@dutch-oven said:

The consensus theory regarding Sashi's time with the Browns is a solid one.

It means that the argument can be made that nothing bad that happened under his watch was really his fault, but anything good that happened can be linked directly to Sashi.

Its brilliant.  

Also not the way it worked...

When it worked... and it did work at times... the process, the organization got the credit.

@gumby73 said:

what percentage of that credit do you think falls to Paul Depodesta? my issue with both was, neither of them had to comment on anything outside the browns..that they failed at miserably..  

@hoorta said:

OK, I'll buy that explanation. We won't know for sure, but instead maybe The Huebatross had Haslam hypnotized into thinking that trade was a great idea... Just another in the long line of Jimmy's ass-backwards organizational chart of having the coach report directly to him....  

h nailed it gum...

@orion said:

Sashi deserves no credit for that.  He was one of the guys shaking and high fiving hands.  -  He had an aid send the trade confirmation email to the Bengals....but they didn't recognize it because they were expecting it from Sashi.  We dodged the bullet because of his ineptness. 

That dope allowed defensive pro bowlers and Mitchell Shwartz leave in free agency when he took over. - Stupidly thinking that, "We only won four games with ya....we can win more than that without ya."  And I remember saying at the time, 'It CAN get worse'.  And so they proved that it could.     (that DB, Gipson,  made the pro bowl, he wasn't great but a bunch of QB's threw him the ball during the season.   But he wasn't bad.  Sashi let him go start for another team  and replaced him with a bum.  Sashi was a bum.  - people want to praise him for taking Myles Garret when Garret was seen as THE number 1 pick by just about every taking head and sports writer.  The only question at the time was, 'Will the Browns draft a QB because they need one?"  Sashi couldn't afford to pass on Myles and have him go on to shine on another team...and once again look like the dope, so he HAD to draft Garret.  

Heard it said somewhere Shashi felt he had to win every deal- but the McCarron fiasco would have been a huge mistake...  Let's compare Shashi's last year to Dorsey's first. Sent Kenny Britt packing first thing. Win. Shipped Kizer off to Green Bay for Damarious Randall. Win. Nailed the 2018 draft. Sashi 2017 draft push.. . Traded Gordon to the Patriots before the other shoe dropped. Win.  Little wonder there's almost no love for Mr. Brown...   Score- Dorsey 3-0-1 

@dutch-oven said:

I'm giving Sashi full credit for torpedoing that godawful idea, and for that alone there should be a statue of Sashi in front of First Energy... 

Sashi deserves no credit for that.  He was one of the guys shaking and high fiving hands.  -  He had an aid send the trade confirmation email to the Bengals....but they didn't recognize it because they were expecting it from Sashi.  We dodged the bullet because of his ineptness. 

That dope allowed defensive pro bowlers and Mitchell Shwartz leave in free agency when he took over. - Stupidly thinking that, "We only won four games with ya....we can win more than that without ya."  And I remember saying at the time, 'It CAN get worse'.  And so they proved that it could.     (that DB, Gipson,  made the pro bowl, he wasn't great but a bunch of QB's threw him the ball during the season.   But he wasn't bad.  Sashi let him go start for another team  and replaced him with a bum.  Sashi was a bum.  - people want to praise him for taking Myles Garret when Garret was seen as THE number 1 pick by just about every taking head and sports writer.  The only question at the time was, 'Will the Browns draft a QB because they need one?"  Sashi couldn't afford to pass on Myles and have him go on to shine on another team...and once again look like the dope, so he HAD to draft Garret.  

@bjh2130 said:

He didn't torpedo it by turning it down and saying I'm the head of this there is no consensus we are not Trading. He torpedoed it by intentionally messing up the paperwork and not getting it in on time/correctly filled out. So the fact that he had to go that route in order to stop the trade from happening shows they weren't listening to his opposition of the trade. So maybe he wasn't the final say guy because if he had the final say it wouldn't have taken a paperwork debacle to stop that trade.

OK, I'll buy that explanation. We won't know for sure, but instead maybe The Huebatross had Haslam hypnotized into thinking that trade was a great idea... Just another in the long line of Jimmy's ass-backwards organizational chart of having the coach report directly to him....  

@dutch-oven said:

I'm giving Sashi full credit for torpedoing that godawful idea, and for that alone there should be a statue of Sashi in front of First Energy... 

what percentage of that credit do you think falls to Paul Depodesta? my issue with both was, neither of them had to comment on anything outside the browns..that they failed at miserably..  

@dutch-oven said:

I'm giving Sashi full credit for torpedoing that godawful idea, and for that alone there should be a statue of Sashi in front of First Energy... 

OHHHHHHHHHHHH YOU TYPED SASHI ..... SORRY

@bjh2130 said:

He didn't torpedo it by turning it down and saying I'm the head of this there is no consensus we are not Trading. He torpedoed it by intentionally messing up the paperwork and not getting it in on time/correctly filled out. So the fact that he had to go that route in order to stop the trade from happening shows they weren't listening to his opposition of the trade. So maybe he wasn't the final say guy because if he had the final say it wouldn't have taken a paperwork debacle to stop that trade.

I'm giving Sashi full credit for torpedoing that godawful idea, and for that alone there should be a statue of Sashi in front of First Energy... 

@hoorta said:

Sashi did do Browns fans one big favor, torpedoing the trade that would have cost us a second and third round pick to get AJ McCarron....  LOL, did he have to have a consensus there?

He didn't torpedo it by turning it down and saying I'm the head of this there is no consensus we are not Trading. He torpedoed it by intentionally messing up the paperwork and not getting it in on time/correctly filled out. So the fact that he had to go that route in order to stop the trade from happening shows they weren't listening to his opposition of the trade. So maybe he wasn't the final say guy because if he had the final say it wouldn't have taken a paperwork debacle to stop that trade.

@tour2ma said:

At least the price is right...

First, I love having Wentz thrown out as the example... I really do. A question h.... would you trade Baker for Wentz?

Actually it's you who won't admit that you do not understand the consensus approach. I'll simplify it for you...

When there's no consensus, you pass. Whether it's a business strategy or a  football player... no hats involved. You simply move to the strategy/player for which there is consensus. In a draft then it's a matter of whether you take that player with the pick at hand or trade down to tab him at a spot you believe is more in line with his "value".

It's really not that hard guys...

I think I finally got it Tour. I WANT GOFF!!!   I WANT WENTZ!!!  OK, we can't agree there, BUT WE ALL CAN ALL AGREE ON COREY COLEMAN!!!!  FAIL. Then no one is responsible for a bad pick- or they all are...  Could be why Haslam came to the conclusion his grand analytics experiment wasn't working, and decided to go with a more traditional approach. Sort of why Dorsey almost totally cleaned house.  And in a convoluted way of answering your Wentz- Mayfield question.   Sashi did do Browns fans one big favor, torpedoing the trade that would have cost us a second and third round pick to get AJ McCarron....  LOL, did he have to have a consensus there? Tells me he had more say-so than just being a consensus builder. Which reflects on the Huebartoss' (now obvious) epic inability to properly evaluate talent, especially quarterback talent ...  And trying to turn the not ready for prime time (if ever)  Deshone Kizer into a starting NFL quarterback...  FWIW, I probably was the most strident voice out here that MHO Kizer was gonna suck big time in the pros... Score another one for me in the draft game. Can't lay all the blame for 1-15, 0-16 at Sashi's feet, not when Hue was the HC. So...

In light of the above regarding the Baker-Carson question...   If Sashi was still around, he would have traded out of #1 for extra picks- and drafted Josh Allen.     

PS- that said, Wentz is a Pro Bowl level qb- when healthy. Tour, you're justified questioning if Carson is injury prone. He hasn't reached Sam Bradford level yet, but another major injury this year- he's going to be wearing that tag for sure.  The other thing is, had we drafted Wentz- we wouldn't have been in the position to draft Baker, so it's a moot point....  

@the-gipper said:

Whoever would hold that theory though?

Easy, Sashi.  

@dutch-oven said:

The consensus theory regarding Sashi's time with the Browns is a solid one.

It means that the argument can be made that nothing bad that happened under his watch was really his fault, but anything good that happened can be linked directly to Sashi.

Its brilliant.  

Whoever would hold that theory though?

It means that the argument can be made that nothing bad that happened under his watch was really his fault, but anything good that happened can be linked directly to Sashi.

Its brilliant.  

@tiamat63 said:

No hindsight necessary.  I still have some screen shots saved easily calling him the #1 receiver in my mind for that class.   I would have had zero issue taking him in place of where we did with CC.    Sadly, history was not so kind to us.

I hear ya, which is why i said "Well said!" I just added the hindsight 20/20 to show how many teams/scouts didn't have the first clue what this guy was capable of.

@flugel said:

Well said!  Hindsight 20/20 shows we could have traded back even further into round 1 or round 2 (and landed more picks) for the very same Michael Thomas that wasn't drafted until the 47th slot overall in round 2. Hard to believe he was the 6th WR taken in that draft...

No hindsight necessary.  I still have some screen shots saved easily calling him the #1 receiver in my mind for that class.   I would have had zero issue taking him in place of where we did with CC.    Sadly, history was not so kind to us.

@tiamat63 said:

Wentz is not a fine example to use in that regard for Sashi. 

Now...  Corey Coleman in favor or some other players on the board ( including my screaming for Michael Thomas)  might have been a better way to make your argument. 

Well said!  Hindsight 20/20 shows we could have traded back even further into round 1 or round 2 (and landed more picks) for the very same Michael Thomas that wasn't drafted until the 47th slot overall in round 2. Hard to believe he was the 6th WR taken in that draft...

Now...  Corey Coleman in favor or some other players on the board ( including my screaming for Michael Thomas)  might have been a better way to make your argument. 

@orion said:

There's no charge for that service.

At least the price is right...

@hoorta said:

Tour won't admit it- when there was no consensus, and that certainly happened- Shashi did indeed have the final say. And asked his anal-itics guy Depodesta "Wentz won't be a top 20 QB in the NFL" who to draft....    

Say what? they just tossed players names in a hat and pulled one out when "consensus" failed? 

First, I love having Wentz thrown out as the example... I really do. A question h.... would you trade Baker for Wentz?

Actually it's you who won't admit that you do not understand the consensus approach. I'll simplify it for you...

When there's no consensus, you pass. Whether it's a business strategy or a  football player... no hats involved. You simply move to the strategy/player for which there is consensus. In a draft then it's a matter of whether you take that player with the pick at hand or trade down to tab him at a spot you believe is more in line with his "value".

It's really not that hard guys...

@orion said:

.....just give up Gip.

Tour won't admit it- when there was no consensus, and that certainly happened- Shashi did indeed have the final say. And asked his anal-itics guy Depodesta "Wentz won't be a top 20 QB in the NFL" who to draft....    

Say what? they just tossed players names in a hat and pulled one out when "consensus" failed?  

Thank God that's over and done with. The new order is Dorsey looked over Depodesta's "anal-itics" and last draft told Paul- "go sit over there in a corner, and when I want your opinion, I'll ask for it".   

@tour2ma said:

Picking players was never part of his job description.

Really?  Then why was he doing that job? Or having any say in it.

Thanks again for proving my point.

@tour2ma said:

Thanks again for proving my point.

There's no charge for that service.

@hoorta said:

I'll give that draft a "C" mabe a "C-"  average to below average at best. Considering first round pick Stonehands Coleman is barely hanging on with the Giants,  and half the guys they drafted (quantity is better than quality mentality) aren't even on the team anymore, and a few are out of the league. 

Compare that to Dorsey's 5 starters, a rookie who made the Bro Bowl, and the guy who should (but probably won't) win the OROTY.  A+ there maybe?   

Next week I'm going to start a thread on this very subject, since that draft class just finished it's third season. (Which is when many think you can start grading a draft class). 

@runyon27 said:

 I don't think Sashi could have picked any better player than I could have or most of us during his tenure and to me thats a problem.

Picking players was never part of his job description.

@orion said:

Sashi Brown (born May 15, 1976) is an American attorney and former executive for the Cleveland Browns. He was the Executive Vice President of football operations for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League from January 3, 2016, until his firing on December 7, 2017.

Thanks again for proving my point.

@hoorta said:

hindsight tells me Depodesta's fingerprints are all over the 2016 draft....   

I can't argue much with that.   After all, there were a couple of comments that he made to the media after the draft.

1 -  We don't think Carson Wentz will be a top 20 QB in the league.

2 -  We drafted players that were productive in college.  (I remember thinking, But does their college production project to NFL production?)

@orion said:

Sashi Brown (born May 15, 1976) is an American attorney and former executive for the Cleveland Browns. He was the Executive Vice President of football operations for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League from January 3, 2016, until his firing on December 7, 2017.

Yeah- Sashi proved being a Harvard lawyer doesn't necessarily make you a good football executive...   As Jimmy Haslam found out- "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit."  Sashi may well have been a master of both...  

@tour2ma said:

I stand by my statement. Thanks for proving my point.

Regarding Sashi and "consensus".  I have no proof of this, but MHO is- when there was no consensus, he picked the wrong guy...  aided and abetted by Depodesta...   From what we know of Dorsey picking Kitchens as Head Coach over what's-his-name (favored by you know who), hindsight tells me Depodesta's fingerprints are all over the 2016 draft....