@tiamat63 said:

Not unreasonable but worth mentioning Joe had adjusted to the weight loss and coverage responsibilities better the last couple years in his growth.      While history isn't on his side,  doesn't mean he'll struggle like a rookie when he's a 4th year pro.   

...  I wonder how Devin White would look on the outside?   ?

Never waste the talent of an inside destroyer on OLB!?

Actually he is an inside out destroyer since he can clog the middle AND run down RBs going either way outside. Just a great player.

@tour2ma said:

You are correct... Horton's "3-4" was our D in Joe's rookie year so role was different.

However as the "coverage" OLB in Ray's scheme (Collins arrived to fill the rushing OLB role) there are similar demands. So extrapolating/projecting his performance is not unreasonable.

Not unreasonable but worth mentioning Joe had adjusted to the weight loss and coverage responsibilities better the last couple years in his growth.      While history isn't on his side,  doesn't mean he'll struggle like a rookie when he's a 4th year pro.   

...  I wonder how Devin White would look on the outside?   ?

@tiamat63 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt that under Horton and thus a different role then your 'traditional " Sam backer...? 

You are correct... Horton's "3-4" was our D in Joe's rookie year so role was different.

However as the "coverage" OLB in Ray's scheme (Collins arrived to fill the rushing OLB role) there are similar demands. So extrapolating/projecting his performance is not unreasonable.

@tour2ma said:

He did not look good out there in his first year with us. Issues setting the edge... and he played heavier... which meant his pass D was poor to boot.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt that under Horton and thus a different role then your 'traditional " Sam backer...? 

@dutch-oven said:

 Could Schobert move to one of the OLB spots? 

He did not look good out there in his first year with us. Issues setting the edge... and he played heavier... which meant his pass D was poor to boot.

@flugel said:

Well said Clevsies.  That's 1 thing we won't disagree on - Schobert only has 1 legit starting DT in front of him. 

IMO, Meder was a decent enough run stuffer to not get cut.  Having said that, he wasn't brought here by Dorsey so he was cut regardless of what Williams, fans or anyone thought of him.  I couldn't understand all season why we never brought him back.  

I dont understand why the guys we brought in, price...some guy named laurence.....couldnt adequately fill the role

@tour2ma said:

True... same as a standard PAP bootleg where once outside the pocket some protections, e.g., going low on a tackle, are eliminated. However, others such as late, unnecessary pushes to the ground after the pass is away are still flagged.

That said... I haven't really seen much of that action at the pro level, tia.

Just saw it.      A new little wrinkle that got snuffed out.  

@clevfan4life said:

On schobert, people forget that even the goat ray lewis...his best years were with sam adams and tony siragusa infront of him. Two gianormous block eating kunts. And they lined em up in the double A's forcing the guards to.stay home just like eberfluss does in indy.....i kind of wouldnt mind him as HC tbh seeing what he's done with a somewhat avg DL. 

Well said Clevsies.  That's 1 thing we won't disagree on - Schobert only has 1 legit starting DT in front of him. 

IMO, Meder was a decent enough run stuffer to not get cut.  Having said that, he wasn't brought here by Dorsey so he was cut regardless of what Williams, fans or anyone thought of him.  I couldn't understand all season why we never brought him back.  

@unsympathetic said:

He is not and will never be a starter.  He made ZERO improvement in his coverage over his college and now pro career.  He's great for his role - as long as that role is never starting. Earlier in this thread multiple people asserted Avery was some sort of future starter for this team.. he can't do that.

That's not being "down" on him.. that's simply identifying and playing to his skills.  The NFL demands certain traits from a human to earn one down of playing time.. and when that assignment for Avery includes anything resembling playing in space, he does not have the athleticism to accomplish the task.

He most certainly does have the athletic ability, it just depends on the role you ask.     Also 'starter' is matchup dependent.   I can think of a few times on our schedule next year where I would walk him out with the 1st team squad. 

@clevfan4life said:

Why are u down on avery? He's a 5th round rookie project that made considerable improvements in his rushing and coverage over the course of 1 season. Edge defense is his main weakness that prob wont go away anytime soon cause he's not built for it, doesnt have the length. Which is why he was the long down edge rusher and rotation 43 olb'er.

He is not and will never be a starter.  He made ZERO improvement in his coverage over his college and now pro career.  He's great for his role - as long as that role is never starting. Earlier in this thread multiple people asserted Avery was some sort of future starter for this team.. he can't do that.

That's not being "down" on him.. that's simply identifying and playing to his skills.  The NFL demands certain traits from a human to earn one down of playing time.. and when that assignment for Avery includes anything resembling playing in space, he does not have the athleticism to accomplish the task.

There's a reason his grade is 54.9 even though he holds up pretty well at both setting the edge and rushing the passer.. He's got a hole in his game and it's not when moving forward.  That doesn't mean he's a bad player or that he's not a great roster spot --- it just means he's not someone to consider as a starter, and that's fine.  Quality depth is a good problem to have.. it's how the Ravens are so good as a team D this season, because they can rotate/rest starters.

@dutch-oven said:

That edit is exactly the reason why I asked the question... Devin White at MLB for the Browns would not suck. 

We're gonna have to trade up a lot to get him though. Definitely going in the top 10 and maybe even top 5.

@tiamat63 said:

He could, but having a Mike backer with his wheels and cover ability is pretty damn nice.  

edit: I'm imaging Schob and Devin White on the field and it makes me tingle.

That edit is exactly the reason why I asked the question... Devin White at MLB for the Browns would not suck. 

@dutch-oven said:

It is, especially in today's pass-happy environment. 

But man, he's a weakness when teams decide to stick to the run.

Eh, I don't think Schob is the weakness himself and he seems to handle the ISO well at times.    We lack the interior line at times to keep him clean, Collins when filling freelances a bit too much and has put him in a bad spot or two.   At least, from the couple times I remember.     Like I said previously, we need to take a long look at Chi Town and Roquan smith.  About the same dimensions.  Then take a peak at the line he has in front of him and the impact he has made limiting the run and against the pass.     

Joe can be an exceptional player, but he needs the right kind of help. 

@dutch-oven said:

I like Schobert, I think he's athletic and is obviously the QB of the defense. 

But I'd like a more physical force at MLB. Could Schobert move to one of the OLB spots? 

He was on the outside then moved inside where he is much better 

@tiamat63 said:

He could, but having a Mike backer with his wheels and cover ability is pretty damn nice.  

It is, especially in today's pass-happy environment. 

But man, he's a weakness when teams decide to stick to the run.

@dutch-oven said:

I like Schobert, I think he's athletic and is obviously the QB of the defense. 

But I'd like a more physical force at MLB. Could Schobert move to one of the OLB spots? 

He could, but having a Mike backer with his wheels and cover ability is pretty damn nice.  

edit: I'm imaging Schob and Devin White on the field and it makes me tingle.

But I'd like a more physical force at MLB. Could Schobert move to one of the OLB spots? 

@unsympathetic said:

He will not. And that's why he shouldn't start. He's our top backup LB.. if you are excited about him then we can move on to long snappers and swing tackles.

I agree with Pluto that we should bring in 2, maybe 3 new LB's between the draft and who we can snag in FA.  Who stays? Frankly, I don't give a buckeye

With all due respect, I think you're hurrying your conclusion here.  The same was thought about Schobert by many until some identified the right niche for him with a Pro Bowl to show for it.   After Philip Rivers summarized all his research, he said Schobert is one of the biggest pain in the asses at LBer in the league to match up with in the passing game THIS (especially when we have both Safeties lining up in the same area code as our defense). As fate would have it, Schobert still had a pulled hammy and he never played against the Chargers.  Then again, nobody on defense played against the Chargers when we get right down to it. 

@clevfan4life said:

so "wirey"....really built like a wire no doubt about it

Okay, you want me to get excited he's built like Tim Tebow and Brady Quinn, which would have been fine if we weren't counting on him to be the band aid/temporary solution to our lack of depth and talent at DT...  

@clevfan4life said:

Ogbahs tall and wirey, heehh? Whaa?

he's a fucking monster

Which is it?   A monster wearing an Oklahoma State Cowboys jersey 4 years ago? Or the guy you're always complaining about in Cleveland getting rag-dolled?   Newsflash: Photoshop hasn't helped him as a DT in the trenches...

Anyway, he's listed at 6'4" 275 lbs today; so when he kicks inside to DT to face OGs over 300 lbs - he doesn't confuse me with a more effective guy like Philly's Fletcher Cox and 6'5" 315 lbs. If you're going to be that tall inside - you better have some weight on you.  That said, when there's a compact leverage superiority like Aaron Donald at 6'1" 280 lbs that can remove the legs/base of every OG he faces playing with ideal pad height Ogbah is incapable of. He also has ideal quickness and power to consistently whip double teams. Before him, Geno Atkins was a 6'1" 300 NT that frequented Pro Bowls for Cincy as a leverage pad height role model.  Even Ogunjobi (who's a much more effective DT than Ogbah) is listed at 6'2" 305 lbs this year - which explains why I usually see a much better pad height and push as a result of it than Ogbah provides.   DTs playing this weekend will include 2 Ratbirds weighing 340 lbs (Michael Pierce and Brandon Williams), SD's Brandon Mebane at 6'1" 311 lbs, Chicago's Eddie Goldman at 6'4" 320 lbs, Indy's Al Woods 6'4" 330 lbs and Hassan Ridgeway 6'3" 318 lbs, Houston DJ Reader 6'3" 325 lbs and backup Brandon Dunn 6'2" 300 lbs. Moral of the story, if you're going to be as light as 275 lbs - it seems to favor the more compact, power house guys wired for better pad heights. 

Ogbah is only wired to be a DE which I expect him to be when our line up is complete enough to permit that.  That is, if he's good enough to beat out whoever they bring in.  I wasn't nearly as impressed with him this year as I was before he got injured in 2017. Then again, I'd rather be comparing him at the position he was drafted to play here rather than being a temporary band aid at another position we lack depth and starting talent at.

This brings us back to our debate you're having trouble seeing the whole picture in your quest to win an argument in lieu of discussing the situation.  When Gregg Williams has another guy wired to start at DT in our lineup again - I think you'll see less smoke and mirrors to cover up what's missing.  Didn't I say that before your detour above?  

@unsympathetic said:

He will not. And that's why he shouldn't start. He's our top backup LB.. if you are excited about him then we can move on to long snappers and swing tackles.

I agree with Pluto that we should bring in 2, maybe 3 new LB's between the draft and who we can snag in FA.  Who stays? Frankly, I don't give a buckeye

Why are u down on avery? He's a 5th round rookie project that made considerable improvements in his rushing and coverage over the course of 1 season. Edge defense is his main weakness that prob wont go away anytime soon cause he's not built for it, doesnt have the length. Which is why he was the long down edge rusher and rotation 43 olb'er.

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

Avery will only get better in pass coverage

He will not. And that's why he shouldn't start. He's our top backup LB.. if you are excited about him then we can move on to long snappers and swing tackles.

I agree with Pluto that we should bring in 2, maybe 3 new LB's between the draft and who we can snag in FA.  Who stays? Frankly, I don't give a buckeye

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

So what do you suggest then? Dumping Collins? Trading Avery? And getting another interior DL and finding a new LB?

I would like to see a gap sound 1tech who can hold the point and flow laterally.   Collins can stay because he has utility, Avery absolutely needs to stay and if anything - Kirksey is the one that is really replaceable.