Mike

@flugel said:

IMO, you always do a nice job of backing your points in here to the extent I respect where you are coming from.  Good point about the Tyrod Taylor example someone had.

All that said, my pov on Cousins is in relation to the length of commitment and the amount of salary he will demand here.  I COMPLETELY disagree he is a top 10 QB like those that only count passing stats do.  Again, if the team that drafted him saw this type of QB - he would have been secured long term.  Washington saw him every game and every practice - while our fans did not.  The friction began when his AGENT saw a top 10 QB while his team did not.  The getting cornered into tagging him 2 years in a row you spoke of was more of a reflection of a disappointing supply of veteran QBs available for the kind/length of contract they wanted to commit to so they exercised patience instead of caving in long term.  The very first time Washington saw their version of veteran upgrade, they gave Alex Smith a 94 million $ contract (guaranteeing 71 million $ of that). 

For those that fall in love with stats, there was a season Nick Foles threw 27 TD passes to only 2 INTs with a 64 comp % and 119.2 passer rating in 2013 - did that get him the kind of contract Cousins and his agent are seeking?  Did it make anyone see him as a long term top 10 QB?   With the same Washington team in 2014, Colt McCoy completed 71% of his dink and don'ts with a passer rating of 96.4; and the 1 time he appeared in 2015 he went 7 of 11 for 128 yds at 9.1 yards per completion with 1 TD:0 INTs and a passer rating of 133.9.  Stats don't always tell the whole story....  Isn't it possible the team that has seen every practice and every game doesn't see the same wonderful leadership intangibles that fans who only occasionally watch the Redskins see?  If one listens to KC Chiefs teammates about Alex Smith such as Kareem Hunt or Travis Kelce - the first thing they applaud after another playoff season is his leadership. 

Let me clarify something you changed. I NEVER asked has Cousins seen our WR Corps - I asked have Cousins' fans seen our WR Corps (especially if they're making excuses about who he had to throw to).  If we also factor in TEs, he's had experienced targets like Pierre Garcon, DeSean Jackson, Jordan Reed, Terrelle Pryor, Vernon Davis and others.   Just 2 years removed from a talent pool with a 10-6 record - Cousins started off 9-7 then went 8-7-1 and then went 7-9.  I don't see the type of progress I'd see if the guy was a legit top 10 QB. I see a QB Jeff Fishering 8-8 football.  The great ones get better and frequent playoffs.   Some QBs make a difference between winning and losing while some cannot.  If they cannot, I don't want us giving that type of QB the same/better contract than Alex Smith just got when we're trying to overhaul the talent pool of 1-31 football.  We have our pick of the litter at QB in the draft so I'll take my chances with another veteran FA QB that won't demand anything close to Cousins.  The last time I saw AJ McCarron play - it was a playoff game with his team in the lead late in the 4th quarter driving for game clinching points when Jeremy Hill fumbled the ball near the 15 yard line of Pittsburgh.  Are we sure McCarron can't be the right guy for our situation?  He did pretty good when he got a chance to play kind of like Case Keenum did in St Louis before he got another chance to play in Minnesota.  As they say, timing is everything. I think there's a right guy at the right time out there for us.  Minnesota got one last year even if by accident.   How many saw that coming?

Good post. We disagree on some points for sure but appreciate your detail. One thing we may agree on, if you makes me choose between the rest of the FA out there I would take AJ for his upside vs the pool of proven mediocres. 

@tour2ma said:

In part, h... but I also get tired of having to carry both sides of the conversation with a guy who is more interested in hurriedly responding to every post in a Forum as if it existed in a vacuum than actually thinking about a post in context.

Not my first Gipcation... won't be my last.

And I am tired of carrying on a conversation with a woman on her period.  You expect us to read your mind.  You have a hissy fit if someone disagrees with your opinion.....and you actually do quite the opposite of what you claim.....It it the rest of us that have to carry you when it comes to a conversation. Because we have to do all the thinking and research for you.  And we have to try to interpret what you mean...because, as I said...you expect us to try to read your mind. 

  So, please, for God's sake, change your tampax.  

@tour2ma said:

Correct... that was just Gip... being lazy. My comment was that judging QBs based on their W/L records was lazy.

And Kurt has posted good numbers... especially between the 20s. In the redzone? Not so much...

What the Shmuck are you talking about Lolita?

You obviously fully disappoint Hoorta...based on his comments that you do not get into arguments over minor petty points.  My experience with you is that that is just about ALL you do on here.  

Like this.    Someone asked about why some teams/people were not high on  Kirk Cousins.  I...and others have said:  it is because despite all of his statistical credentials...he has a losing record as a starting QB. 

Maybe it is simplistic...maybe it is lazy....but it is also COMPLETELY accurate.  As....let's face it....if I am being lazy and simplistic.....then so are the Washington Redskins. 

I....me,myself and I am the one that looked up and posted Cousins statistical rankings the last 3 years.  Why did I do it?  Because everyone else here...you included were too lazy to look up an comment on those stats.   Who looked up his record as the starting QB? I did....because you and everyone else was too lazy to do so. 

And it is still also a fact:  The Washington Redskins do NOT see him as a winner.   I suspect that a number of other teams have limited interest because they do not see him as a winner. Sorry that you were too lazy to research, read, and understand those facts.

@hoorta said:

 there's no evidence Cousins is "lazy" unless you have some. Or Tour in regards to someone else. If I didn't moderate- I'd have around 6 guys I'd put on ignore too. 

I think I know Tour well enough to say- he's got better things to do with his time instead of arguing with you just to prove a minor point. 

Then who was he calling lazy?

@hoorta said:

I think I know Tour well enough to say- he's got better things to do with his time instead of arguing with you just to prove a minor point. 

In part, h... but I also get tired of having to carry both sides of the conversation with a guy who is more interested in hurriedly responding to every post in a Forum as if it existed in a vacuum than actually thinking about a post in context.

Not my first Gipcation... won't be my last.

@jcam222 said:

I surely have to think you aren't saying Cousins is lazy?

Correct... that was just Gip... being lazy. My comment was that judging QBs based on their W/L records was lazy.

And Kurt has posted good numbers... especially between the 20s. In the redzone? Not so much...

@jcam222 said:

We are obviously polar opposites on this topic. For me I am absolutely baffled by the lack of love for Cousins among Browns fans. This is a sentiment shared by a couple of the Sirius NFL radio hosts as well. They were shocked by some of the callers lack of desire to get Cousins. Hell I saw someone on this board compare him to Tyrod Taylor!! Seriously LOL Tyrod friggin Taylor!!!!

1) Washington signed Smith because they had both destroyed their relationship with Cousins AND Smith was a cheaper option for their cap

2) His team record is exactly that a TEAM record. He is and will continue to be a top 10 QB and with weapons likely top 5

3) Relative to "has he seen our WR corps". What matters isn't our corps last year but rather what we can give him this season. It is well within the realm of feasibility we could give him Gordon , Jarvis Landry , Coleman and a draft pick. Not to mention Duke and drafting Barkley

If Cousins was a mediocre as some of you think Washington would have never tagged him 2 years in a row. They painted themselves into a corner in which they could no longer afford him and they ruined their relationship with him. 

IMO, you always do a nice job of backing your points in here to the extent I respect where you are coming from.  Good point about the Tyrod Taylor example someone had.

All that said, my pov on Cousins is in relation to the length of commitment and the amount of salary he will demand here.  I COMPLETELY disagree he is a top 10 QB like those that only count passing stats do.  Again, if the team that drafted him saw this type of QB - he would have been secured long term.  Washington saw him every game and every practice - while our fans did not.  The friction began when his AGENT saw a top 10 QB while his team did not.  The getting cornered into tagging him 2 years in a row you spoke of was more of a reflection of a disappointing supply of veteran QBs available for the kind/length of contract they wanted to commit to so they exercised patience instead of caving in long term.  The very first time Washington saw their version of veteran upgrade, they gave Alex Smith a 94 million $ contract (guaranteeing 71 million $ of that). 

For those that fall in love with stats, there was a season Nick Foles threw 27 TD passes to only 2 INTs with a 64 comp % and 119.2 passer rating in 2013 - did that get him the kind of contract Cousins and his agent are seeking?  Did it make anyone see him as a long term top 10 QB?   With the same Washington team in 2014, Colt McCoy completed 71% of his dink and don'ts with a passer rating of 96.4; and the 1 time he appeared in 2015 he went 7 of 11 for 128 yds at 9.1 yards per completion with 1 TD:0 INTs and a passer rating of 133.9.  Stats don't always tell the whole story....  Isn't it possible the team that has seen every practice and every game doesn't see the same wonderful leadership intangibles that fans who only occasionally watch the Redskins see?  If one listens to KC Chiefs teammates about Alex Smith such as Kareem Hunt or Travis Kelce - the first thing they applaud after another playoff season is his leadership. 

Let me clarify something you changed. I NEVER asked has Cousins seen our WR Corps - I asked have Cousins' fans seen our WR Corps (especially if they're making excuses about who he had to throw to).  If we also factor in TEs, he's had experienced targets like Pierre Garcon, DeSean Jackson, Jordan Reed, Terrelle Pryor, Vernon Davis and others.   Just 2 years removed from a talent pool with a 10-6 record - Cousins started off 9-7 then went 8-7-1 and then went 7-9.  I don't see the type of progress I'd see if the guy was a legit top 10 QB. I see a QB Jeff Fishering 8-8 football.  The great ones get better and frequent playoffs.   Some QBs make a difference between winning and losing while some cannot.  If they cannot, I don't want us giving that type of QB the same/better contract than Alex Smith just got when we're trying to overhaul the talent pool of 1-31 football.  We have our pick of the litter at QB in the draft so I'll take my chances with another veteran FA QB that won't demand anything close to Cousins.  The last time I saw AJ McCarron play - it was a playoff game with his team in the lead late in the 4th quarter driving for game clinching points when Jeremy Hill fumbled the ball near the 15 yard line of Pittsburgh.  Are we sure McCarron can't be the right guy for our situation?  He did pretty good when he got a chance to play kind of like Case Keenum did in St Louis before he got another chance to play in Minnesota.  As they say, timing is everything. I think there's a right guy at the right time out there for us.  Minnesota got one last year even if by accident.   How many saw that coming?

@hoorta said:

  I think I know Tour well enough to say- he's got better things to do with his time instead of arguing with you just to prove a minor point. 

Libelous Heresy!

@hoorta said:

 there's no evidence Cousins is "lazy" unless you have some. Or Tour in regards to someone else. If I didn't moderate- I'd have around 6 guys I'd put on ignore too. 

I think I know Tour well enough to say- he's got better things to do with his time instead of arguing with you just to prove a minor point. 

@the-gipper said:

I asked him if he thought that cousins was lazy because he said somebody was lazy I assumed he was talking about cousin and then he goes and talks about putting me on ignore like he's some Shmucking teenage ? Chick

 there's no evidence Cousins is "lazy" unless you have some. Or Tour in regards to someone else. If I didn't moderate- I'd have around 6 guys I'd put on ignore too. 

I think I know Tour well enough to say- he's got better things to do with his time instead of arguing with you just to prove a minor point. 

@hoorta said:

I have no schmuck about estrogen. Tour thinks you're being unnecessarily argumentative. If you want a comment from the peanut gallery... 

I asked him if he thought that cousins was lazy because he said somebody was lazy I assumed he was talking about cousin and then he goes and talks about putting me on ignore like he's some Shmucking teenage ? Chick

@gumby73 said:

Counting Kizer...#27 ..good news, I was born on the 28th   

So was I naturally hence mjp 28   But the BROWNS QB revolving door policy coupled with their lousy playoff record (0-1 as a wild card since 1999?) plus lack of coaching stability and other factors are poison for attracting FAs especially at quarterback. 

@the-gipper said:

I see you are a taking your estrogen pills. Because I have no Shmucking clue what the Shmuck you're talking aboutI see you are a taking your estrogen pills. Because I have no Shmucking clue what the Shmuck you're talking about

I have no schmuck about estrogen. Tour thinks you're being unnecessarily argumentative. If you want a comment from the peanut gallery... 

@tour2ma said:

Time to put you on ignore again...

I see you are a taking your estrogen pills. Because I have no Shmucking clue what the Shmuck you're talking aboutI see you are a taking your estrogen pills. Because I have no Shmucking clue what the Shmuck you're talking about

@jcam222 said:

We agree to disagree. All in all I am prepared to be disappointed on the  Cousins front. I am just standing by my contention that its a huge risk and likely mistake to not go balls to the wall to land him. 

Fair enough. You have your opinion, I have mine. If this was a poker game, looks like you're willing to push all your chips in, think I'll wait. If we get Cousins, your plan makes sense. If not, we didn't "Suck for Sam" needlessly. 

@hoorta said:

Then. I'll just say IMHO you're dead wrong, on both counts. That Browns survival doesn't depend on "win now at all costs". And it doesn't depend on landing Cousins either. If that's the direction the Browns decide to go, I'll support it. Just be prepared to be disappointed when Kirk decides the Bills, Broncos, or Cardinals are greener pastures. 

We agree to disagree. All in all I am prepared to be disappointed on the  Cousins front. I am just standing by my contention that its a huge risk and likely mistake to not go balls to the wall to land him. 

@jcam222 said:

I don't just WANT to take bird in hand, this is a team and fan base thats survival is  absolutely is dependent on winning now ala QB bird in hand. I'd have been fine with Smith for this as well but without him its Cousins all the way. Also cheaper is a word that should be completely banned from all discussions within the FO and our board lol I am F'ing tired of cheap

Then. I'll just say IMHO you're dead wrong, on both counts. That Browns survival doesn't depend on "win now at all costs". And it doesn't depend on landing Cousins either. If that's the direction the Browns decide to go, I'll support it. Just be prepared to be disappointed when Kirk decides the Bills, Broncos, or Cardinals are greener pastures. 

@hoorta said:

Sure there's a general lack of interest in Cousins by Browns fans for about $150 million reasons.  The Patriots don't win Super Bowls by overpaying for talent. And Cousins is is going to get grossly overpaid- you might not care, but at this point in the Browns team building I'll bet they do. If we could sign Kirk for the $91 million, $70 million guaranteed that Smith got, sign me up.  $150 million $90 million guaranteed? Forget it. A couple extra wins in 2018 with Cousins doesn't do it for me- at the expense of taking the long view. This isn't like the Broncos who needed the final piece (Manning) in a QB, we're still miles away from competing. 

So right off the bat lets just answer the Patriots thing, TOM BRADY and that is that  

IMO he wont be getting grossly overpaid, he will be getting paid like a talent of his level at QB

1) True, Redskins FO blew it, I don't think Cousins was without blame- it takes two to start a fight. 

2) So you just want the bird in the hand, and have zero confidence Dorsey can't draft some one better- maybe a lot better- than Cousins (Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield) who are not only 9 years younger, but also a damnsite cheaper for at least the next three years. 

I don't just WANT to take bird in hand, this is a team and fan base thats survival is  absolutely is dependent on winning now ala QB bird in hand. I'd have been fine with Smith for this as well but without him its Cousins all the way. Also cheaper is a word that should be completely banned from all discussions within the FO and our board lol I am F'ing tired of cheap

3) You familiar with the computer term "vaporware"?  Cousins will probably be the first FA off the market- and you're going to try selling him on a roster that largely doesn't exist yet. 

I am a professional seller so accustomed to selling value that is somewhat murky in the beginning. If we do not have someone in our FO that can convince Cousins our $118M in cap and historic level number of high draft picks can arm him with a superior WR corp and running backs then we better hurry up and hire that missing piece in the FO. That should be as easy as selling a $20 spot for a dollar. 

Mediocre, no. Not worth the asking price, yes.  Question- would you have been screaming not worth it if we had offered KC ( a deal they certainly would have taken) the #33 this year and another second round pick in 2019? 

Honestly if we could have gotten Smith for the #33 AND he would have signed a cap friendly 4 years I would have been very happy. Perhaps again I am in the minority. 

And in regard to tagging and trading, that IIRC will take the Browns out of the picture. Franchise tag involves first round picks.  Not sure if you can tag a guy, work out a contract, take the tag off, and then trade him. Also the cap implications would be real fuzzy. Or are you so in love with Cousins the #1 overall and a first next year is worth it? That only works for a team like the Bills who have two low first round picks, and were actually a playoff team- remember Kirk saying he wants to play for a winner? 

They cannot tag Cousins with the non exclusive tag which is the only tag that requires the two #1 picks. per the CBA you cannot use the non exclusive for a 3rd consecutive tagging. They can only either tag him with the exclusive tag or the transition tag. Neither would give them anything in regards to draft picks. 

Not a fan of Mary Kay but this is it in a nutshell from the article...  http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/01/kirk_cousins_and_the_browns_wh.html#incart_big-photo

"To me, the only real connection between Cousins and the Browns is money and the fact that Cousins' first career start came against Cleveland back in 2012. Cousins is a quick fix, but is he a longterm solution? That's the question John Dorsey and Co. will have to answer between now and March."

@jcam222 said:

We are obviously polar opposites on this topic. For me I am absolutely baffled by the lack of love for Cousins among Browns fans. This is a sentiment shared by a couple of the Sirius NFL radio hosts as well. They were shocked by some of the callers lack of desire to get Cousins. Hell I saw someone on this board compare him to Tyrod Taylor!! Seriously LOL Tyrod friggin Taylor!!!!

1) Washington signed Smith because they had both destroyed their relationship with Cousins AND Smith was a cheaper option for their cap

2) His team record is exactly that a TEAM record. He is and will continue to be a top 10 QB and with weapons likely top 5

3) Relative to "has he seen our WR corps". What matters isn't our corps last year but rather what we can give him this season. It is well within the realm of feasibility we could give him Gordon , Jarvis Landry , Coleman and a draft pick. Not to mention Duke and drafting Barkley

If Cousins was a mediocre as some of you think Washington would have never tagged him 2 years in a row. They painted themselves into a corner in which they could no longer afford him and they ruined their relationship with him. 

Sure there's a general lack of interest in Cousins by Browns fans for about $150 million reasons.  The Patriots don't win Super Bowls by overpaying for talent. And Cousins is is going to get grossly overpaid- you might not care, but at this point in the Browns team building I'll bet they do. If we could sign Kirk for the $91 million, $70 million guaranteed that Smith got, sign me up.  $150 million $90 million guaranteed? Forget it. A couple extra wins in 2018 with Cousins doesn't do it for me- at the expense of taking the long view. This isn't like the Broncos who needed the final piece (Manning) in a QB, we're still miles away from competing. 

1) True, Redskins FO blew it, I don't think Cousins was without blame- it takes two to start a fight. 

2) So you just want the bird in the hand, and have zero confidence Dorsey can't draft some one better- maybe a lot better- than Cousins (Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield) who are not only 9 years younger, but also a damnsite cheaper for at least the next three years. 

3) You familiar with the computer term "vaporware"?  Cousins will probably be the first FA off the market- and you're going to try selling him on a roster that largely doesn't exist yet. 

Mediocre, no. Not worth the asking price, yes.  Question- would you have been screaming not worth it if we had offered KC ( a deal they certainly would have taken) the #33 this year and another second round pick in 2019? 

And in regard to tagging and trading, that IIRC will take the Browns out of the picture. Franchise tag involves first round picks.  Not sure if you can tag a guy, work out a contract, take the tag off, and then trade him. Also the cap implications would be real fuzzy. Or are you so in love with Cousins the #1 overall and a first next year is worth it? That only works for a team like the Bills who have two low first round picks, and were actually a playoff team- remember Kirk saying he wants to play for a winner?  

Not a fan of Mary Kay but this is it in a nutshell from the article...  http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/01/kirk_cousins_and_the_browns_wh.html#incart_big-photo

"To me, the only real connection between Cousins and the Browns is money and the fact that Cousins' first career start came against Cleveland back in 2012. Cousins is a quick fix, but is he a longterm solution? That's the question John Dorsey and Co. will have to answer between now and March."

@tour2ma said:

Flaw in this is not considering the other options WSH had. One of which was tag and trade... which I believe they tried to do without success.

Still an option until March 14th I believe. I also do not believe they have tried to tag and trade although I could be wrong. I think they were trying to string him along and cheap out on a deal. They run theirselves into the corner with the 3rd year tag worth about $34M and no non exclusive tag allowed per the CBA  on the 3rd consecutive tag. 

@tour2ma said:

I have a different word for it... lazy.

I surely have to think you aren't saying Cousins is lazy? I've read he is literally OCD in his prep and conditioning. Cousins is a stud QB period. Team stats are meaningless. 

2017 I've heard said was a down year for Cousins. Here is a list of the QB's who threw more TD's last season

Here is a list of the guys who threw for more yards

@tour2ma said:

I have a different word for it... lazy.

You think Cousins is lazy?   First I have heard that said about him.

@tour2ma said:

Still doesn't make Fitz "qualified"...

Nor does it make him unqualified. 

Like I said I'm going on a felling here. So the next logical question is "based upon what?"

Are you asking me that...or yourself?  I have answered it completely. in terms of his credentials...see above.

I think we all can remember seeing McC whether he was suited up or not sitting next to whatever kid was starting for us while our D was on the field. He was also standing on the sideline and watching "the kid" when the O was on the field. He was clearly engaged. That Hue offered him the QB Coach job said he was also good.

If you are asking if I would rather have Fitzpatrick or McCown...I would say McCown.

Being married to a Texan fan I see a fair amount of them as well as the Browns. When Fitz was a Texan in the handful of games he did not start you just did not see the same sideline behavior. Maybe he has changed, but I doubt it was during his stint with NYJ... where Fitz went to start and who let Fitz go in favor of??? McC... who went there to start, but ended up trying to coach up Petty.

I think he was much younger than....and felt he was in a position to fight for long term starting status.

Supposedly backup and mentor were the roles Fitz was ready to accept in his move to TB. I haven't read anything about how that went... hopefully better than their season.

I think that is exactly what he has been doing for Winston.  Though...to be fair...your best argument against him is that Winston has regressed this year...and whatever advice/guidance Fitz has been giving him has apparently not sunk in.