was the coaching staffs fault or the FO.

3. Coach gets fired and we pick in the top 5 of the next draft.

4. Rinse and repeat. 

@hoorta said:

1) Grigson is gone.

3) Grigson sure didn't evaluate Trent Richardson properly.    Your scepticism over Dorsey's talent as a GM is duly noted, maybe I should adopt a wait and see attitude too.... Farmer looked good on paper, but then when some of the behind the scenes things started coming to light (Justin Gilbert) yikes. I still blame Haslam and the Homeless Guy for foisting Manziel on the Browns.  Regarding Wolfe, he has more experience evaluating talent in his foot than Sashi had in his entire body. 

Regarding Sashi- I'm sure you know all about "The Hatchet Man" in the business world. Top management brings in a guy "to clean house" and then when things are sufficiently cleaned out personnel- wise the hatchet man gets hatcheted. I've seen it happen at least three times in my working career. 

My ex-Dad-in-Law was a hatchet man for Allied Chemical. I forget how many Plant managers he sent packing. Ultimately one he swung at and missed, rose above him and guess what...

1. Well that was fast.

3. Grigson missed TR; lower stakes, but Dorsey missed Cam Erving. All GMs "miss". If there was "paper" on Farmer, I did not see it... heard about it plenty, but did not see it. And what I heard was success by association not contribution. And one more "one last time"... player evaluation was never Sashi's job.

@tour2ma said:

1) IIRC Grison is here because of his past relationship with Berry, so I suspect that as long as Berry is here, then Grigson has a shot at staying... although perhaps not in his current role which is not being "a cook". DePo's status is more interesting and likely far better protected.

2) As for looking back... every year every team passes on multiple players every fan base wails about. I see no sense in doing so, so I don't play that game excepting those occasions when even I had conviction about the worth of a player at the time we passed. Last time that happened was Khalil Mack. Young Clay? Yeah, I wanted him too, but as much for the wrong reasons like family legacy, than the right ones, i.e., actually knowing his worth. I did not work at player evaluations back in 2009.

3) Yes, he was a bad GM, but as in the case of all traditional GMs he once distinguished himself as a talent evaluator. A story not entirely different than Dorsey...

Bitching? Hardly. Skeptical? You bet and for pretty good reason. I was sold Ray Farmer. His KC contributions were somehow "divined" and he became the hope around here. And I bought into his soul-crushing prospects... fool me once.

Maybe landing a Packers' "also-ran" is a coup, but what specifically in Wolf's job performance can you point to that says it is?

1) Grigson is gone. Looks like Huey is bringing in his old pal Zampeze to be QB coach, fortunately not as OC. 

2) I play that game more often- because 90% of the time I'm right in my assessments- at least on first round picks. Quinn, Weeden, Manziel for starters. (Most recently Kizer) We would have drafted LaDanian Tomlinson, and wouldn't have had to bother with Willie Green if Larry had been GM. Oh, I've had a few misses, Couch and Haloti Ngata, but we wouldn't have had the level of suckage over the last 20 years either. 

3) Grigson sure didn't evaluate Trent Richardson properly.    Your scepticism over Dorsey's talent as a GM is duly noted, maybe I should adopt a wait and see attitude too.... Farmer looked good on paper, but then when some of the behind the scenes things started coming to light (Justin Gilbert) yikes. I still blame Haslam and the Homeless Guy for foisting Manziel on the Browns.  Regarding Wolfe, he has more experience evaluating talent in his foot than Sashi had in his entire body. 

Regarding Sashi- I'm sure you know all about "The Hatchet Man" in the business world. Top management brings in a guy "to clean house" and then when things are sufficiently cleaned out personnel- wise the hatchet man gets hatcheted. I've seen it happen at least three times in my working career. 

@hoorta said:

Speaking of Tour- does this mean Grigson is out with the hiring of Wolfe? What's the old saying, too many cooks spoil the broth? We still have DePodesta hanging around too. 

If you want to get really ill, take a look at the guys we passed on that year.

IIRC Grison is here because of his past relationship with Berry, so I suspect that as long as Berry is here, then Grigson has a shot at staying... although perhaps not in his current role which is not being "a cook". DePo's status is more interesting and likely far better protected.

As for looking back... every year every team passes on multiple players every fan base wails about. I see no sense in doing so, so I don't play that game excepting those occasions when even I had conviction about the worth of a player at the time we passed. Last time that happened was Khalil Mack. Young Clay? Yeah, I wanted him too, but as much for the wrong reasons like family legacy, than the right ones, i.e., actually knowing his worth. I did not work at player evaluations back in 2009.

@hoorta said:

I never could figure out bringing Grigson here in the first place- IIRC, he was terrible in Indy...

Yes, he was a bad GM, but as in the case of all traditional GMs he once distinguished himself as a talent evaluator. A story not entirely different than Dorsey...

@boo-fagley said:

Gruden and his super bowl ring wanted Wolfe too and youre bitching.

So what that Wolfe did not get the Packers GM job.

First... Gruden? Are you fuc-king kidding me? Gruden? lmao... Give me a minute.... .... .... OK...

Bitching? Hardly. Skeptical? You bet and for pretty good reason. I was sold Ray Farmer. His KC contributions were somehow "divined" and he became the hope around here. And I bought into his soul-crushing prospects... fool me once.

Maybe landing a Packers' "also-ran" is a coup, but what specifically in Wolf's job performance can you point to that says it is?

@hoorta said:

I never could figure out bringing Grigson here in the first place- IIRC, he was terrible in Indy...   

What you no likee?  We'll see how this turns out, but I have more confidence the way  this Front office is shaping up than having a Harvard Bean Counter and a guy who thought giving us a first round pick for bust Richardson was a good idea running the draft. 

See Logic4Squares post.

@westside-steve said:

Berry can fetch coffee and De podesta can fetch peanuts and Cracker Jack.

WSS

Exactly, french roast, sumatra, or kona? John, Elliot- salted or unsalted?   Types of Peanuts. Although peanuts come in many varieties, there are four basic market types: Runner, Virginia, Spanish and Valencia. Each of the peanut types is distinctive in size, flavor, and nutritional composition.

@boo-fagley said:

This time its going to be different.

Even Ghoolie will be on board. Dorsey aint a coffee fetcher for Haslam. I hope that he takes Josh Allen, but he was involved in building the Packers back to prominence. Keeping Depo is actually a good idea because Dorsey spent money like a drunken sailor in a whore house when he had control of the check book in KC.

You do realize how full of contradictions that is, right? Dorsey, Allen and Depot with Ghoolie on board? Hue stays but Dorsey is no longer a coffee fetcher? Is Ghoolie aware that you are deviating from the true course of rectitude?

@boo-fagley said:

The Packers are a storied and model franchise that other teams can only dream to be.

The Browns now have 3 personnel guys from the Packers. The Browns are going to blow up this draft.

They've been blowing up the draft for years. They just need to not blow it period.

@wargograw said:

Haha ok.

Even that elicited a laugh from me. I didn’t like Sashi and definitely wanted him gone. However, Jimmy burns through coaches and GMs so a 4 year deal won’t stop him.

@hoorta said:

FIFY. there's no way he should have both Hueless and Dorsey reporting directly to him. Every other organization I'm aware of has the HC reporting to the GM. 

Yeah, that makes no sense. He's the owner, not a manager who keeps control of everyone. Plus it creates conflicts. Hue most likely got a part on firing Sashi as he had Haslam's ear.

@the-gipper said:

But....their main problem has been hiring the wrong people....and then possibly meddling somewhat in their business.   Here, we hope he has hired the right guy/guys....and will leave well enough alone.  Though....keeping Hue on is evidence that we have not reached that point yet. 

I think that they keep Hue because you can't expect anything after a 0-16, and if he pulls, let's say 6 wins, he keeps the job. If he doesn't, Dorsey brings a guy of his desire as a coach and doesn't lose credit for the 2018 season. Kind of a win-win situation, where the only ones who can lose... Are the fans?

@gumby73 said:

Parade? Changing of the guards in Berea 

Add Alonzo Highsmith with Berry as splitting VP of Player Personal position.Ryan Grigson is out. 3 of Dorsey's scouts added. this office is moving to FA & draft mode..Go Browns!!

I never could figure out bringing Grigson here in the first place- IIRC, he was terrible in Indy...   

@wargograw said:

Haha ok.

What you no likee?  We'll see how this turns out, but I have more confidence the way  this Front office is shaping up than having a Harvard Bean Counter and a guy who thought giving us a first round pick for bust Richardson was a good idea running the draft. 

@darren15 said:

We just need a head coach now

Haha ok.

@gumby73 said:

https://www.brownszone.com/2018/01/10/browns-hire-eliot-wolf-as-assistant-gm/ 

The Wolf is here to solve problems.   Good, we've got one.

  Step out of the dark and into the light 

      Add Alonzo Highsmith with Berry as splitting VP of Player Personal position.Ryan Grigson is out. 3 of Dorsey's scouts added. this office is moving to FA & draft mode..Go Browns!!

@hoorta said:

does this mean Grigson is out with the hiring of Wolfe?

yup