@the-cysko-kid said:

I'm tired of hearing about how hard teachers jobs are. Today was the second day this week my kids school was delayed and now it was actually cancelled. 

If you're in Northeast Ohio look out your damn window right now and tell me why school had to be cancelled.

Two unrelated issues. Teachers doing hard work have zero input into weather days. Totally an administrative decision. No one ever asked my wife her opinion nor my son now whether school should be in or not. Two weeks ago Killeen shut down for ice, but where he works north of there did not. So he drove by on his way to work.

@cccjwh said:

How about you find some evidence to back up your assertions instead of telling me about your opinions. Ohio may pay their teachers, but red states in general don't. 

It had been a lot if opinions with no hard evidence or sources to back it up. 

If Steve just doesn't like teachers I don't think he's changing his mind, unfortunately. Heisnt going to realize how critical they can be.

@cccjwh said:

How about you find some evidence to back up your assertions instead of telling me about your opinions. Ohio may pay their teachers, but red state in general don't. 

The average individual salary in those States is also lower. $28,389.00 is the average individual salary in Summit County.

WSS

@westside-steve said:

Speaking of that reading comprehension I never said teachers didn't deserve a decent paycheck. Nearly twice the average individual income in Ohio is more than enough in my opinion. Good teachers certainly have a collection of job skills but in my opinion those job skills are not enhanced by Advanced degree.  Nor are they enhanced by high pay.

Teachers and the better school districts and the School District's and the worst I've taken the same training and probably acquired the same degree. Why are the students in one District failing and the other succeeding? Don't pretend it's the skill of the teachers. As a matter of fact you may be surprised to know that I think the teachers in the shit school district have a harder job because the kids come there with terrible educational backgrounds.

WSS

How about you find some evidence to back up your assertions instead of telling me about your opinions. Ohio may pay their teachers, but red states in general don't. 

@cccjwh said:

Thanks to W and a bunch of tax payers dollars, I work where/when I want. My personal experience has nothing to do with a teachers. You think anyone can teach, so you don't think they deserve a decent paycheck. Good teachers have a collections of job skills, those job skills can bring in more money in a different field. So you have to ask yourself do you want babysitters or teachers. You are OK with babysitter, I am not. 

Speaking of that reading comprehension I never said teachers didn't deserve a decent paycheck. Nearly twice the average individual income in Ohio is more than enough in my opinion. Good teachers certainly have a collection of job skills but in my opinion those job skills are not enhanced by Advanced degree.  Nor are they enhanced by high pay.

Teachers and the better school districts and the School District's and the worst I've taken the same training and probably acquired the same degree. Why are the students in one District failing and the other succeeding? Don't pretend it's the skill of the teachers. As a matter of fact you may be surprised to know that I think the teachers in the shit school district have a harder job because the kids come there with terrible educational backgrounds.

WSS

  Well, my Wife mentioned that she taught some of them chess. She said the next time you get a chance, ask them to play a game of chess with you...

  she did. and the student beat her in chess three times. another student beat her once.

I learned early on, that my Wife was an educator - from her friends at work. The teachers...just had a hell of a tough time getting through any particular day. The students hated them.

@westside-steve said:

CCC, Also as to teachers leaving for better paying jobs and your number was what, 28% said that they would? I would imagine anybody with any job would seriously consider jumping ship for more money. I don't know what any of you guys do for a living but I'm in the minority. For instance I wouldn't take a job working at a music store for twice the money that I make playing. But if I worked a crap job at the music store and the music store across the street wanted to double my salary... Does that sink in?

WSS

Thanks to W and a bunch of tax payers dollars, I work where/when I want. My personal experience has nothing to do with a teachers. You think anyone can teach, so you don't think they deserve a decent paycheck. Good teachers have a collections of job skills, those job skills can bring in more money in a different field. So you have to ask yourself do you want babysitters or teachers. You are OK with babysitter, I am not. 

@the-cysko-kid said:

I'm tired of hearing about how hard teachers jobs are. Today was the second day this week my kids school was delayed and now it was actually cancelled. 

If you're in Northeast Ohio look out your damn window right now and tell me why school had to be cancelled.

It's not about the teachers in that case, it's about the transportation (school buses). I don't agree with it (canceling) either, but I imagine somebody sued somebody (or a school district), in somewhere America after a school bus accident, and it's become a liability headache for every district.

@texasag1969 said:

I lived with an English HS teacher Steve. You are talking out of your hat. I said goodbye in August and hello in June. Every waking hour is spent on schoolwork related stuff, including grading papers thoroughly while eating breakfast, through those lunch hours and "study halls" and all evenings and all weekend long from morning until late at night. Her last year she had 6 classes with 30 in each. Do the math. And have you ever even accurately graded an English paper turned in by a HS student?  They are an absolute mess and only get better if you grade them thoroughly every time you grade them for each individual student.

She had no student assistant and you don't do English with multiple choice/T-F. You have no idea what you are talking about. I do. I watched her do it well over 30 years. It was nice to be married for other than just summers after she retired. Oh, almost forgot. She never let up during T-day week, Xmas "vacation" or Spring break either. Those are a myth for students only. I can't ever remember even visiting family during any of those where she wasn't carting papers along. 

More math. How long do you think it might take to grade even a 500 word paper properly? Multiply that by 180? And they are not "occasional" Steve. They just aren't. Not if you are a decent teacher. You have to get a certain number of papers to put out a grade every 6 weeks. Again, just do the math.

I'm tired of hearing about how hard teachers jobs are. Today was the second day this week my kids school was delayed and now it was actually cancelled. 

If you're in Northeast Ohio look out your damn window right now and tell me why school had to be cancelled.

@westside-steve said:

Approximately 5 classes per day at 45 or 50 minutes each. 180 days out of the year if that many. Even if you take an entire hour for lunch that means you have a couple of hour long study halls.

Also the only ones you actually have to read for the occasional essays and papers. In my experience almost all of the question and answers are graded quickly. True-false and multiple-choice even more quickly. And those are often if not usually rated by a student assistant. As far as I can tell no teacher is ever required to use a coal shovel.

WSS

I lived with an English HS teacher Steve. You are talking out of your hat. I said goodbye in August and hello in June. Every waking hour is spent on schoolwork related stuff, including grading papers thoroughly while eating breakfast, through those lunch hours and "study halls" and all evenings and all weekend long from morning until late at night. Her last year she had 6 classes with 30 in each. Do the math. And have you ever even accurately graded an English paper turned in by a HS student?  They are an absolute mess and only get better if you grade them thoroughly every time you grade them for each individual student.

She had no student assistant and you don't do English with multiple choice/T-F. You have no idea what you are talking about. I do. I watched her do it well over 30 years. It was nice to be married for other than just summers after she retired. Oh, almost forgot. She never let up during T-day week, Xmas "vacation" or Spring break either. Those are a myth for students only. I can't ever remember even visiting family during any of those where she wasn't carting papers along. 

More math. How long do you think it might take to grade even a 500 word paper properly? Multiply that by 180? And they are not "occasional" Steve. They just aren't. Not if you are a decent teacher. You have to get a certain number of papers to put out a grade every 6 weeks. Again, just do the math.

WSS

@texasag1969 said:

LOL! Another ridiculous statement. Cake jobs? You have no f'n idea how hard teaching is or how many hours a week are devoted to it. Try grading English papers for 150 (often much more) students even once a month. Then throw in the much longer research papers which requires teaching all 150 how to do research and assist them with what ideas to develop for research. All 150. And don't get me started on how long it takes just to grade similar amounts of math homework and still be have lesson plans all done every day of the week. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there requiring more time outside of class than it does actually teaching in class. Go sit in as a volunteer for a week and see what they actually do for a living. Make sure you include grading/recording and meetings too.

Approximately 5 classes per day at 45 or 50 minutes each. 180 days out of the year if that many. Even if you take an entire hour for lunch that means you have a couple of hour long study halls.

Also the only ones you actually have to read for the occasional essays and papers. In my experience almost all of the question and answers are graded quickly. True-false and multiple-choice even more quickly. And those are often if not usually rated by a student assistant. As far as I can tell no teacher is ever required to use a coal shovel.

WSS

@diehardbrownsfan said:

The blonde hair kid is right. Real teaching is a gift. Teachers who are worth anything have a teachers heart and passion that thrives on educating students. It is not just a job to them. Any teacher who is just in it for the paycheck is probably typical of this dud of a teacher.

@westside-steve said:

Furthermore I think one of the largest classes of people with Advanced degrees are School teachers most of which I think are lucky to have their cake jobs. Jobs that just about anybody who can read and write could do if they have a little bit of aptitude.

Have before you explode yes I think your degree is harder to get and more necessary to success in your field.

WSS

LOL! Another ridiculous statement. Cake jobs? You have no f'n idea how hard teaching is or how many hours a week are devoted to it. Try grading English papers for 150 (often much more) students even once a month. Then throw in the much longer research papers which requires teaching all 150 how to do research and assist them with what ideas to develop for research. All 150. And don't get me started on how long it takes just to grade similar amounts of math homework and still be have lesson plans all done every day of the week. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there requiring more time outside of class than it does actually teaching in class. Go sit in as a volunteer for a week and see what they actually do for a living. Make sure you include grading/recording and meetings too.

@bob806 said:

Naw. Voters in general aren't very smart regardless of party affiliation. 

Anybody could make a list of career politicians on either side of the aisle that totally suck, yet we keep re electing 'em. 

I got a kick out of something Winston Churchill said about the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. 

@browns149 said:

Going back to the original topic

Are you suggesting GOP voters are not as smart as DEM voters 

Naw. Voters in general aren't very smart regardless of party affiliation. 

Anybody could make a list of career politicians on either side of the aisle that totally suck, yet we keep re electing 'em. 

@westside-steve said:

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

Do something you love to do and you are good at and you should be happy. If it's money you're after find something that you can do that other people can't or that other people don't want to.

WSS

The starting wages for teachers are low. Especially considering all of the schooling involved. 

Getting paid half as much to do something is a big motivator not to do it.

Like how I believe STEM majors in govt. positions would be great, but most don't want anything to do with it. 

@mld-woody said:

Steve, you seemed to make a hard stand here in moving the goalposts. I think you realized you have no way at all to backup the original anti education claims you made ("masters are generally less successful"), so you've dug in deep on the anti teachers narrative. Which, sure, is just a lot more feeling and opinion. I guess you feel like you have a better shot with this one.  

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

Do something you love to do and you are good at and you should be happy. If it's money you're after find something that you can do that other people can't or that other people don't want to.

WSS

@westside-steve said:

But that's what I call aptitude. Some people do that well naturally some people don't. And a master's degree doesn't make you any more or less personable.

Think about it when you were in high school how many teachers did you absolutely love? How many did you dislike? And how many were just babysitters?

WSS

I was pretty much in all of the "advanced" classes in school. Almost all of those teachers were great. None were babysitters. And they all really understood their course work. They helped teach and drive the top of the class. They were very important.

Teachers are incredibly important in students' lives. They deal with a lot of pressure, parents, kids, etc. Poor conditions and salary have driven a lot of people away. People that don't understand what teachers do, don't understand their importance, and just go on about a "summer break" act like they have some cush job. Education especially early education, is the backbone to a lot of things in society. Why we would choose to demonize and pay as little as possible to the people most instrumental in this is beyond me.