@hoorta said:

Look up the stats of Van Brocklin, Baugh, and Graham. They're pretty average (55% completions, 70-80 qbrs) compared to any of today's top quaterbacks.

Jim Brown was great in his era, but he was running over runt defenders. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first DL to top 300 pounds. 

For one thing the football of the early era was nowhere near the dart it is today... much "rounder" and harder to grip. Then there are the rules and the coverages to consider.

@dutch-oven said:

Not Marchetti, it was probably Big Daddy Liscomb from that DLine. 

Pretty sure neither Big Daddy or Art Donovan, another famously rotund DT who played for the Colts, ever played at 300. I think Detroit's Roger Brown was the first DT to top 300 regularly and play at a high level.

300#-ers were around in the 50's (even Paul Brown had one, I forget the name), but were more of a novelty. Read an article once that as recently as 1970 there was only one player in the NFL to top 300.

Reminds me of a Chuck Noll quote that filled the screen while the old PC game, NFL Head Coach, loaded. Went something like...

"Some coaches pray for wisdom. I pray for 270 pound Offensive Tackles... they'll make me seem wise."

@hoorta said:

I never said they didn't count, or didn't exist. By current NFL standards, it was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. 

Look up the stats of Van Brocklin, Baugh, and Graham. They're pretty average (55% completions, 70-80 qbrs) compared to any of today's top quaterbacks. Jim Brown was great in his era, but he was running over runt defenders. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first DL to top 300 pounds. 

Not Marchetti, it was probably Big Daddy Liscomb from that DLine. 

@ous said:

Is it me, or is there a lot of dick and cock talk on this board?

It's even rubbed off on me.

See I just did it again.

You need to bring your virility and testosterone when you come in here, matey.

@hoorta said:

I never said they didn't count, or didn't exist. By current NFL standards, it was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. 

Look up the stats of Van Brocklin, Baugh, and Graham. They're pretty average (55% completions, 70-80 qbrs) compared to any of today's top quaterbacks. Jim Brown was great in his era, but he was running over runt defenders. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first DL to top 300 pounds. 

Look at Bradshaw, Stabler, Staubach, Namath. Starr, etc. even Montana, Marino, Elway.  Compared to todays top QBs.  Don't you get it...they have changed the rules to favor the QBs today.   It is not that these guys are any better really....its just that they are far more protected. .....And to a certain extent, far more likely to dink and dunk, so yea,  completion pcts. will be a lot better.

And Jim Brown would have run over today's defenders as well as any RB playing today.  Even then he was bigger, stronger, faster than the RBs playing today.

6'2 232.   Gurley  6'1 231.  Elliott 6.0 225. 

And look at the career leaders in passer rating:

It's even rubbed off on me.

See I just did it again.

@the-gipper said:

I don't recall ever seeing that.  Is that on their website?

I know that the HOF does list players as pre-modern...but that is only because of their positions.  So many early players played both ways is why they did that. A guy would play both OC and DT......and like Sammy Baugh, he would play QB and then go play safety....and also punt.  But I don't know if WWII is the cutoff.....example: Chuck Bednarik.

But that does NOT mean that their careers should be counted as non-existent....like it seems that some of these assburgers here want to do.

I never said they didn't count, or didn't exist. By current NFL standards, it was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. 

Look up the stats of Van Brocklin, Baugh, and Graham. They're pretty average (55% completions, 70-80 qbrs) compared to any of today's top quaterbacks. Jim Brown was great in his era, but he was running over runt defenders. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first DL to top 300 pounds. 

@dutch-oven said:

Mayfield has the best arm in when considering arm strength AND accuracy. 

Weeden and Derek Anderson had stronger arms, but weren't accurate and possessed zero ability to put touch on the ball. 

I will admit, because we have had so damn many qb's, that often its a struggle to rem them right. Especially DA, that feels like civil war era history. But weedon is still somewhat fresh ob the mind......and that first throw from baker to my foggy recollection, looked as good as anything i ever saw weedon throw. And to hear coach say essentially that they've seen alot longer than that in practice? If weedon had a stronger arm we might be parsing kunt hairs....

Leaders

Zombo said:

Pro Football Hall of Fame considers 1945 the beginning of the modern era.

I don't think you get your wrist slapped with a ruler if you personally consider 1920, 1932 or 1960 the Modern Era. But I go with the HOF.

If you mean "Super Bowl Era" then say "Super Bowl Era" or you can argue with Gipper for a page and a half. (and lose)

Zombo

I don't recall ever seeing that.  Is that on their website?

I know that the HOF does list players as pre-modern...but that is only because of their positions.  So many early players played both ways is why they did that. A guy would play both OC and DT......and like Sammy Baugh, he would play QB and then go play safety....and also punt.  But I don't know if WWII is the cutoff.....example: Chuck Bednarik.

But that does NOT mean that their careers should be counted as non-existent....like it seems that some of these assburgers here want to do.

Or at least post color TV...

Note that Gip demands proof while offering none.

Bullshit....I showed two examples above.  Hutson...he was not at all segregated from later players........and the passing record....still standing, again not segregated.   I can give you hundreds of other examples if you like.

@the-cysko-kid said:

The fact that they keep separate records, especially relating to championships, since 1970 should be all you need. 

No, they don't....where do you see that?   Maybe some media compiles these records separately...but there is nothing officially separating records...at all...see my post above.  Hutson is right in there with the other guys.

@hoorta said:

Gip, you're the only one who cares about that crap. So it's not an "official" decree. But for all intents and purposes, it's a practical one.

No it isn't....there is no practicality to it at all....merely arbitrary because people are too dumb to study history....and only know what has gone on in their own short, miserable lives.  Many people here probably do not remember a time when there were no Jacksonville Jags or Carolina Panthers in the league.....so, no, its just arbitrary.

Like "the post WW II" era, a marker in time.

Why is WWII any more of a marker than WWI?   Its not...it is just more recent.

You want to say every war was just another war since David and the Israelites fought the Philistines?  Same difference.

How about the Civil War....that war is actually still having as much impact on American Society as WWII is...really...I see it...with these fucktards going around with their confederate and nazi flags.

The game of Otto Graham and the 50's Browns isn't the same as the game being played by 2018 teams. Bigger, stronger, faster.

Perhaps true.....but the games played in the 70s and 80s had more in common with the 50s game  than they do with today's game.  

Dick Modelewski played defensive end at 220 pounds. By today's standards, he'd be a very light linebacker. 50 yard field goals were rare back then, now they've gotten routine. They can't move the goalposts back any farther, they'll have to shrink them.  I'd have to wonder if the greatest player of his era- Jim Thorpe could even make it as a kick returner today. Though he was bigger than I thought- 6'1" 203. Free safety?  His "records" in the 1912 Olympics are pathetically slow, or low- by current standards. Usain Bolt has him beat by  three seconds in the 200, and the current record in the 1,500 is a full minute faster than Thorpe's time. You can't train fast. (I disagree with this vehemently...yes, you can)

Sure, training methods have been improved....but an even bigger difference is:  money.  But that too is just arbitrary.  You can't just shut off a sports history because there is now more money....or better training and nutrition.  Otto Graham was bigger than Drew Brees and Baker Mayfield...even if the linemen in front of them are now bigger (fatter?)....Jim Brown was bigger than Todd Gurley and Ezekiel Elliott...and likely faster. 

I mean....are we to do this with each sport?  Nothing in baseball counts before they broke into divisions in 1967?  (OK, the careers of Babe Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mays, Mantle, Wagner etc etc. do not count).   Nothing in the NBA counts until after the merger with the ABA (so throw out the careers of Russell, Cousy, Chamberlain, Petit etc.)   Nothing in Hocky counts until after the merger with the WHA  (Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Esposito, Mikita...all of you can fuck off now.

No....ain't buying no arbitrary cutoff time just for the sake of lazy thinking.

One other point:   do you know when the record for most passing yards in a game was set...and still exists?  LIke  1951....with all the pass happiness we have now....they still knew how to pass the ball for a lot of yards then.  And Don Hutson had 99 pass TD receptions in 11 years between 1935-1945....and only 9 players have more at this point...all of whom played longer careers:

I don't think you get your wrist slapped with a ruler if you personally consider 1920, 1932 or 1960 the Modern Era. But I go with the HOF.

If you mean "Super Bowl Era" then say "Super Bowl Era" or you can argue with Gipper for a page and a half.

Zombo

@hoorta said:

 You want to say every war was just another war since David and the Israelites fought the Philistines?  Same difference. 

Oh, that was a great one! David threw the rock in stride to the target. 

Awesome spiral.

@clevfan4life said:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2018/12/gregg-williams-digs-baker-mayfields-long-ball-and-has-seen-even-longer-in-practice.html

U sure about the arm thing? That first pass of the game convinced me he's got easily the best arm we've had since 99. 62 yds on a med rope, on the money? I mean, maybe weedon tech had the arm for that but it would have landed out of bounds. But coach said in that article they've seen alot longer than 63 yds in practice

Yes, I am sure. Baker's throwing velocity comes from his base and flows up to and thru his arm. From his knees I'm not sure he could sling it 45-yd.

As others pointed out, Wheezy and DA had stronger arms. I'd add Jason Campbell to the list.

@the-cysko-kid said:

Most people consider the modern age the super bowl era. 

Or at least post color TV...

Note that Gip demands proof while offering none.

@the-gipper said:

They are not my rules they are just the rules show me where some motherfucker has declared where any “on “modern football had begun tell me where the NFL has declared that to be an official decree 

The fact that they keep separate records, especially relating to championships, since 1970 should be all you need. 

@the-cysko-kid said:

He's the first browns quarterback since Bernie Kosar to record a touchdown in each of his first ten games. He's keeping some rarified company within the organization, as he's passed Otto Graham for most TDs thrown by a Browns rookie. 

And if we factor in how many consecutive games this franchise went without a win prior to the first game Baker appeared in (and overcame a deficit) - even more remarkable!

@the-gipper said:

They are not my rules they are just the rules show me where some motherfucker has declared where any “on “modern football had begun tell me where the NFL has declared that to be an official decree 

Gip, you're the only one who cares about that crap. So it's not an "official" decree. But for all intents and purposes, it's a practical one. Like "the post WW II" era, a marker in time. You want to say every war was just another war since David and the Israelites fought the Philistines?  Same difference. The game of Otto Graham and the 50's Browns isn't the same as the game being played by 2018 teams. Bigger, stronger, faster. Dick Modelewski played defensive end at 220 pounds. By today's standards, he'd be a very light linebacker. 50 yard field goals were rare back then, now they've gotten routine. They can't move the goalposts back any farther, they'll have to shrink them.  I'd have to wonder if the greatest player of his era- Jim Thorpe could even make it as a kick returner today. Though he was bigger than I thought- 6'1" 203. Free safety?  His "records" in the 1912 Olympics are pathetically slow, or low- by current standards. Usain Bolt has him beat by  three seconds in the 200, and the current record in the 1,500 is a full minute faster than Thorpe's time. You can't train fast. 

@dutch-oven said:

Or post WWII, at least. 

Show me where that was an official decree

@the-cysko-kid said:

Most people consider the modern age the super bowl era. 

Again show me where that was an official decree

@the-cysko-kid said:

Gipper follows his own rules that he insists are right no matter how much no one else ever uses them. 

They are not my rules they are just the rules show me where some motherfucker has declared where any “on “modern football had begun tell me where the NFL has declared that to be an official decree 

@kvoethe said:

..."baker is a set of cock and balls and I love it

I stored this in a folder since March 2nd.. https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/baker_mayfield_nfl_combine.html   not many have had the balls of "Undraftable" wanting to play in Cleveland. Some doubted his words but... Baker Mayfield never doubted his words nor his football talents...he's been a blast to watch since the jets game..    

@orion said:

When he ever trotted out into that Jets game, down by what, 2 TD's...with less than two minutes to go in the half....with NO WORK with the starters all TC and preseason...and in a New York second had spun his first two NFL passes for successive first downs to Browns receivers....I was like,  "Yeah baby!   THAT'S how you make receivers get IN the game!"  -  That Thursday night, the Browns changed from a team that looked like, once again, they weren't going to win a game for the rest of the year....to a team that looked like it 'might' win any game it plays in.

In less than two minutes Baker changed the energy of the team, the stadium, the announcers, and all of us at home who were not lucky enough to be sitting in that stadium being a part of that transition.  That energy lasted through halftime, and NEVER changed back.  When that game ended, and the losing streak was over, and it looked like we HAD our QB.....I turned the sound up to 39 on my TV!    I wanted to feel like I was there.  I wanted to be a part of that feeling.  IT FELT GREAT

It was even more noticeable in the stadium.  The first pass he completed downfield was thrown so hard and looked so good it kinda stunned the stadium.   Then he did it again on the next play and it was then that the energy in that stadium seriously changed.  So glad that I was lucky enough to be in the stadium that night.

And then I tried to remind myself, "Look, Charlie Frye looked off DB's like a pro in his first NFL preseason game.  And after that he never looked a DB off again."  But the more I saw of Baker the more I thought that he might be different.  

So, I was wrong about not wanting to draft Baker for a Rosen type.  

And I compounded THAT wrong with another.  I wanted Baker to sit...perhaps all season, or most of it...to learn the NFL properly.  Ya know, instead of throwing him to the wolves before he was ready, like Manziel, Kessler, Kizer.  Little did I know that Baker WAS THE WOLVES!  And WAS ready.

When he ever trotted out into that Jets game, down by what, 2 TD's...with less than two minutes to go in the half....with NO WORK with the starters all TC and preseason...and in a New York second had spun his first two NFL passes for successive first downs to Browns receivers....I was like,  "Yeah baby!   THAT'S how you make receivers get IN the game!"  -  That Thursday night, the Browns changed from a team that looked like, once again, they weren't going to win a game for the rest of the year....to a team that looked like it 'might' win any game it plays in.

In less than two minutes Baker changed the energy of the team, the stadium, the announcers, and all of us at home who were not lucky enough to be sitting in that stadium being a part of that transition.  That energy lasted through halftime, and NEVER changed back.  When that game ended, and the losing streak was over, and it looked like we HAD our QB.....I turned the sound up to 39 on my TV!    I wanted to feel like I was there.  I wanted to be a part of that feeling.  IT FELT GREAT

The next day at work (remember, I live in New England), I had people coming up to me everywhere I went.  (we've had construction going on in the building for over a year)  Hard Hats were searching me down to give me the thumbs up through my door window.  

Obviously, we've taken some sideways steps since then.  Baker has had a couple of games that were more rookie-like in the stats sheet.  But if you watched him play those games, you never saw the deer in his headlights.  Just frustration.....but a confident frustration.

Now, with Hue & Haley jettisoned, and Williams & Kitchens in charge, the team seems to have gotten yet another jolt of confidence and improvement....as if the anchors that were holding the team back are gone.

Ya know what a Hard Hat told me today in the elevator?  He said, "Your team is fun to watch.  I've got the package so I switch between games...but I switched to your game and I couldn't switch off of it."   NOW THAT IS A SWITCH.  -  And I just remembered what a lady at work said to me today, "Now you can be proud to be a Browns fan."  I just laughed, thanked her and walked away, 'cuz hey, I'm a proud Browns fan anyway....even through these 20 years....but it did feel nice to be a Browns fan today. 

Sorry for being long winded....and thanks to anyone who plowed all the way through this diatribe.