@flugel said:

? I like that Titanic line.  That said, you're losing context here.  Nobody called 1 guy a weakest link, which is why you don't have a cut and paste of it. If you're aiming that at my comment of when your 1-31- we shouldn't have to get creative about what needs replacing - we can play pretend here all you want but no other secondary gave up the volume of give-me's we did.  That's a big reason why opposing passers enjoyed the highest completion percentages against Cleveland (outside of both edge rushers getting/playing injured). 

This off season hasn't been about replacing only 1 DB. We're replacing 4 different starters at the following spots: RCB, LCB, SS and FS.  In our biggest area of weakness, should we want guys that are only good enough to start for a winless team?  Or should we want guys capable of starting for a better team in spots they are best suited to play?  

We can dance around this forever but at some point we gotta get back to finding Corners like Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield to cover the Antonio Browns, AJ Greens and Steve Smiths/Michael Crabtrees in our division. If you look at last year's opener where we totally shut their running game down - Antonio Brown's 180+ yards receiving + 1 blocked punt for a TD forfeited all other efforts in a close game.  The years we had Dixon and Minnifield - it almost made us forget we didn't exactly have the best pass rush on the planet until we played Elway seemingly every time. If we could have given them a Lawrence Taylor or a Derrick Thomas type of relentless edge rush, not to be confused with the older version of Chip Banks - we would have had the 1 or 2 big plays we lost by in 2 of the AFC Championships IMO.

Is your need to defend Jamar Taylor because you still follow the home team in Arizona somewhat?  If so, let's hope you're strong enough at both corner spots that he can be the effective 3rd corner he's best suited to be.  Unfortunately, someone in Cleveland paid him way too much money to be in that role. Arizona only gave up a 6th round pick 2 years from now which seems like they're pegging him way better than we did. 

Yes I still follow the Cards as well as the Browns. I can't help it.

Yes we need cb's everywhere and on both teams. Taylor took a pay cut when he was traded.

Going back to my original point...he's not a weak link if the chain is made out of lead.

@the-gipper said:

No surprise.  IMO...he was the weak link back there.    So, from our starting DB from last year, both CBs will be gone:  Taylor/McCourty.  Peppers will move from FS to SS, and Kindred will now play backup to him there with Damarious Randall taking over the FS spot. 

Does anyone not see the new starting DB of:

Ward, Carrie, Randall and Peppers not being better?

He said it. Now where do we go from here?

@one-post said:

Awesome.

Well I guess its "lets see"?

If we keep losing its only rearranging the deck chairs on the titantic. Lets see how Taylor does in a new situation and lets see how many games we win without a "weak link".

? I like that Titanic line.  That said, you're losing context here.  Nobody called 1 guy a weakest link, which is why you don't have a cut and paste of it. If you're aiming that at my comment of when your 1-31- we shouldn't have to get creative about what needs replacing - we can play pretend here all you want but no other secondary gave up the volume of give-me's we did.  That's a big reason why opposing passers enjoyed the highest completion percentages against Cleveland (outside of both edge rushers getting/playing injured). 

This off season hasn't been about replacing only 1 DB. We're replacing 4 different starters at the following spots: RCB, LCB, SS and FS.  In our biggest area of weakness, should we want guys that are only good enough to start for a winless team?  Or should we want guys capable of starting for a better team in spots they are best suited to play?  

We can dance around this forever but at some point we gotta get back to finding Corners like Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield to cover the Antonio Browns, AJ Greens and Steve Smiths/Michael Crabtrees in our division. If you look at last year's opener where we totally shut their running game down - Antonio Brown's 180+ yards receiving + 1 blocked punt for a TD forfeited all other efforts in a close game.  The years we had Dixon and Minnifield - it almost made us forget we didn't exactly have the best pass rush on the planet until we played Elway seemingly every time. If we could have given them a Lawrence Taylor or a Derrick Thomas type of relentless edge rush, not to be confused with the older version of Chip Banks - we would have had the 1 or 2 big plays we lost by in 2 of the AFC Championships IMO.

Is your need to defend Jamar Taylor because you still follow the home team in Arizona somewhat?  If so, let's hope you're strong enough at both corner spots that he can be the effective 3rd corner he's best suited to be.  Unfortunately, someone in Cleveland paid him way too much money to be in that role. Arizona only gave up a 6th round pick 2 years from now which seems like they're pegging him way better than we did. 

@flugel said:

You're line of reasoning doesn't seem bad. That said, was he starting because the FO already overrated him into a salary increase after they rated him much higher than the team in Miami that gave up on him a few years ago?   FWIW, he wasn't the only one in our secondary that needed to be replaced, which is why all 4 positions are projected to have a new starter in 2018. 

I could very well be wrong here - but I've always seen him the way I saw Anthony Henry.  I thought Henry was an ideal 3rd corner here in Cleveland where he led the conference with 10 INTs during his rookie year of 2001 that he played in that role for us. When injuries bumped him into a starting corner for us - he wasn't winning match-ups nearly as frequently as he did as a rookie to the extent we didn't even feel compelled to extend him a new contract.  Meanwhile, the Dallas Cowboys remembered that rookie INT inventory and projected him with the ability worthy of being paid like a #1 corner.  I'm sure any media questioning the decision probably got asked why would he be expected to show improving numbers in a place like Cleveland anyway.  IMO, this is where you gotta be razor sharp at seeing WHO you are paying up against what you are getting back in return per expectation fulfilled/unfulfilled.  Just like some guys are born to be slot receivers - some guys are better wired to cover slot receivers.  I think Jamar Taylor can have a much more competitive/productive career in this particular role.  That said, if a FO is overrating him for more - they will pay him for the higher expectations. Okay, so what happens when a new regime comes in with all kinds of holes to patch? They're going to keep it real when it's time to evaluate performance for the expectation invested in. Keep in mind, opposing passers enjoyed the highest completion percentages against our secondary so he was going to hold both corners more accountable than the FO that brought both guys here. When I look at the 1 team that traded for Taylor, all they had to part with was a 6th round draft pick in 2020. There's no more Do-si-do with Dorsey's Dough. 

Awesome.

Well I guess its "lets see"?

If we keep losing its only rearranging the deck chairs on the titantic. Lets see how Taylor does in a new situation and lets see how many games we win without a "weak link".

@the-gipper said:

By that I assume you mean "least yards given up per play"?   As opposed to most?

? Sometimes you gotta remove the attorney hat in exchange for your "Dances with Woofs" or "Drinks Beer" hat to see he concluded his point with "No way he doesn't play there.." 

@one-post said:

I agree with Taylor being the odd man out right now but it seems he was good enough to start? My point...having Taylor making an exit shouldn't be entirely his fault.

You're line of reasoning doesn't seem bad. That said, was he starting because the FO already overrated him into a salary increase after they rated him much higher than the team in Miami that gave up on him a few years ago?   FWIW, he wasn't the only one in our secondary that needed to be replaced, which is why all 4 positions are projected to have a new starter in 2018. 

I could very well be wrong here - but I've always seen him the way I saw Anthony Henry.  I thought Henry was an ideal 3rd corner here in Cleveland where he led the conference with 10 INTs during his rookie year of 2001 that he played in that role for us. When injuries bumped him into a starting corner for us - he wasn't winning match-ups nearly as frequently as he did as a rookie to the extent we didn't even feel compelled to extend him a new contract.  Meanwhile, the Dallas Cowboys remembered that rookie INT inventory and projected him with the ability worthy of being paid like a #1 corner.  I'm sure any media questioning the decision probably got asked why would he be expected to show improving numbers in a place like Cleveland anyway.  IMO, this is where you gotta be razor sharp at seeing WHO you are paying up against what you are getting back in return per expectation fulfilled/unfulfilled.  Just like some guys are born to be slot receivers - some guys are better wired to cover slot receivers.  I think Jamar Taylor can have a much more competitive/productive career in this particular role.  That said, if a FO is overrating him for more - they will pay him for the higher expectations. Okay, so what happens when a new regime comes in with all kinds of holes to patch? They're going to keep it real when it's time to evaluate performance for the expectation invested in. Keep in mind, opposing passers enjoyed the highest completion percentages against our secondary so he was going to hold both corners more accountable than the FO that brought both guys here. When I look at the 1 team that traded for Taylor, all they had to part with was a 6th round draft pick in 2020. There's no more Do-si-do with Dorsey's Dough. 

@unsympathetic said:

BBC was #1 in the league last year at slot corner yards given up per play..  No way he doesn't play there..

By that I assume you mean "least yards given up per play"?   As opposed to most?

Zombo said:

Ok, well your personal analysis aside, most NFL evaluators have him rated as an average starting corner and an NFL team just traded for him and they'll plan to stick him right in the starting lineup.

We're fortunate to have been able to upgrade the position this offseason and find guys that work for our defense, glad Taylor found a spot where he'll still be contributing on Sundays.

Zombo

Fortunate to upgrade the position is almost an understatement. Our two worst position groups (DB and WR) have been upgraded tremendously, not to mention QB. Our D backfield has been absolute Sheet since Haden/Ward/Gipson and our WR...well...

Zombo said:

Ok, well your personal analysis aside, most NFL evaluators have him rated as an average starting corner and an NFL team just traded for him and they'll plan to stick him right in the starting lineup.

We're fortunate to have been able to upgrade the position this offseason and find guys that work for our defense, glad Taylor found a spot where he'll still be contributing on Sundays.

Zombo

To quote Bill Belichick  "I can only go by what I see"...and what I saw of Taylor was that he was often a crispy critter.

@the-gipper said:

Well...I disagree somewhat.  Some of the shittiest performances on this shitty team were by this particular shitty CB.  He often got burned like a pigeon landing on a live wire.  He might have been OK to keep as the 4th/5th CB on the team....but as a primary cover corner....he could barely cover.

Ok, well your personal analysis aside, most NFL evaluators have him rated as an average starting corner and an NFL team just traded for him and they'll plan to stick him right in the starting lineup.

We're fortunate to have been able to upgrade the position this offseason and find guys that work for our defense, glad Taylor found a spot where he'll still be contributing on Sundays.

Zombo

Zombo said:

Taylor was a stopgap. He had enough talent to start. We flipped 7th rounders to get him and signed him to a stopgap contract.

We got him when Sashi Brown was GM and Ray Horton was DC.

Two years later, Dorsey has been able to get the kind of corners Williams wants ... press corners.

We brought in 3 free agent corners and drafted two ... one with the #4 pick overall, so Williams has his press corners and Taylor can move to a situation that fits him better.

We're growing, we're getting better. We're building an actual "team" where the parts fit together. But Taylor wasn't a shitty CB, he's a good NFL corner who no longer fits what we are doing in Cleveland. Thank you for your service. He gave 100% two years in a row on a shitty team, I wish him well with the Cards.

Zombo

Well...I disagree somewhat.  Some of the shittiest performances on this shitty team were by this particular shitty CB.  He often got burned like a pigeon landing on a live wire.  He might have been OK to keep as the 4th/5th CB on the team....but as a primary cover corner....he could barely cover.

We got him when Sashi Brown was GM and Ray Horton was DC.

Two years later, Dorsey has been able to get the kind of corners Williams wants ... press corners.

We brought in 3 free agent corners and drafted two ... one with the #4 pick overall, so Williams has his press corners and Taylor can move to a situation that fits him better.

We're growing, we're getting better. We're building an actual "team" where the parts fit together. But Taylor wasn't a shitty CB, he's a good NFL corner who no longer fits what we are doing in Cleveland. Thank you for your service. He gave 100% two years in a row on a shitty team, I wish him well with the Cards.

Zombo

@the-gipper said:

Taylor was one of the big reasons we were one and 31 last year. And with the new talent that had been brought in, yes he was the weakest link

I agree with Taylor being the odd man out right now but it seems he was good enough to start? My point...having Taylor making an exit shouldn't be entirely his fault. Oh and btw way I really like motorboating even in the winter.

@flugel said:

Gotta agree with you Gums!  IMO Boddy-Calhoun has made the most of his opportunities here.  When he first started to get reps - I can't even tell you how many times I found myself asking in a positive way "Wow, who is this guy?"  He impressed me way more than Jamar Taylor ever did at a fraction of the cap hit you alluded to.  If Gregg Williams has been seeing the same player we have; and our FO really loves a good walk-on story - the warm fuzzies for BBC should be going viral in Berea...

When he first started getting playing time, I (not so) affectionately called him (dead) Boddy Calhoon. He was flat- out terrible, but has improved immensely with experience. 

@one-post said:

Ok how is anyone a weak link that goes 1-31 in the last 2years? Oh I see so if Taylor wasn't starting we would have been so great. Plz

Taylor was one of the big reasons we were one and 31 last year. And with the new talent that had been brought in, yes he was the weakest link

@7moses7 said:

BBC not drafted or signed as a UDFA by Dorsey so he could be the next one traded or released 

While true Moses, everybody likes a great bargain like BBC provides here. When we're coming off 1-31 football, we shouldn't have to get creative with finding/prioritizing who needs to go. 

@gumby73 said:

Anna & Lynnic's would both get fired at The home of Depo..#13 overall CB at a 156th pay rate should at least get BBC a camp look at Fort Dorsey. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-nfls-10-most-valuable-players-on-smaller-contracts  Haslam should be BBC free uber driver? (now again, am a buckeye fan. but when a Golden Gopher continued to jump off the screen,BBC got my attention.early.) 

Gotta agree with you Gums!  IMO Boddy-Calhoun has made the most of his opportunities here.  When he first started to get reps - I can't even tell you how many times I found myself asking in a positive way "Wow, who is this guy?"  He impressed me way more than Jamar Taylor ever did at a fraction of the cap hit you alluded to.  If Gregg Williams has been seeing the same player we have; and our FO really loves a good walk-on story - the warm fuzzies for BBC should be going viral in Berea...

@7moses7 said:

BBC not drafted or signed as a UDFA by Dorsey so he could be the next one traded or released 

Anna & Lynnic's would both get fired at The home of Depo..#13 overall CB at a 156th pay rate should at least get BBC a camp look at Fort Dorsey. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-nfls-10-most-valuable-players-on-smaller-contracts  Haslam should be BBC free uber driver? (now again, am a buckeye fan. but when a Golden Gopher continued to jump off the screen,BBC got my attention.early.) 

@gumby73 said:

We traded Mia.for J.Taylor..flipped a 7th #250 giving Mia.#223 QB Brandon Doughty to Mia...Heard Dorsey wanted to improve the speed of the group but Taylor ran 4.39 combine but maybe slowing. Looking more like corners with press coverage ability leans more of the truth of the matter with Williams & Dorsey..now i wonder if BBC/T.Mitchell cover slot behind EJ Gaines or maybe some  back-up FS reps? 

BBC not drafted or signed as a UDFA by Dorsey so he could be the next one traded or released 

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2017/09/01/browns-hold-first-pick-on-waiver-claims/

@gumby73 said:

Dorsey must have a long list  https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/05/18/browns-claim-marcell-frazier-off-waivers/  

...... and to think some of us were all bent out of shape when they didn't draft Chubb.