@tour2ma said:

Feels like time for a(nother) Joe "Turkey" Jones debate...

I wasn't here for this, do tell!

@jiggins7919 said:

Oh I know it was a bad call, I'm just saying Garrett could've avoided it.  I really think he could've pulled up a bit and not drill him as hard.  

No chance. If Garrett plays that way he might as well just stick to pass coverage. 

The whole pansy as s rule change is BS. NFL just having a knee jerk reaction to Aaron Rodgers getting hurt last year.

@jiggins7919 said:

Oh I know it was a bad call, I'm just saying Garrett could've avoided it.  I really think he could've pulled up a bit and not drill him as hard.  

And what happens when Ben (who is as big or bigger than most NFL linebackers) just bounces off and gets a big play?  

@the-gipper said:

Of course, if you allow that, then you would be opening it up for every penalty that is a judgment call to be scrutinized by replay:   Holding, pass interference, block in the back, etc. etc.   I guess the league would want none of that.  Not sure we should want that either.

The bad calls evened out in that game. Gordon said- and I totally agree, think even the NFL office said Haden clearly interfered with him in the end zone. Talk about a game changing no-call. Would have been Browns ball at the one.  

The NFL has been trying to speed up the game.

@mark-o said:

I guess make it the same thing.   I don't know.  I'm sure it can be worked out.

The way they will work it out is to do nothing about it.  That I am pretty sure of.

@the-gipper said:

Fair enough I guess.    What about those last two minutes, which now are all booth reviews?

I guess make it the same thing.   I don't know.  I'm sure it can be worked out.

@mark-o said:

Just give the coaches an extra challenge...and sure...can challenge any call since bascially every call is a judgement call anyways.    Penalty on a big play, like the 3rd down roughing call, throw the challenge flag and let the NFL office decide if its the right call or not.   If the whole point of having replay is to get the calls right, then why not use it to get everything right, not just the plays that are "reviewable".

Fair enough I guess.    What about those last two minutes, which now are all booth reviews?

@the-gipper said:

Of course, if you allow that, then you would be opening it up for every penalty that is a judgment call to be scrutinized by replay:   Holding, pass interference, block in the back, etc. etc.   I guess the league would want none of that.  Not sure we should want that either.

Just give the coaches an extra challenge...and sure...can challenge any call since bascially every call is a judgement call anyways.    Penalty on a big play, like the 3rd down roughing call, throw the challenge flag and let the NFL office decide if its the right call or not.   If the whole point of having replay is to get the calls right, then why not use it to get everything right, not just the plays that are "reviewable".

@mark-o said:

Which means one of the other refs needs to step in or make penalties reviewable.    There was a roughing call in the game last night that was even more laughable.    Ravens defender simply 2 hand pushed Dalton after a pass, Dalton went down...ref threw a flag for roughing the QB.   Totally ridiculous.  Let the coaches challenge those calls...let the dude in the league office who reviews plays look at it and say yes or no if it's a penalty.    Wouldn't slow the game down any at all, should take about a minute or two, then you won't have the league saying after the fact that something should or shouldn't have been a penalty.

Of course, if you allow that, then you would be opening it up for every penalty that is a judgment call to be scrutinized by replay:   Holding, pass interference, block in the back, etc. etc.   I guess the league would want none of that.  Not sure we should want that either.

@mark-o said:

Which means one of the other refs needs to step in or make penalties reviewable.    There was a roughing call in the game last night that was even more laughable.    Ravens defender simply 2 hand pushed Dalton after a pass, Dalton went down...ref threw a flag for roughing the QB.   Totally ridiculous.  Let the coaches challenge those calls...let the dude in the league office who reviews plays look at it and say yes or no if it's a penalty.    Wouldn't slow the game down any at all, should take about a minute or two, then you won't have the league saying after the fact that something should or shouldn't have been a penalty.

Saw that... IMO the DE knew full well that the ball and the push was so late, that the flag was warranted. As the "Official" serving as the rules expert (that broadcasts need a "rules expert" says something in and of itself) said... the call leaned heavily on the unnecessary part of Unnecessary Roughness.

That said then the "expert" proceeded to question about every call from then on. Some, especially the Cinci DB holding/ interference call were laughable. If Officials exercised that degree of discretion he was advocating, then the league is truly fukced.

@tour2ma said:

Wrapping up a QB and going to the ground is one of the roughing triggers.

I saw a ground-level replay yesterday from an angle behind MG... showed clearly that he did not land squarely on Ben, but only with his left side. And as said above MG extended his right arm to soften his landing. IIRC the ref that threw the flag was the ref to the left of the action. He simply had a bad angle to see the reduced impact going to the ground.

Which means one of the other refs needs to step in or make penalties reviewable.    There was a roughing call in the game last night that was even more laughable.    Ravens defender simply 2 hand pushed Dalton after a pass, Dalton went down...ref threw a flag for roughing the QB.   Totally ridiculous.  Let the coaches challenge those calls...let the dude in the league office who reviews plays look at it and say yes or no if it's a penalty.    Wouldn't slow the game down any at all, should take about a minute or two, then you won't have the league saying after the fact that something should or shouldn't have been a penalty.

I saw a ground-level replay yesterday from an angle behind MG... showed clearly that he did not land squarely on Ben, but only with his left side. And as said above MG extended his right arm to soften his landing. IIRC the ref that threw the flag was the ref to the left of the action. He simply had a bad angle to see the reduced impact going to the ground.

@jiggins7919 said:

Oh I know it was a bad call, I'm just saying Garrett could've avoided it.  I really think he could've pulled up a bit and not drill him as hard.  

However if he had tried to stop his momentum and failed, it would have been called as a late hit on the QB. You have to realize that Garrett is as fast as most NFL RBs. It takes a lot to slow down 270+ lbs going that fast.

EDIT: BTW it's not his athleticism, power or moves that surprises most opponents, it's his Mom and sister's championship track speed. Every time he puts on the jets to get someone running away from him I get surprised and I've been watching him for several years. It's also why I knew we had not seen him 100% since the ARK game his Jr year when he got that first high ankle sprain. He said after the Pitt game that this is the first time he felt he was back to that level since that injury.

@texasag1969 said:

Actually he did wrap him up and then released his R hand and arm to place it on the ground to hold off his weight from BB. It was purely a bad call. The ref was in the perfect position to see that arm and hand go out to the ground in an effort to not pile him into the ground. Even Ben understood what Garrett did.

Oh I know it was a bad call, I'm just saying Garrett could've avoided it.  I really think he could've pulled up a bit and not drill him as hard.  

@jiggins7919 said:

They somehow missed the ball bouncing off our guy's head, even with 4 replay angles.  Without that, I'd say you're right.  But they messed up on both sides, so can't blame them.  

Garrett also didn't have to crunch Ben as hard as he did.  He was running FULL SPEED right at Ben, so Garrett HAD to know Ben was either going to throw it or tuck it away and get sacked.  Either way, there's absolutely NO BENEFIT of crunching him that hard.  None.  Garrett launched himself like a missile, and while I agree, it was completely legal, everyone on earth knows the NFL is trying to protect their QB's.  Garrett could've run as fast as he was, and just wrapped him up instead.  But he didn't.  

Actually he did wrap him up and then released his R hand and arm to place it on the ground to hold off his weight from BB. It was purely a bad call. The ref was in the perfect position to see that arm and hand go out to the ground in an effort to not pile him into the ground. Even Ben understood what Garrett did. Ths was not a Suh piledriver.

Garrett also didn't have to crunch Ben as hard as he did.  He was running FULL SPEED right at Ben, so Garrett HAD to know Ben was either going to throw it or tuck it away and get sacked.  Either way, there's absolutely NO BENEFIT of crunching him that hard.  None.  Garrett launched himself like a missile, and while I agree, it was completely legal, everyone on earth knows the NFL is trying to protect their QB's.  Garrett could've run as fast as he was, and just wrapped him up instead.  But he didn't.  

“I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it. I wasn’t upset about it. I was surprised.“ - Ben Roethlisberger

. . . .  well, there you go. . . .  Even Big Dumb Ben was surprised at the penalty call.

"2"

fukking "2".....and in that time they've won superbowls but even more important, they've been relevant almost every year.

@ghoolie said:

Well, I think a lot of this reply is wishful thinking and pride of team. Ward and Zumba are not game changers week in and week out. The Steelers are still a far better team and a better franchise. The records will tell all.

And yet Cleveland has 13 championships, 

Call us when you catch up to halfway.  (yes, I said you).

@ghoolie said:

They gave away a win. It is not something that will happen often. The Steelers are a far superior team to the Browns

Bill Parcells said that you are what your record is, and you are only as good as your last game.    And they are both 0-0-1.  Right now it looks like they are a tie in terms of quality. 

Beyond that, I will say that the Squibs have a much more proven QB, and WR in BR and Brown.  And I think they have at this point a more stable OL. 

But would have to do a unit by unit, player by player comparison to tell what is really the case. 

@ghoolie said:

Well, I think a lot of this reply is wishful thinking and pride of team. Ward and Zumba are not game changers week in and week out. The Steelers are still a far better team and a better franchise. The records will tell all.

Um, I can't copy the video to here- http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000960785/article/nfl-power-rankings-week-2-aaron-rodgers-restores-packers 

but scroll down to where the Browns are at #29, and take a look at the three minute video breaking down Garrett's big plays- and try and tell with a straight face me he's not a game changer. All he has to do is stay healthy.   This was a performance against a team their fans think they're Super Bowl level talent. Garrett beat them like a drum. 

@hoorta said:

On paper, maybe & they're not far superior anymore. It's early yet. They have Ben and Brown, and a pouty Bell, if he ever decides to show up. I can posit a healthy Zumba Instructor is better than anything they have on their D-line, and Ward is looking like he's going to be better than anything they have in their secondary. Landry hasn't made the pro bowl for the last several years because he sucks. The the gap is narrowing. The tie was no accident, and has been pointed out by the talking heads, get a +5 turnover ratio, you should outright win 95% of the time. 

BTW, in the week one Power Rankings (aka Beauty Contest) none of them have the Browns as the worst team (one has them as high as #24) in the NFL anymore- that distinction belongs to the Bills. 

Well, I think a lot of this reply is wishful thinking and pride of team. Ward and Zumba are not game changers week in and week out. The Steelers are still a far better team and a better franchise. The records will tell all.

@ghoolie said:

They gave away a win. It is not something that will happen often. The Steelers are a far superior team to the Browns

On paper, maybe & they're not far superior anymore. It's early yet. They have Ben and Brown, and a pouty Bell, if he ever decides to show up. I can posit a healthy Zumba Instructor is better than anything they have on their D-line, and Ward is looking like he's going to be better than anything they have in their secondary. Landry hasn't made the pro bowl for the last several years because he sucks. The the gap is narrowing. The tie was no accident, and has been pointed out by the talking heads, get a +5 turnover ratio, you should outright win 95% of the time. 

BTW, in the week one Power Rankings (aka Beauty Contest) none of them have the Browns as the worst team (one has them as high as #24) in the NFL anymore- that distinction belongs to the Bills.