Linebacker...for starters....cuz we are weak here.....upgraded starters and depth needed.....

O line too.....upgrades in starters and depth needed....

Improved QB depth would be nice....

DB's across the board....cant have enough

Maybe some more good WR's......

TE anybody?.....

Do we have any prospective kick or punt returners???

Any Holes left to Fill?

We'll find out........once we start playing other teams.....in August.  

@tour2ma said:

1. Did Dorsey say he'd upgraded our LB room significantly??? Link? I'm sure he liked the players he took, but that's not the same thing.

As for my take... this was not a good LB class. Of the eleven positions in the draft Zierlein ranked LB 11th. I do not see how expectations can run high for prospects picked in the 3rd and 5th rounds of a relatively weak class.

BTW... Zierlein ranks the 2019 CB class 10th and Safety class 7th.

2. So basically you agree with me, i.e., any improvement of the team we field depends upon the three vets I discussed. Thanks...

3 veteran linebackers?

@the-gipper said:

1. Well....I think that Dorsey recognized some potential holes.....in the LB room and the DB room....which is why he went after a corner, a safety, and  two LBs in this draft.  You say that the Browns did not "upgrade the LB room significantly in the draft".   One Mr. John Dorsey may take issue with that position given that he took Takitaki and Wilson.     Tell us why you think Dorsey is wrong and you think you are right.
2. My position is that while certainly these draft picks at LB are not proven....they still increase the quality of the depth we have there over what backups are/were otherwise on hand. And maybe they will prove to become quality NFL starters. Maybe.  (everything is a maybe)

1. Did Dorsey say he'd upgraded our LB room significantly??? Link? I'm sure he liked the players he took, but that's not the same thing.

As for my take... this was not a good LB class. Of the eleven positions in the draft Zierlein ranked LB 11th. I do not see how expectations can run high for prospects picked in the 3rd and 5th rounds of a relatively weak class.

BTW... Zierlein ranks the 2019 CB class 10th and Safety class 7th.

2. So basically you agree with me, i.e., any improvement of the team we field depends upon the three vets I discussed. Thanks...

@poeticg said:

This team has no holes now. For the first time is a long, long time, our ship is not leaking. They have reinforced the hull and added new sails as well. FULL SPEED AHEAD, WE'VE A LOMBARDI TO CATCH! 

@tour2ma said:

Meanwhile back at the thread....

As for "holes"... obviously based upon the flood of threads on how great each of our 2019 picks are... we can't have any. And in a sense we do not.

Our roster has progressed to the stage where we have positions where we can still "improve", but the current player looks to be adequate.... something that was far from true 3 years ago.

That said... I still have concerns about our D. Whenever a new Coord/a new system is introduced, the so too is uncertainty introduced. The biggest mitigating factor I see is the talent level of veteran leadership in the various "rooms".

The DL Room: Clearly our strongest room only got stronger thru FA. We expect this group to flourish.

The DB Room: Less veteran in total, especially should Greedy claim LCB as his own, but we are vet where it counts most, up the middle... and our vet Safeties are better than average.

Anyone notice that I skipped a room?

The LB Room: Not especially "vet"... not especially talented going into FA, we came out of FA less so on both counts and did not upgrade the room significantly in the Draft. Certainly there is a scenario thru which we emerge just fine... namely:

• Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...
• Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
• Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

Well....I think that Dorsey recognized some potential holes.....in the LB room and the DB room....which is why he went after a corner, a safety, and  two LBs in this draft.  You say that the Browns did not "upgrade the LB room significantly in the draft".   One Mr. John Dorsey may take issue with that position given that he took Takitaki and Wilson.     Tell us why you think Dorsey is wrong and you think you are right.

My position is that while certainly these draft picks at LB are not proven....they still increase the quality of the depth we have there over what backups are/were otherwise on hand. And maybe they will prove to become quality NFL starters. Maybe.  (everything is a maybe)

@tour2ma said:

        Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...

• Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
• Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

Let me throw in a factor that I think improves those odds immensely. Having a DL fully capable of keeping OLs so busy trying to stop them that they don't get to the LBs anywhere near what we have been seeing for years.

@tour2ma said:

Disagree with your conclusion...

Barry made a lot of yards juking defenders in the hole, reversing his field, etc., i.e., true individual effort, truly making something of nothing.

We did not see a lot of that from Chubb.

Rather with Chubb we saw the OL popping him to the and third level of off-balance defenses early and often with stuffs and bottled up runs in between. Most often when everyone knew we were running, we did not run successfully, but I am hard-pressed to think of a team that did.

The one stat in the article you did not list was "Open Field Yards"

This kind of "Home run" , boom-or -bust performance is IMO indicative of an underdeveloped run game in total more than a dependency upon a something from nothing RB.

A record breaking 92 yarder helped with that for sure.  And FYI  I called that play just before it happened  (ask WSS)

@texasag1969 said:

Max Unger retired.

I know there are a few on that list that retired....but, of course, nothing is official until the season starts (and maybe not even then....see Jason Witten)

Gronkowski there, Kyle Williams,...both also announced retirements I believe.   Maybe a couple of others.

As for "holes"... obviously based upon the flood of threads on how great each of our 2019 picks are... we can't have any. And in a sense we do not.

Our roster has progressed to the stage where we have positions where we can still "improve", but the current player looks to be adequate.... something that was far from true 3 years ago.

That said... I still have concerns about our D. Whenever a new Coord/a new system is introduced, the so too is uncertainty introduced. The biggest mitigating factor I see is the talent level of veteran leadership in the various "rooms".

The DL Room: Clearly our strongest room only got stronger thru FA. We expect this group to flourish.

The DB Room: Less veteran in total, especially should Greedy claim LCB as his own, but we are vet where it counts most, up the middle... and our vet Safeties are better than average.

Anyone notice that I skipped a room?

The LB Room: Not especially "vet"... not especially talented going into FA, we came out of FA less so on both counts and did not upgrade the room significantly in the Draft. Certainly there is a scenario thru which we emerge just fine... namely:

• Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...
• Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
• Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

@unsympathetic said:

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing

Disagree with your conclusion...

Barry made a lot of yards juking defenders in the hole, reversing his field, etc., i.e., true individual effort, truly making something of nothing.

We did not see a lot of that from Chubb.

Rather with Chubb we saw the OL popping him to the and third level of off-balance defenses early and often with stuffs and bottled up runs in between. Most often when everyone knew we were running, we did not run successfully, but I am hard-pressed to think of a team that did.

The one stat in the article you did not list was "Open Field Yards"

Open Field Yards

From FBO: “gives the portion of the team’s rushing average gained after the first 10 yards of each run. So for a 10-yard run, no yards are counted; for a 15-yard run, five yards are counted; for an 80-yard run, 70 yards are counted. This number gives you an idea of how much of a team’s running game was based on the breakaway speed of the running backs.”

Browns Rank: 4th

This kind of "Home run" , boom-or -bust performance is IMO indicative of an underdeveloped run game in total more than a dependency upon a something from nothing RB.

  Tank Top Friday's..comes to The Land..relax, till the pads come on         

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/11/14/18094128/rookie-running-backs-ranking-saquon-barkley-nick-chubb

1. Saquon Barkley, Giants

Pick: First round, second pick; second overall

Stats: 131 rushes, 586 yards, 4.5 YPC, five touchdowns; 62 receptions, 530 yards, two touchdowns

2. Nick Chubb, Browns

Pick: Second round, third pick; 35th overall

Stats: 94 rushes, 579 yards, 6.2 YPC, five touchdowns; six receptions, 48 yards, one touchdown

*********************************************************************

   and THAT is with OBJ with the Giants. Wait til you get a load of Jarvis Landry and OBJ, and co. You can't run if you can't

throw. Kitchens and Baker and the boys opened that up, but not til later on in the season. Nick had as many TD's as Barkley, and

comparing Chubb's late start 94 rushes to Barkley's 131 rushes, Barkley only ran for 7 more yards.

    No worries from me about the offensive line. If it's a problem, I'll be shocked.

@unsympathetic said:

OL

If Corbett could have been flipped for any of those available at the top of the 2nd this year, he should have been.  And perhaps the Hubbard experiment won't be as kind the second year through.  Yes, we have decent passpro at the backup spots - but My .02 says that we'll have problems in the run game this season thanks to the right side of the line getting caved in.  And our TE's are never going to be mistaken for Gronk's dominance in the run game.Last year's OL run block was near the worst in several metrics - and we made that line substantially worse this season by removing Zeitler.  We had a epic season from Chubb - and I'd bet on a more reversion-to-the-league-avg season from him this time.From the link, we were:

18th in average yards directly attributable to the OL4th from the worst [29th] in % of total rushes stuffed at or behind LOS

Dead last in % of runs converted on 3/4th down with <= 2 yards to go.

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing -- and last season he was actually able to do it.  All the yards were thanks to Chubb doing things on his own.  I hope he'll be able to repeat, but it's a substantially tougher task given that we're replacing Zeitler with Corbett.  As well, note that Kitchens' scheme did not change this.

   Fair enough - except you have to consider the yearly stats vs when Baker Mayfield too the helm, when Chubb got to start, and when Kitchens became head coach.

   As usual, there are two sides to this story - https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Board/105323/Contents/Browns-offensive-line-stats-sacks-and-ratings-126926131/

   According to the info in the link:

@unsympathetic said:

OL

If Corbett could have been flipped for any of those available at the top of the 2nd this year, he should have been.  And perhaps the Hubbard experiment won't be as kind the second year through.  Yes, we have decent passpro at the backup spots - but My .02 says that we'll have problems in the run game this season thanks to the right side of the line getting caved in.  And our TE's are never going to be mistaken for Gronk's dominance in the run game.

Last year's OL run block was near the worst in several metrics - and we made that line substantially worse this season by removing Zeitler.  We had a epic season from Chubb - and I'd bet on a more reversion-to-the-league-avg season from him this time.

From the link, we were:

18th in average yards directly attributable to the OL

4th from the worst [29th] in % of total rushes stuffed at or behind LOS

Dead last in % of runs converted on 3/4th down with <= 2 yards to go.

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing -- and last season he was actually able to do it.  All the yards were thanks to Chubb doing things on his own.  I hope he'll be able to repeat, but it's a substantially tougher task given that we're replacing Zeitler with Corbett.  As well, note that Kitchens' scheme did not change this.

Really well put together post. We seemed to hear a lot about Chubb’s “yards after contact” last year like it was a feather in the cap, but of course it’s ideal to have that contact happen a little further out than where it tended to be last year. Real good thinking material. 

I did like the core of our Oline play last year. Big Bitonio fan. Really liked Zeitler, and really like Tretter, but he seems to eternally play with an ankle sprain. 

I feel like l’ve read the phrase “the Hubbard experiment” enough that it irks me. I think he went through his adjustment period early in the season like many a guy would on a new team, but panned out well enough imo that we can remove the “experiment” from his name. 

Still, room for improvement. l kinda feel like we’ve laid the groundwork for said improvement though. I’m not counting out Corbett yet, but l still think he needs to get rid of that baby face a grow some scruff. We also signed a few solid vets in the offseason and Forbes could develop into something special. I dunno. I think the groundwork was laid to improve the Oline in an organic fashion, but only time will tell.