@jrb12711 said:

Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.

There’s probably a healthy and mutually beneficial middle ground here. If ‘20 or ‘21 is what you’re worried about, pay the man now and table this conversation until this time next year. Serves multiple purposes. Veteran presence and production next year, possible tutilage for his successor, and a statement from the team that they will honor their contracts might bode well for the guys you hope to lock up in ‘20 or ‘21. 

@ibleedbrown said:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=LINEBACKER&tabSeq=1&season=2018&akmobile=ios&akmobile=ios&role=&experience=&akcarrier=other&akcarrier=other&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null

I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?

Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too. 

They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.

Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.

@tour2ma said:

Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...

Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.

And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.

Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.

@jrb12711 said:

Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.

Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...

Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.

And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.

@jrb12711 said:

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=LINEBACKER&tabSeq=1&season=2018&akmobile=ios&akmobile=ios&role=&experience=&akcarrier=other&akcarrier=other&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null

I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?

Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too. 

They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.

@tour2ma said:

We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.

As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.

Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.

I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.

And not so much knowing as it is seeing...

@tour2ma said:

You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.

I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...

I’ll ask. I know a long time pro NG. QBs must be good at faking it too. Taking plays off in the pros? It happens. Then they’re ex pros. But I will ask oh arrogant all knowing one

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.

He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”

one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.

Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.

If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....

Came to this thread late, but that's the same way I feel. He looked amazing vs the Falcons, and played well every game after it. 

I'm not crazy about him but agree with others, there's no rush to dump him until the decisions on coaching staff are made.

@jrb12711 said:

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.

As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.

@flyingfooldoug said:

I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!

You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.

I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?

I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority. 

What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.

4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career. 

All that said if White from LSU is still there @ #17, we've got to take him. The guy is the next MLB dominator. And I hope we seriously consider moving up to take him if we have not done anything in FA.

@unsympathetic said:

Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.

And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt.  His season before was the aberration, not the rule.  His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.

Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have.  At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.

I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority. 

What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.

4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career. 

@unsympathetic said:

It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.

Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers.  Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS.  And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.

Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.

Yep and Pluto says we are going LB heavy in this draft/FA.

@darren15 said:

Avery was great

Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things 

And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt.  His season before was the aberration, not the rule.  His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.

Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have.  At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.

One long-term problem this organization has faced is actually drafting LB.. the last 3 LB's we drafted in the first round have all been busts [Craig Powell was the last 1st-round pick before we were Modelled, then Wimbley and Mingo]

@unsympathetic said:

It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.

Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers.  Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS.  And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.

Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.

Avery was great

@unsympathetic said:

It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.

Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers.  Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS.  And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.

Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.

Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things 

Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers.  Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS.  And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.

Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.

@texasag1969 said:

I think that scene where he is congratulating Baker for becoming the second team QB was the killer. You could see the wheels aturnin', "Second team!!?? WTF!!??" No real competitor wants the hear congrats for second team and Baker is the ultimate competitor.

agree, than rub some dirt on it by not getting a single preseason snap with the 1's. Clueless can shut his phone down the rest of the coach hirings ️

@dutch-oven said:

It was obvious in the first two episodes of 'Hard Knocks' that Mayfield wanted nothing to do with Hue.  

I think that scene where he is congratulating Baker for becoming the second team QB was the killer. You could see the wheels aturnin', "Second team!!?? WTF!!??" No real competitor wants the hear congrats for second team and Baker is the ultimate competitor.

@tour2ma said:

The second question is, "Does he freelance too much?"

This is the reason he is in CLE. While we can likely all recall plays where we saw this (or the broadcast analyst pointed it out) this is really a question only Gregg can answer and given his accumulated weekly grade-outs both he and Dorsey already know the answer...

... and remember that freelancing is not necessarily a bad thing if it results in a play made that otherwise would not have been made.

It is interesting that the whole “freelance” tag has followed him for several years and really stuck. Playing linebacker there is a lot of read and react situations. Do you continue towards the QB or tail the tight end who just released downfield? Stuff like that. So they all make a lot of split second instinctual decisions based on the play and who is supposed to be where and responsible for what.

So to me, “freelance” being used as a knock against him is just code for “makes wrong decisions.” But does he? At least more often than not? Or to some degree of unacceptableness? 

I don’t really have the acumen to say one way or another, but his stats and playing time indicate that he’s basically one of our main dudes on defense. You don’t just replace that willy nilly without a better plan going forward.

Collins has two years left on his current contract... $11.75 this coming season and $13.75 in 2020. We have $85.9 and 58.3 in cap space respectively over those two years. So why restructure? Money is not an issue given Jamie's timing. But there are questions we should ask.

The first question we should ask concerns his availability.

2018 was Jamie's first full season of his career since his rookie season... and then he only started half the games for the Pats. He's come close a couple times since, but has always missed at least one game. And this full season follows his career low appearance in six games in 2017. Nevertheless he's only failed to crack 100 tackles twice in a season since he's been a starter... 2017 and 2014 when he missed four games.

The second question is, "Does he freelance too much?"

This is the reason he is in CLE. While we can likely all recall plays where we saw this (or the broadcast analyst pointed it out) this is really a question only Gregg can answer and given his accumulated weekly grade-outs both he and Dorsey already know the answer...

... and remember that freelancing is not necessarily a bad thing if it results in a play made that otherwise would not have been made.