@hoorta said:

& your post count is 40,000+, you calling Tour a slacker?  

Didn't call him a slacker.  Something totally different...but definitely not that.

@the-gipper said:

Your post count is 22,374.

& your post count is 40,000+, you calling Tour a slacker?  

@the-gipper said:

Elvis trumps Bowie.....go for the QB at #4. 

Elvis isn’t fit to hold Bowie’s jock.

@dutch-oven said:

Remember the Colts safety Bob Sanders, from Iowa?

Absolutely... pretty much the poster child for "writing checks the body couldn't cash."

@tour2ma said:

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Remember the Colts safety Bob Sanders, from Iowa?

Helluva player, smallish guy who threw his body around, missed a ton of games.

@tour2ma said:

lol... now you remember one of my guys...

Kurt is their #9 QB with a Round 4/5 cusp parojection and ranked as the 165th player overall... right where a good, darkhorse should be. He'll rise, as all my darkhorses do, and likely sneak into Round 3.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=129869&draftyear=2018&genpos=QB

LOL, those who already have hitched their wagon to a specific player need to realize I haven't done that yet. (Almost all options are on my table- short of) Cousins- too short a window and too expensive, Allen- too damn inaccurate, and Lamar Jackson- RG IV.

@hoorta said:

No major issues- I like these block ratings- surprisingly, your guy Benkert is nowhere to be seen.... 

lol... now you remember one of my guys...

Kurt is their #9 QB with a Round 4/5 cusp parojection and ranked as the 165th player overall... right where a good, darkhorse should be. He'll rise, as all my darkhorses do, and likely sneak into Round 3.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=129869&draftyear=2018&genpos=QB

@tour2ma said:

Well time flies... their top 750 is out... http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/top750.php?draftyear=2018&sortby=rateall&order=ASC

DSRank	Name	College	Proj	Hgt	Wgt	40	20	10	Bench	Vert Jump	Broad Jump	Shuttle	3Cone
1	Darnold, *Sam	QB, Southern California	1	6-3	220	4.74
2	Barkley, *Saquon	RB, Penn State	1	5-11	230	4.49
3	Rosen, *Josh	QB, UCLA	1	6-3	218	4.97
4	Fitzpatrick, *Minkah	CB, Alabama	1	6-0	201	4.52
5	Chubb, Bradley	DE, North Carolina State	1	6-3	275	4.84
6	James, *Derwin	SS, Florida State	1	6-2	211	4.52
7	Payne, *DaRon	DT, Alabama	1	6-2	308	5.38
8	Nelson, *Quenton	OG, Notre Dame	1	6-4	330	5.23
9	Allen, *Josh	QB, Wyoming	1	6-4	240	4.76
10	Ward, *Denzel	CB, Ohio State	1	5-10	191	4.37

No major issues- I like these block ratings- surprisingly, your guy Benkert is nowhere to be seen....  

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/valuechart.php?draftyear=2018

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/valuechart2.php?draftyear=2018

@tour2ma said:

Where have I done that?

Your post count is 22,374.

@tour2ma said:

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Really good kid, too. He was at TAMU when my daughter was... I met him a couple times.

He was raised in Rockport and his family had a Vietnamese restaurant almost on the bay call "Who Dat". It had a lot of his stuff from A&M and Dallas displayed there. Nice family. They went back and got me some of their nouc mam (fish sauce) off the family table when I said I had served as an advisor in Phan Thiet - nouc mam capital of Vietnam. None of the watered down stuff set out so Americans could tolerate it. The really pungent smelly stuff I had come to love on everything.

I still wonder if their business was ruined by the hurricane this summer.

@the-gipper said:

 How many more times are you going to contradict yourself just for the personal pleasure of disagreeing with me?  

Where have I done that?

@logicisforsquares said:

Dat Nguyen is a name I had not heard in a long time. It is a shame that injuries took a toll on him.

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Really good kid, too. He was at TAMU when my daughter was... I met him a couple times.

@wargograw said:

Yeah these Bama and LSU guys never seem to be quite as good as their billing.

Sarcasm?

@tour2ma said:

So now instead of one of two, it's one of three... or four... or six...

Not what I said.

And there is the fallacy at the heart of your argument. Best PLAYER is just as much a matter of perception as best QB. And it's not your only fallacy...

Add that perception of college performance is the wrong criteria. It's projection of performance to the next level.

Add that "grading" is imprecise. It's why FOs group players of similar grades on their boards.

 How many more times are you going to contradict yourself just for the personal pleasure of disagreeing with me?  

@tour2ma said:

... DraftScout doesn't merge underclassmen until the declaration deadline passes (I think the date is 01-15-18 this year)...

Well time flies... their top 750 is out... http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/top750.php?draftyear=2018&sortby=rateall&order=ASC

DSRank	Name	College	Proj	Hgt	Wgt	40	20	10	Bench	Vert Jump	Broad Jump	Shuttle	3Cone
1	Darnold, *Sam	QB, Southern California	1	6-3	220	4.74
2	Barkley, *Saquon	RB, Penn State	1	5-11	230	4.49
3	Rosen, *Josh	QB, UCLA	1	6-3	218	4.97
4	Fitzpatrick, *Minkah	CB, Alabama	1	6-0	201	4.52
5	Chubb, Bradley	DE, North Carolina State	1	6-3	275	4.84
6	James, *Derwin	SS, Florida State	1	6-2	211	4.52
7	Payne, *DaRon	DT, Alabama	1	6-2	308	5.38
8	Nelson, *Quenton	OG, Notre Dame	1	6-4	330	5.23
9	Allen, *Josh	QB, Wyoming	1	6-4	240	4.76
10	Ward, *Denzel	CB, Ohio State	1	5-10	191	4.37

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

It is. I believe they take a consensus from their writers and assign a grading scale. At least, they used to.

Sounds more like NFL.com's process.

Historically CBS has been "powered by DraftScout.com". But since DraftScout doesn't merge underclassmen until the declaration deadline passes (I think the date is 01-15-18 this year), CBS does something else until then to generate clicks.

@crstphr2 said:

You draft a QB.  Why?  Because how many points did Garrett score this year?

Six... but they were called back due to an offsides.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

In that same vein, Derwin is a (more) versatile player who followed a career path like that of Peppers - linebacker, safety, corner, $lb. Except he’s on a Sean Taylor level of athleticism, something Peppers is not.

That's the key with Derwin... he's not just a SS candidate, he has FS potential. Taylor is one comp I hear; Ed Reed is the other.

@syd said:

guess we have a long time to talk about it

Yes, we do... and as that time passes a consensus the top one (or two) QB prospect(s) will emerge.

@syd said:

thing is times have changed since then so many sports channels national sports radio (cough cough) the internet a lot of info out there some true some not but it usually gets figured out on message boards like these

And not just for rumors...

Go back to '83 and the average fan had no access to information, game tape, etc. to assess draft prospect for themselves. Pretty much the same in '93... better in '03... plenty by '13.

In the absence of the ability to self-assess fans could reference "expert" rankings, but what were few in '83 are now plentiful.

@the-gipper said:

You got a mixed bag of QBs available in this draft....and the third one taken is likely no better than the first one.  Does it matter really if you miss on both Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder?

So now instead of one of two, it's one of three... or four... or six...

@the-gipper said:

My point is yea? So?Darnold and Rosen may not be anywhere as good at playing their position as Minkah is at his.   Some don't even have Darnold and Rosen or either as being in the top 2 at their positions. 

As Tour said....if you have an absolutely No Brainer at QB...you go for the QB......but neither of those guys are considered a no brainer by any means.

Not what I said.

@the-gipper said:

It may come down to: do we take the best PLAYER in this draft....or do we take who is the best perceived QB in the draft.

And there is the fallacy at the heart of your argument. Best PLAYER is just as much a matter of perception as best QB. And it's not your only fallacy...

Add that perception of college performance is the wrong criteria. It's projection of performance to the next level.

Add that "grading" is imprecise. It's why FOs group players of similar grades on their boards.

@wargograw said:

Yeah these Bama and LSU guys never seem to be quite as good as their billing.

Not when it comes to the Browns anyway:   a #3 overall on Bama's Trent Richardson.  A #6 overall on Louisiana State's   B. Mingo.  Yes...the Browns have gotten the shite end of the stick from those two schools in recent years.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Who would I prefer? Derwin, for a few reasons. 

Another person said this and I happen to agree - Minkah isn’t a better true FS prospect than Hooker and he’s not a better true CB prospect than Lattimore. He’s a smart, athletic defender who can do both and do them fairly well, but he’s not a lock at either. His versatility is part of what drives him up the board.

In that same vein, Derwin is a (more) versatile player who followed a career path like that of Peppers - linebacker, safety, corner, $lb. Except he’s on a Sean Taylor level of athleticism, something Peppers is not.

Minkah benefitted from being on probably the most talented and disciplined defensive squad in CFB. Derwin did not. Sure, that makes the transition to the NFL easier...but it doesn’t make him the better player. 

Minkah is the obvious safer choice. But I still believe Derwin is the better player. Maybe not next season, or even the one after,  but I think Derwin will end up having the better career when all is said and done.

And he’ll be available later than Minkah, which means we could still conceivably get someone at #1, someone else at #4, and then package two picks to move up to #15 and get him...and then still have a few picks left over.

Fair enough.   I just know that we need help in the Defensive Backfield.   I would want whichever one turned out to be the best.  And like I said: hell...we could use them both really...if we wanted to stack the deck in one unit.

a slight edge goes to James for leadership- just a guess.

Marcus Allen is terrific - but he isn't in the same class as James and Minkah.

Having said that, most mocks have James going later. Beats me. James goes #14 here...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2018-nfl-mock-draft-five-qbs-go-in-first-round-but-a-trade-makes-sense-at-the-top/

@texasag1969 said:

You make a good case Tim. As I said I'd take whichever one is still there @4 if we go QB #1. I just prefer the defensive "brain" out there for a Browns team that looks lost from time to time on defense. Never underestimate the value of instant play diagnosis by a skilled defensive wrecker. If James is as good at that as Fitz I would not complain. Dat Nguyen was famous for that ability. Go directly to the 2:42 mark.

Dat Nguyen is a name I had not heard in a long time. It is a shame that injuries took a toll on him.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Minkah can’t play both at the same time, and he’s not necessarily elite at either of them.

Derwin is listed as a strong safety, but he’s not really. He’s listed as a strong safety because FSU played him basically like you’d play an X-Factor. Need a sack? Derwin on a blitz. 2 TE set? Derwin at LB. 3rd and 3? Put Derwin in the box. 2nd and 1, throw Derwin at FS.

In the NFL, he could project as a strong safety...but he plays FS just about as well as Minkah IMO  (I believe he had one of the lowest catch rates of all CFB FS, IIRC.)

He’s as rangy as, if not rangier than, Minkah and he’s probably the best true athlete in this class when all is said and done. 

People are iffy on the idea of a “weapon” because of the Peppers project, but Derwin is light years ahead of Peppers.

I’m not saying Minkah is bad, because he’s not. Nor am I saying he’ll have a bad career, because he won’t. But Derwin has Sean Taylor potential and will likely be available at 15.

You make a strong argument for James.

If he's able to be a very good FS, then I would definitely consider him. Everything I had seen on him seemed to point to him playing SS at the NFL level, which the Browns do not (allegedly) need.