@vegasdogg said:

What I don't get is what is the sense of sitting out games and getting fined if the point you are trying to make is you want more money? I understand that you want to show them your serious and your teammate understand why you are doing it, but sitting out only hurts the team and teammates. I hope it doesn't come to that.

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

True and I am in his corner. But lets admit his handlers are screwing this one up pretty bad so far. He isn't coming to camp, then he is but won't play in the games? He gets fined an awful lot of money to prove a point. The Browns are just as bad in thier dealings with him, but then again they don't say much do they?

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

Bottom line is the man took $2 million up front and signed the contract which he said was for the security of his family. He never completed his rookie contract and was complaining about outplaying that contract.

Doesn't the $2 million up front account for anything? He signed a contract and hasn't worked off his bonus yet. Take his bonus and the two years salary and tell me he has outperformed the contract in just two years as a special teamer. I'd be willing to talk if he had worked through 4 years of a 6 year contract but only 2 years of a 6 year contract doesn't add up since he took the money up front.

There comes a point in time where he needs to just shut up and play.

and I would agree 100%...if the Browns did not already make their intentions to INCREASE HIS ROLE.

I don't know about you...but if I was told I was going to be responsible for more stuff...I would be asking for a raise too (despite originally agreeing to a rate of pay and any signing bonus).

If he were just going to be a ST...I would say stick it. But that is not the plan...so it is up for debate (and negotiation).

Also...if NFL contracts were guaranteed (like baseball and basketball), I would say stick it...but they are not...so again...I have no problem with this as increased playing time also means increased risk of career ending injury.

2 sides to every story.

Does Josh deserve more?

Probably.

But I don't see why he doesn't play one season under the new staff, prove his WORTH to them and THEN ask for more money.

Bottom line is the man took $2 million up front and signed the contract which he said was for the security of his family. He never completed his rookie contract and was complaining about outplaying that contract.

Doesn't the $2 million up front account for anything? He signed a contract and hasn't worked off his bonus yet. Take his bonus and the two years salary and tell me he has outperformed the contract in just two years as a special teamer. I'd be willing to talk if he had worked through 4 years of a 6 year contract but only 2 years of a 6 year contract doesn't add up since he took the money up front.

There comes a point in time where he needs to just shut up and play.

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

A: they aren't open

B: they make the wrong cut

they are in bad position

they made a bad read

So, while it is on the QB as well...the WR needs to take some of the credit/blame.

Just ask Lummy...he'll tell you all about how it was the Browns receivers that are to blame for every single incompletion last year....

LOL....unless his QB is someone that is now playing elsewhere, or a bench player.

@nebbrownsfan said:

QB's often throw the ball away when throwing to a target when:

A: they aren't open

B: they make the wrong cut

they are in bad position

they made a bad read

So, while it is on the QB as well...the WR needs to take some of the credit/blame.

Just ask Lummy...he'll tell you all about how it was the Browns receivers that are to blame for every single incompletion last year....

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

in 2007, Cribbs had over a 30 yard average on kick returns....Hester had a 21.7...in fact, Hester's BEST kick return year was in 2006 (his first year) and that was only 26.4 (just .1 higher than Cribbs career average).

Where Hester did and has always made his mark was as a PUNT RETURNER....and last year he dropped to a very mediocre 6.2 per return even in that.

By the way, Hester had 51 receptions last year...but was thrown to 91 times. Not exactly a great percentage.

Why is that on Hester, unless you're trying to say he had 40 drops....that's more a reflection of the QB and really plays no part in this debate, eh?

@vegasdogg said:

as I said in my post...as PUNT RETURNER, in '06 an '07 he was a beast....but even that curtailed in '08. Meanwhile, Cribbs expanded his role and showed little if any drop in any of his other stats.

Now, was Cribbs utilized as much as Hester?

in '08 Hester had 91 passes thrown to him for 51 catches and 665 yds, and 6 carries for 61 yards...he had only 31 kick returns for 679 yds and 32 punt returns for 198 yds and 2 tackles

Cribbs only had 2 catches for 18yds and 29 carries for 167 yards....but he also had 44 kick returns for 1,110 and 28 punt returns for 228, not to mention 19 solo tackles and 4 assists on ST.

Offensive Yards:

Hester 726

Cribbs 185

Return Yards:

Hester 877

Cribbs 1338

Total Yards:

Hester 1603

Cribbs 1523

Considering Hester had about 60 additional offensive plays over Cribbs...I guess a difference of 80 yards isn't too bad. Now, if the Browns are serious about utilizing Cribbs more on offense...then chances are he is going to be making Hester's numbers look anemic...and in that case it is a no brainer to give him a raise.

Further, it has already been mentioned that Cribbs is NOT looking for Hester money...just an increase.

So, not sure what the issue is.

As for making a big deal (stooler fan) about a ST player....when a guy like cribbs gives you a 75% chance of getting AT LEAST 20 yards per kickoff...and OVER a 10% shot of a 40 yard return every time he touches the ball on kickoffs...he is a momentum breaker for opposing teams. They score...and we are right in business...IMMEDIATELY. THAT is why we are making a big deal about him.

@vegasdogg said:

I was thinking the same thing...Hester brought more back for TD's then HOWEVER I think the pay was based on STARTING WIDE RECEIVER which, sort of, makes this a moot point regarding Special Teams/Pay. He's NOT a starting Wide Receiver by a long shot IMO.

@lcdawgfan13 said:

What is your logic behind backing Hester so much?

sometimes, its just easier to ignore those that assume too much. the stats are laughable at best....

josh has one completion for 8 yards....does that mean he's a viable QB?

40 rush attempts? i guess he really can play RB?

might as well assume he can play defense too since he was a QB.....knows what defenses do, right?

damn....thats quite the job he has.....jack of all trades, master of none.

he probably does deserve a raise.....lets pay him based on what we think he can do...rather than what he actually does. great idea.

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

.

Come on now I wasn't talking KR. Back in 2006 or 2007 it seemed every week that guy was taking one back to the house on Sportscenter.

@vegasdogg said:

Cribbs does deserve a raise, but I would have liked for both sides to at least talk. Are the Browns telling him to f*ck off or something? Sounds like it, and I don't think Cribbs is winning the battle here.

check your stats there guy...

in 2007, Cribbs had over a 30 yard average on kick returns....Hester had a 21.7...in fact, Hester's BEST kick return year was in 2006 (his first year) and that was only 26.4 (just .1 higher than Cribbs career average).

Where Hester did and has always made his mark was as a PUNT RETURNER....and last year he dropped to a very mediocre 6.2 per return even in that.

By the way, Hester had 51 receptions last year...but was thrown to 91 times. Not exactly a great percentage.

if JC is this big a part of who the browns are and can generate this amount of hype about the possiblity of holding out then i think it speaks volumes about the lack of talent on in the browns organization. have the coaches play hardball and put him in his place (wich, by the way, is most definately NOT safety).

god, you would think this guy was a probowl WR/RB with both 1700yrds recieving and 2300yrds rushing every year.

i even heard someone say to use him to clear out LB's as a fullback for your run game.

lol

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

Debatable back in 2007 when Hester was off the freaking charts, but now you may be right. Fact is though, the Bears overpaid for Hester and now they have to play him @ WR, which is stupid since it waters down his impact on returns.

Cribbs does deserve a raise, but I would have liked for both sides to at least talk. Are the Browns telling him to f*ck off or something? Sounds like it, and I don't think Cribbs is winning the battle here.

Don't get me wrong...I love Cribbs.

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

JC: 16 for 153

DH: 71 for 964

Rushing:

JC: 40 for 239, 6.0 y/c

DH: 13 for 51, 3.9 y/c

Passing:

JC: 1 of 5, 8 yds

DH: n/a

Kick Return:

JC: 209 for 5507, 26.3 average, 5 TD's, 147 20+, 22 40+

DH: 94 for 2141, 22.8 average, 4 TD's, 52 20+, 6 40+

Punt Return:

JC: 65 for 689, 10.6 average, 1 TD, 8 20+, 2 40+

DH: 121 for 1449, 12.0 average, 7 TD, 25 20+, 8 40+

Tackles:

JC: 59 solo, 11 assist

DH: 13 solo

by my count, that is 4-2, Joshua Cribbs makes a bigger impact on games.

I knew someone else on here is smart enough to see it the same way I do!

@choco said:

Receptions:

JC: 16 for 153

DH: 71 for 964

Rushing:

JC: 40 for 239, 6.0 y/c

DH: 13 for 51, 3.9 y/c

Passing:

JC: 1 of 5, 8 yds

DH: n/a

Kick Return:

JC: 209 for 5507, 26.3 average, 5 TD's, 147 20+, 22 40+

DH: 94 for 2141, 22.8 average, 4 TD's, 52 20+, 6 40+

Punt Return:

JC: 65 for 689, 10.6 average, 1 TD, 8 20+, 2 40+

DH: 121 for 1449, 12.0 average, 7 TD, 25 20+, 8 40+

Tackles:

JC: 59 solo, 11 assist

DH: 13 solo

by my count, that is 4-2, Joshua Cribbs makes a bigger impact on games.

@choco said:

You might want to actually look at stats and watch a few games then!

What is your logic behind backing Hester so much? Can you honestly look at the facts and tell me that Hester truly deserves that much more money than Cribbs? I have shown stats and backed up my opinion. What is the base of your argument? Or are you just that infatuated with Hester? He must have done very well for you in your fantasy league at some point?! Or Cribbs killed you while racking up points for someone else?! I am not going to say that Cribbs or Hester is the best return man ever or that either one of them really, truly deserve Hester's contract. But...I will say that there is not much of a difference between the two either way. They both should be getting about the same pay. The biggest difference is that the Bears were willing to grossly overpay Hester while the Browns are grossly underpaying Cribbs!

@lcdawgfan13 said:

i made it this far...then you screwed the pooch. the rest is probly hogwash.

@choco said:

how much do you think a returner/gunner is worth?

You are correct. He's not Devin Hester. He does a lot more than Hester! Look at their return numbers...both before and after Hester's big contract. Cribbs' numbers were better. All the while, Cribbs was establishing himself as a force to be reckoned with on the coverage team as well, while Hester did nothing else. Now, Hester has finally become a decent WR, but his return numbers have dropped off. Cribbs has continued expand his role. He has roles at QB, RB, WR, KR, PR, Gunner, and now their talking Safety.

Last season, both of them played in 15 games. Hester had 1603 all purpose yards and scored 3 TD's...all receiving. Cribbs had 1531 yards and also scored 3 TD's...1 receiving, 1 rushing, and 1 kick return. Hester fumbled the ball 5 times with 2 lost. He did recover 2 fumbles...his own. And he had a whopping 2 tackles (both solo) for the season. Cribbs fumbled the ball...oh wait...he had ZERO fumbles last season and recovered one fumble while making 23 tackles...19 of those being solo.

Once again, I ask...Who is really overall more valuable to their team? I could go back and do 2007's numbers, but that would make the Bears look rediculous for giving him that kind of contract while Cribbs is making pennies in comparison while doing more.

how much do you think a returner/gunner is worth?

@thomasw said:

This is the classic example of players gouging a team when the team is a horrible spot. We only won FOUR games last year. Cribbs, you don't like it in Cleveland? You don't want to own up to the contract YOU SIGNED? If he holds out, I think that reflects the type of character, and importantly the culture we don't want on this team. Let's bring in some players who want to be here.

Just my .02.

If he honestly didn't want to be here, he wouldn't report to camp. He wants to be here. He wants to play football here. He just wants, and deserves I might add, to be paid equal to what others like him in the league are making...example...Devin Hester. He has been the biggest difference maker on this team for the last 2 years. Why should he not ask for more money? He is, by league standards, underpaid. (I personally think that all athletes are overpaid, but I am arguing this point based on the going rates in the NFL.) Why is it that we all want players to take a pay cut or to renegotiate their contract when it would benefit the team...or the team can just cut the player and rip up his contract, but when a player, like Cribbs, feels that he is underpaid and wants a new or adjusted contract, we all think it is terrible?