@oldbrownsfan said:

Good morning. We’re a lot closer on this than you think. I have not suggested condoning or excepting this lifestyle. Nor have I suggested that people of this lifestyle hold positions in a church. 

I understand that those positions are for those of spiritual authority. Authority not achieved by leading a sinful lifestyle.

Telling brethren they cannot hold positions in the church while leading this lifestyle is a layup because it’s in such contrast to our fundamental beliefs. That sort of rejection is justified  because it’s based on inalienable truth.

My concern is for the ones completely shut out from the study of the word and spiritual guidance. Anytime that happens, we miss an opportunity to save a lost soul.  With the end of days coming, we cannot afford to squander those opportunities.

I’ll close with, thanks for this stimulating fellowship and discussion. I pray you got as much out of this as I have.

@marcus said:

I’m just saying there are people claiming to be Christians that are acting in a manner that is the direct opposite of Christ’s teachings. They are modern day Pharisees and Sadducees.

Righteousness is a great thing as long as it is HIS righteousness imparted to us and not our own self righteousness. Self righteousness is usually what gets Christians acting in a manner they shouldn't be. 

I never once said their lifestyle was acceptable because we all know it is not.  On the other side of that coin they should not be hated for it. I’m saying minister to them with same level of conviction as any other lost soul. I see and hear very little of that going on. In a general sense not talking to anyone in particular.

I'm with you on love the sinner and hate the sin. My concern though is I believe we are living in the end times and are witnessing the great falling away the bible states would happen before the return of the Lord. There is a divide in Christianity today between those churches who believe what the bible teaches and those who are willing to throw the bible under the bus to conform and get the applause of the world. The latter churches are the ones who ordain gay ministers, march in gay parades and are usually pro abortion and anti Israel as well. Focus on the Family for instance is a very good Christian organization but they are targeted by the militant gay community because they will not bend their knee to the altar of political correctness and accept and condone  homosexuality. Focus on the Family is in fact concerned about everyone's salvation including the gay community and they love them enough to tell them the truth.

I reiterate wasn’t speaking to anyone in particular. However, I’ve seen people of that lifestyle treated unfairly and been subject to cruelty by people claiming to be (self righteous) Christians.

They are regularly kept out of churches or if even if they’re allowed in, they’re not welcome. I’ve witnessed this, in not just one church but many.

A church I attended once had a gay person removed from a position in the church because they were openly living as being gay. I agreed with that 100 percent as I would if a person was removed from a position in the church if they were openly living as an adulterer. The gay person in our church was not expelled from church just removed from having a position in the church. The church wanted to see the person repent instead they got mad and left the church. 

About the militants you spoke of. Yes, they go too far. The wedding cake thing was just insanity. As it is with Chic fil A. Those aren’t the persons, or entities I’m talking about. I’m talking about the people that blatantly mistreat these people in the Lord’s name.

While I recognize the Old Testament is a driving force against homosexuality. The New Testament’s central theme is about Salvation through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We have to teach them that. Then we must have faith that Jesus will take care of the rest however that may happen. Rather it’s through his guidance of us or by their own study of the word and prayer.

The New Testament is what I am more focused on as that is the covenant I am under. The Apostle Paul was handpicked by Jesus Himself to take the gospel to the Gentiles. The Apostle Paul clearly condemned homosexuality as a sin (along with some other sexual sins) that would keep a person from entering heaven unless it was repented of. Christians must be obedient to what the bible teaches. 

If we do our part and do as Solomon did, ask God for wisdom and discernment we can turn this around. Throwing scripture at them is not enough especially since the word is already foreign to them. We must ask God for his guidance to put the word into context they can understand. So that they see what they are doing is wrong through lenses they’ve never used before.

I'm with you until  it gets to the point where we are seen as condoning or accepting sin. Even the Apostle Paul said he became all things to all people in order to get people saved and getting people saved is our primary motivation not turning people away. But we cannot compromise the word of God to do it and the Apostle Paul would never do that either.

I do feel that Christianity is under attack. I also feel as if Christians have failed to do Christ justice in some ways. Until we accept that the shortcomings of our approach to people of this lifestyle, we will continue to fail to reach them on a grand scale.

I see what you are saying but I know of some very godly, loving and kind compassionate ministers of the gospel who are targeted today because they will not compromise on clear bible teachings. You spoke of the least resistance route and the easiest least resistance  route today for a Christian is to "go along to get along" approach and not rock the boat with bible teachings that are not popular with the world today. Many times if a Christian is too popular with the world I see red flags. Jesus said the world hated him and they will hate us too. An old time minister and mentor of mine once said he had a message that either made people mad or glad and that is what the true gospel message does.

I never once said their lifestyle was acceptable because we all know it is not.  On the other side of that coin they should not be hated for it. I’m saying minister to them with same level of conviction as any other lost soul. I see and hear very little of that going on. In a general sense not talking to anyone in particular.

I reiterate wasn’t speaking to anyone in particular. However, I’ve seen people of that lifestyle treated unfairly and been subject to cruelty by people claiming to be Christians.

They are regularly kept out of churches or if even if they’re allowed in, they’re not welcome. I’ve witnessed this, in not just one church but many.

About the militants you spoke of. Yes, they go too far. The wedding cake thing was just insanity. As it is with Chic fil A. Those aren’t the persons, or entities I’m talking about. I’m talking about the people that blatantly mistreat these people in the Lord’s name.

While I recognize the Old Testament is a driving force against homosexuality. The New Testament’s central theme is about Salvation through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We have to teach them that. Then we must have faith that Jesus will take care of the rest however that may happen. Rather it’s through his guidance of us or by their own study of the word and prayer.

If we do our part and do as Solomon did, ask God for wisdom and discernment we can turn this around. Throwing scripture at them is not enough especially since the word is already foreign to them. We must ask God for his guidance to put the word into context they can understand. So that they see what they are doing is wrong through lenses they’ve never used before.

I do feel that Christianity is under attack. I also feel as if Christians have failed to do Christ justice in some ways. Until we accept that the shortcomings of our approach to people of this lifestyle, we will continue to fail to reach them on a grand scale.

@oldbrownsfan said:

My wife babysat for a gay lady for years. We became friends. There was a bridge we could never cross and that was acceptance and condoning of her lifestyle. We accepted her not her sin.

There is a militant type of gay activism  that is bent on forcing acceptance that you are not recognizing . If a Christian's conscience will not permit them to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage they will sue and try to drive them out of business. If Drew Brees makes a video about bringing a bible to school and it is sponsored by a Christian organization that believes what the bible teaches about gay marriage and homosexuality then he belongs to a hate group and should be punished. Chick fil A must be boycotted. A CEO must be driven from office for supporting traditional marriage.This is the battle I am speaking of and I will take the position of Joshua .."If it seems evil for you  to serve the Lord choose this day whom you will serve but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord". 

The saying that we are not to judge is heard all the time today yet we absolutely are told to judge. Jesus warned us however many times we don't have all the facts so be cautious in judging. The word of God itself judges us. When Jesus forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery remember he never condoned or accepted her sin and told her to "go and sin no more".   

No churches I know of keep gay people from attending. They do rightly keep them from any positions in the church as they are openly living in sin. The problem is not Christians standing at the door keeping out gays the problem today are militant gays that want to see bible believing Christians punished for believing what the bible teaches about traditional marriage and homosexuality. 

@marcus said:

I understand what they want, approval shouldn’t happen because it’s contrary to our beliefs. However accepting them isn’t too much of a stretch. Acceptance as followers of Christ or (potential) followers of Christ. We are to hate the sin and not the person. Teach them the story of Jesus Christ and share our personal journey with him all in effort to lead them to Christ. The rest is between them and God.

Rejecting that community, is counter intuitive and counter productive. It’s similar behavior to that of the Pharisees and Sadducees. We tell people to confess their sins to Jesus and God and normally under any other circumstances welcome them. 

Yet with the LGBTQ Community, we stand at the door of the temple, do not not allow them to enter; and because of our blind rejection we sin and we ourselves do not enter.

I know this is a touchy and uncomfortable topic. I’m simply saying driving them from God by rejecting them is not the way.

like I"ve always said - I always treated gays like I treated everybody else - with respect as people.

but socially, I will never condone their lifestyle, never accept it.

@marcus said:

I understand what they want, approval shouldn’t happen because it’s contrary to our beliefs. However accepting them isn’t too much of a stretch. Acceptance as followers of Christ or (potential) followers of Christ. We are to hate the sin and not the person. Teach them the story of Jesus Christ and share our personal journey with him all in effort to lead them to Christ. The rest is between them and God.

Rejecting that community, is counter intuitive and counter productive. It’s similar behavior to that of the Pharisees and Sadducees. We tell people to confess their sins to Jesus and God and normally under any other circumstances welcome them. 

Yet with the LGBTQ Community, we stand at the door of the temple, do not not allow them to enter; and because of our blind rejection we sin and we ourselves do not enter.

I know this is a touchy and uncomfortable topic. I’m simply saying driving them from God by rejecting them is not the way.

My wife babysat for a gay lady for years. We became friends. There was a bridge we could never cross and that was acceptance and condoning of her lifestyle. We accepted her not her sin.

There is a militant type of gay activism  that is bent on forcing acceptance that you are not recognizing . If a Christian's conscience will not permit them to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage they will sue and try to drive them out of business. If Drew Brees makes a video about bringing a bible to school and it is sponsored by a Christian organization that believes what the bible teaches about gay marriage and homosexuality then he belongs to a hate group and should be punished. Chick fil A must be boycotted. A CEO must be driven from office for supporting traditional marriage.This is the battle I am speaking of and I will take the position of Joshua .."If it seems evil for you  to serve the Lord choose this day whom you will serve but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord". 

The saying that we are not to judge is heard all the time today yet we absolutely are told to judge. Jesus warned us however many times we don't have all the facts so be cautious in judging. The word of God itself judges us. When Jesus forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery remember he never condoned or accepted her sin and told her to "go and sin no more".   

No churches I know of keep gay people from attending. They do rightly keep them from any positions in the church as they are openly living in sin. The problem is not Christians standing at the door keeping out gays the problem today are militant gays that want to see bible believing Christians punished for believing what the bible teaches about traditional marriage and homosexuality. 

@oldbrownsfan said:

What the LGBT crowd is demanding is approval and acceptance and that will never happen with Christians who believes what the bible teaches. What we are seeing with Drew Brees is not unusual but we are seeing it all across the country. What the LGBT crowd are clearly demanding is acceptance and approval or else you will be targeted and punished.  It is not enough they want to be left alone to do as they wish but they are demanding everyone approve of their behavior or else. In Drew Brees's case they would likely go after sponsors and endorsements. With others it could be lawsuits (Christians who refuse to make gay wedding cakes), public shaming and attempts to get people fired for having biblical beliefs that condemn homosexual behavior and not condone it. 

I understand what they want, approval shouldn’t happen because it’s contrary to our beliefs. However accepting them isn’t too much of a stretch. Acceptance as followers of Christ or (potential) followers of Christ. We are to hate the sin and not the person. Teach them the story of Jesus Christ and share our personal journey with him all in effort to lead them to Christ. The rest is between them and God.

Rejecting that community, is counter intuitive and counter productive. It’s similar behavior to that of the Pharisees and Sadducees. We tell people to confess their sins to Jesus and God and normally under any other circumstances welcome them. 

Yet with the LGBTQ Community, we stand at the door of the temple, do not not allow them to enter; and because of our blind rejection we sin and we ourselves do not enter.

I know this is a touchy and uncomfortable topic. I’m simply saying driving them from God by rejecting them is not the way.

@marcus said:

Trouble is, the problem isn’t the ministers (in most cases) it’s the congregation. Without the congregation, it very difficult for a ministry to be successful.

What the LGBT crowd is demanding is approval and acceptance and that will never happen with Christians who believes what the bible teaches. What we are seeing with Drew Brees is not unusual but we are seeing it all across the country. What the LGBT crowd are clearly demanding is acceptance and approval or else you will be targeted and punished.  It is not enough they want to be left alone to do as they wish but they are demanding everyone approve of their behavior or else. In Drew Brees's case they would likely go after sponsors and endorsements. With others it could be lawsuits (Christians who refuse to make gay wedding cakes), public shaming and attempts to get people fired for having biblical beliefs that condemn homosexual behavior and not condone it. 

@oldbrownsfan said:

I know too many good ministers who take a Christ like approach but it gets them nowhere with the LGBTQ crowd. Anyone who takes the biblical view of traditional marriage and believes what the bible teaches that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle will get targeted

Trouble is, the problem isn’t the ministers (in most cases) it’s the congregation. Without the congregation, it very difficult for a ministry to be successful.

@marcus said:

As much as I agree with you. I feel that some of us, the so called “faithful” have missed the mark when it comes to certain topics. We often take a less than Christlike approach and that hurts us too. In a way, we make our battles hard to fight because we try to counter worldliness with worldly responses. Sometimes finesse beats blunt force trauma (figuratively speaking of course).

I know too many good ministers who take a Christ like approach but it gets them nowhere with the LGBTQ crowd. Anyone who takes the biblical view of traditional marriage and believes what the bible teaches that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle will get targeted

@oldbrownsfan said:

The battle lines are being drawn right now in Christianity. There is a form (deception)  of Christianity that is acceptable on the left and biblical Christianity that isn't. The problem in this case is the bible condemns homosexuality as a sin but if a Christian believes that or is part of an organization that believes that then the left is going to come after them to shut them down. Drew Brees posted the video  for a bible believing organization called Focus on the Family that does believe the bible and that puts them in the cross hairs of the militant left.

https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2013/12/24/the-gaystapo-and-the-delegitimization-of-religion-and-logic/

https://www.crossmap.com/blogs/gaystapo-the-tolerance-in-homosexual-activists-is-so-intolerable.html

https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2015/07/06/beware_of_the_gaystapo.html

As much as I agree with you. I feel that some of us, the so called “faithful” have missed the mark when it comes to certain topics. We often take a less than Christlike approach and that hurts us too. In a way, we make our battles hard to fight because we try to counter worldliness with worldly responses. Sometimes finesse beats blunt force trauma (figuratively speaking of course).

@marcus said:

I don’t see a thing wrong with this. He’s just reinforcing a staple of the Christian faith. Sharing your journey as a follower of Christ is what we are supposed to be doing. 

The battle lines are being drawn right now in Christianity. There is a form (deception)  of Christianity that is acceptable on the left and biblical Christianity that isn't. The problem in this case is the bible condemns homosexuality as a sin but if a Christian believes that or is part of an organization that believes that then the left is going to come after them to shut them down. Drew Brees posted the video  for a bible believing organization called Focus on the Family that does believe the bible and that puts them in the cross hairs of the militant left.

https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2013/12/24/the-gaystapo-and-the-delegitimization-of-religion-and-logic/

https://www.crossmap.com/blogs/gaystapo-the-tolerance-in-homosexual-activists-is-so-intolerable.html

https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2015/07/06/beware_of_the_gaystapo.html

@oldbrownsfan said:

The 'Cancel Culture' Targets Drew Brees After Discovering the QB's Association with Focus on the Family

"To sum up, one of the NFL's most admired ambassadors of goodwill and philanthropy is being attacked for his religious views. To be clear, the religious views that he's being attacked over aren't even what he expressed in the video. Even if it were, though, the fact that Christians are no longer allowed to hold to Christian beliefs is frightening.

Drew Brees' job is safe. There is less than a zero chance that the New Orleans Saints will take any action over this. However, the boldness with which he is being attacked is telling. If a man who is almost universally admired can suddenly find himself facing the online guillotine of the SJW mob, it won't be long before Christians all over this country find themselves being asked to renounce their faith or face consequences like public shaming and losing their job."

https://pjmedia.com/faith/the-cancel-culture-targets-drew-brees-after-discovering-the-qbs-association-with-focus-on-the-family/

I don’t see a thing wrong with this. He’s just reinforcing a staple of the Christian faith. Sharing your journey as a follower of Christ is what we are supposed to be doing.