@nero said:

I'm enjoying the discussion and you have many valid points, but I prefer not losing a final, because the blow is bigger.

I prefer having 5 conference final losses than 4 SB appearances (Bills, Vikings, I see you)

Valid point, I just disagree. I wonder if you asked Dan Marino after going to 1 which he would rather have. 

But I also see the other side, and not being from Cleveland I have a different view with other sports than most of yall, as I cant stand LBJ. The worst part is now he is on my favorite basketball team. But anywho, he is talked about different because he lost all those finals. 

@the-gipper said:

Well....I go back to 1960 when the Boston Patriots started.  They were like the worst team in that league for that whole decade....and actually, their rival for worst team:  the Denver Broncos. 

I think if you compare their record in the 1960s you would find that they sucked and that the Browns did not.

And in MY remembrance, the Pats sucked balls for a very, very long time.  And even after they went to the SB to get hammered by the Bears, they sucked balls again for the next number of years.   But like I said, when Parcells took over, they began their upward flight. 

But the ultimate bottom line to all this is:  I want them to again start sucking balls the way Robert Kraft sucks whore's tits fairly soon.

Well I doubt that happens for awhile, but either way doesn't matter to me 

@gunz41 said:

Getting there any losing is more impressive than not getting there to me. And I would guess that a lot of people would rather have had their team in the SB than not. 

I'm enjoying the discussion and you have many valid points, but I prefer not losing a final, because the blow is bigger.

I prefer having 5 conference final losses than 4 SB appearances (Bills, Vikings, I see you)

@gunz41 said:

I'm not questioning the Browns success during the time, but in my opinion I cant say a team that reached the SB twice could be classified as one of the worst teams. 

Getting there any losing is more impressive than not getting there to me. And I would guess that a lot of people would rather have had their team in the SB than not. 

As it sits at the moment, there is a reason why many have questions about the Browns even with the great looking roster on paper. 

In fact, I know that part of the good years of the Browns, so I went back and looked. I know you like old history. I went back to 1971 since that is when NE entered the NFL. So 71-00.

New England: 215-243 which is .469 and 2 Super Bowl appearances

Cleveland: 192-215. Which is .471. Cleveland also had 3 ties, which if you factor them in as half a win, it gets them to .473 rounded up.

Cleveland 10 playoff appearances, 3 Conference championship appearances 

New England 9 playoff appearances, 2 conference championship wins and 2 Super Bowl losses

Well....I go back to 1960 when the Boston Patriots started.  They were like the worst team in that league for that whole decade....and actually, their rival for worst team:  the Denver Broncos. 

I think if you compare their record in the 1960s you would find that they sucked and that the Browns did not.

And in MY remembrance, the Pats sucked balls for a very, very long time.  And even after they went to the SB to get hammered by the Bears, they sucked balls again for the next number of years.   But like I said, when Parcells took over, they began their upward flight. 

But the ultimate bottom line to all this is:  I want them to again start sucking balls the way Robert Kraft sucks whore's tits fairly soon.

@the-gipper said:

Well, maybe they started to become good when Parcells took over....but I don't think I want to give much credit to a team coached by Ron Meyer and QBed by Tony Eason.  I mean, a number of franchises have had a bit of luck to fall into one Super Bowl.  Chargers, Titans, Cards, some others

But 5 times the Browns have lost the game leading into the Super Bowl.  That has not happened to any other team.

I'm not questioning the Browns success during the time, but in my opinion I cant say a team that reached the SB twice could be classified as one of the worst teams. 

Getting there any losing is more impressive than not getting there to me. And I would guess that a lot of people would rather have had their team in the SB than not. 

As it sits at the moment, there is a reason why many have questions about the Browns even with the great looking roster on paper. 

In fact, I know that part of the good years of the Browns, so I went back and looked. I know you like old history. I went back to 1971 since that is when NE entered the NFL. So 71-00.

New England: 215-243 which is .469 and 2 Super Bowl appearances

Cleveland: 192-215. Which is .471. Cleveland also had 3 ties, which if you factor them in as half a win, it gets them to .473 rounded up.

Cleveland 10 playoff appearances, 3 Conference championship appearances 

New England 9 playoff appearances, 2 conference championship wins and 2 Super Bowl losses

@unsympathetic said:

Can make the case for Shannon Sharpe as best blocking TE

Or Gonzalez

He's talked about as a good blocker, but NE was only 5th this year in rushing and have never led the league. 

Only 5th??? That's your counter-argument???

@darren15 said:

Look at the Pats WR and TE depth chart

Post it and we will.

@tour2ma said:

Great player... hard worker (work hard play hard).

In addition to his physical gifts and receiving prowess, he was one of the best blocking TEs I've ever seen...

Can make the case for Shannon Sharpe as best blocking TE

Or Gonzalez

He's talked about as a good blocker, but NE was only 5th this year in rushing and have never led the league.

@gunz41 said:

I know what you were trying to say. But even when they were a good team, the Browns couldn't reach the height of the bad Patriots. 

Just doesn't make sense to me to call them so bad when they obtained something like that. 

Well, maybe they started to become good when Parcells took over....but I don't think I want to give much credit to a team coached by Ron Meyer and QBed by Tony Eason.  I mean, a number of franchises have had a bit of luck to fall into one Super Bowl.  Chargers, Titans, Cards, some others

But 5 times the Browns have lost the game leading into the Super Bowl.  That has not happened to any other team.

@the-gipper said:

They were still one of the worst teams in football during that period far worse than the Browns lots of teams were worse than the browns and made a Super bowl

I know what you were trying to say. But even when they were a good team, the Browns couldn't reach the height of the bad Patriots. 

Just doesn't make sense to me to call them so bad when they obtained something like that. 

@mjp28 said:

One of the best all time TEs he won a lot of games just on his grit and detrrmination.

Tom Brady and the Pats nation will miss him.....big time.

Agree...

And reflect for a second on what could have been had the Pats developed their Gronk-Aaron Hernandez, 2-TE set.

We saw one year of this... and it was impressive to say the least.

@gunz41 said:

"One of those really bad teams in football, the way they were from 1960-2000."

This certainly doesn't look good from a fellow Browns fan. In those terrible years, they made 2 more Super Bowl appearances than the Browns.

They were still one of the worst teams in football during that period far worse than the Browns lots of teams were worse than the browns and made a Super bowl

@the-gipper said:

I don't dislike him at all.....not even because he is a Patriot!!     I a just tired of the Patriots. I give them one more year with Brady and then they can go back to being one of the really bad teams in football, the way they were from 1960-2000.

"One of those really bad teams in football, the way they were from 1960-2000."

This certainly doesn't look good from a fellow Browns fan. In those terrible years, they made 2 more Super Bowl appearances than the Browns.

@secondwave said:

Gronk's peak was probably better than any TE ever. Just a beast. Great blocker as well.

It helped him a lot that he may have had the GOAT throwing the ball to him. Not that he would not have been great otherwise.  But let's face it.....if he had Cody Kessler, DeShone Kizer, John P. Football, Brandon Weeden...and some of the other bunch we had at trigger....he may not have made as big of an impact.

@texasag1969 said:

Gronk when healthy was to the Pats what the ageless one has been for the Chargers, the go to guy when the chips are down. I'd like to see Gates just one more season.

I had Gates for years on my FL teams he was a WR at TE along with a few others. A great TE who can block and catch is a real asset.

There are only maybe 3 or 4 in any given year that can rack up FL points......or win games!

@the-gipper said:

Although, they won the Super Bowl vs. ATL  without Gronk playing at all.

@calfoxwc said:

Brady had serious trouble without Gronk in the line-up. So, I expect they will try to replace him fast.

But apparently, they want Jared Cook but he wants to sign with the Saints. Stay tuned?

Interesting:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2019/03/25/rob-gronkowski-new-england-patriots-nfl-draft-tight-end/3263848002/

Although, they won the Super Bowl vs. ATL  without Gronk playing at all.

But apparently, they want Jared Cook but he wants to sign with the Saints. Stay tuned?

Interesting:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2019/03/25/rob-gronkowski-new-england-patriots-nfl-draft-tight-end/3263848002/

@nero said:

You can dislike him because he was a Patriot, but not because he was either a douche or a bad player. 

I have enjoyed a lot watching him play. Few times you can see someone being at the same time so big and so fast, he made DCs dream with him, thinking who would they assign him or how would they stop him... Some of the plays he has made are outright amazing. 

He was a lot of fun and I hope his body is not too beaten up so he can enjoy the rest of his life keeping that smile and cheer of his.

I don't dislike him at all.....not even because he is a Patriot!!     I a just tired of the Patriots. I give them one more year with Brady and then they can go back to being one of the really bad teams in football, the way they were from 1960-2000.