@flugel said:

We sent Zeitler packing and Baker felt the difference in comfort particularly in the short passing game.  We also had a dual purpose TE that was very helpful blocking in short yardage that we let go (Fells).  While Higgins didn't have big numbers per say, he came up big a lot to extend drives and he hasn't been available much as well as how often Callaway was unavailable to build on last year's chem/continuity.  We're still putting strangers out there like Hodge, who impressed me but it's not like auto chem comes easy.  Whatever we had going for a QB that took over an 0-16 team that also started out winless and gave Baker a 14-0 deficit the night he got his first game action - something changed drastically for the better and it was the QB position.  We won the first game he appeared and it didn't take any of us very long to how quickly, decisively and accurately he got rid of the ball through his rookie setting TD pass season in spite of only 13 starts.  look at everything that changed except for Jarvis.  Baker has already had 3 different OCs at 23 starts olds.  Not good!  I thought our 2018 OL coach did a pretty decent job considering the challenge of replacing Joe Thomas at LT and he's gone as well as Zampese.  IMO, when you're really showing epic progress, the worst thing you can do is change as much continuity as this FO changed on it's QB who was only 13 starts old heading into 2019.   They've removed a lot of the things that helped Baker for a lot of things that haven't very much just yet. 

Just a few thoughts....

Great points, the loss of Zeitler has been really understated. The guys at Surviving the Season Podcast were the first to point out that successful teams with shorter QBs like Wilson and Brees have elite guards to maintain the throwing lanes that are crucial to their success. Dorsey created an unnecessary hole by releasing Nassib, trading Ogbah then tried to fix it by trading Zeitler for Vernon who's production is almost identical to those two this season. Don't get me started on Fells and Charles loss this season. Dorsey is increasingly looking like a scout who can find talent but not necessarily build a team. Back to Baker: his last two games have been encouraging and maybe it just took him this long to familiarize himself with the playbook. OBJ is still being wasted this season though. This offense has to catapult itself to top 10 in the last 6 games to have the slightest chance of making the playoffs.

@poeticg said:

Baker's guy Njoku should be back this week. 

OBJ, Landry, Higgins, Njoku, Chubb and Hunt are six effective weapons for a dangerous QB to have in his arsenal. 

Indeed....yet why then has the offense sputtered so much,  especially in the red zone? 

Is it just that our OL is highly deficient?   (I think part of it)

Is it that the playcalling and schemes are highly deficient?  (I think part of it)

Is it just that the QB has not been efficient and has missed open receivers?  (I think part of it)

S

@tiamat63 said:

So I had a lovely additional tab open with youtube links and about a paragraph already typed up before I left this morning.  Looks like my computer locked up because I reset and chrome didn't save shit.   Apologies for the condensed response because this was going to be FAR more detailed at first.   

Your crotchety old buddy Flugel (and former cyber sparring partner) says don't let it happen again!  Do you hear me?  

Just kidding!  Well done! You bring up a lot of good points backed with examples. That's awesome for 2 reasons.  1) The length of space required for clarification and use of examples terrifies new millennials; and 2) It shows me/others why you feel a certain way.

I feel like I've seen a completely different Baker than I saw in 2018.  I forget the percentages of our red zone scoring last year vrs that of this year in spite of the issues at kicker in 2018; but we were much better in 2018. Last year, Baker's pre-snap intellect had him getting the ball out quicker and with more accuracy to the extent many of us were posting how good that made the pass pro look.  I don't remember seeing a little beer belly on Baker last year either; but he closed the summer with bachelor parties, wedding, honey moon and chugging beers at Tribe games, which ultimately changed how often he has attempted to scoot out of the pocket even when he's had some ideal gimmes to do so at times.

Anyway, here's some things I think that has impacted him:

1. Position Coach Change.  The experienced QB Coach he had last year had him on his pre-snap keys and pushed the fundamentals and mechanics more than I've seen this year (ie; throwing during a backward hop).  If 1 more person tells him he's the next Brett Favre - I'm gonna hire someone to remind him he needs to be the next Drew Brees (who played bad enough in his 3rd NFL season for SD to draft a QB 1st overall). Believe it or not, hiding the football in playaction is a doable if it becomes a fundamental that gets repeated every day in practice. That said, this era doesn't wait that long so the pre-snap reads, weekly film study, and mechanics are of the utmost importance.  I heard Bruce Arians say that taking an avoidable sack in pocket is less forgivable than an INT which is consistent with his "No risk it - no biscuit" mentality.  Baker has taken too many of these this year.  Arians also said this also has a tendency to lead to QBs fumbling the ball away which we've seen from Baker more than we wanted to.

2. Tight End & Red Zone Dynamics.  Last year, DeShaun Watson struggled when injuries depleted his WRs not named D-Hop.  There was no TE presence or big time help.  This year he has a TE that leads all TEs in scoring while his other TEs are pretty helpful as well. He doesn't have to overwork DHop, which clobbers my Fantasy Football team appropriately named Drink Beer.  Also keep in mind, we have a 1st round TE that could X-factor easier coverages on teammates or at least threaten an ability to score more frequently with our TE. Right now, we don't even scare a cub scout troop with our TEs.  And not for nothing, what would be so wrong with moving Chubb up closer to QB so we can just wedge/down block these 1 yard gimmes that were turning into 2 yard losses in spite of Chubb ranking 2nd in the NFL for yards after contact (which has prolly decreased in the last few weeks).  This shouldn't be nearly as impossible as our offensive coaches have made it.  Once we start tapping these 2 dynamics better when Njoku returns, it could invite better play-action IF our QB Coach has Baker sharpen the playaction skills.

3. Record Setting Rookie Season Means Something. The challenge of our GM and coaching staff is this.  Understand the importance of chemistry and continuity in this game and why the lack of it has haunted this franchise since 99.  Dating all the way back to when Drew Brees took a favored Saints team to face a 7-9 Seahawks team QBed by David Whitehurst in the playoffs. A formula of push the pocket into intimate space of Bree's in a 3 step drop, and you remove the eliteness of Brees while Seattle upset the heavily favored Saints.  Guess New Orleans has tried to be strong at since?  OG. When Pro Bowl OG Andrus Peat got injured last week the Saints got overwhelmed by a strong push up the middle (coincidentally, I think ATL's HC and DC was the DC for Seattle in that playoff game I alluded to so he remembered how to beat Drew Brees). We sent Zeitler packing and Baker felt the difference in comfort particularly in the short passing game.  We also had a dual purpose TE that was very helpful blocking in short yardage that we let go (Fells).  While Higgins didn't have big numbers per say, he came up big a lot to extend drives and he hasn't been available much as well as how often Callaway was unavailable to build on last year's chem/continuity.  We're still putting strangers out there like Hodge, who impressed me but it's not like auto chem comes easy.  Whatever we had going for a QB that took over an 0-16 team that also started out winless and gave Baker a 14-0 deficit the night he got his first game action - something changed drastically for the better and it was the QB position.  We won the first game he appeared and it didn't take any of us very long to how quickly, decisively and accurately he got rid of the ball through his rookie setting TD pass season in spite of only 13 starts.  look at everything that changed except for Jarvis.  Baker has already had 3 different OCs at 23 starts olds.  Not good!  I thought our 2018 OL coach did a pretty decent job considering the challenge of replacing Joe Thomas at LT and he's gone as well as Zampese.  IMO, when you're really showing epic progress, the worst thing you can do is change as much continuity as this FO changed on it's QB who was only 13 starts old heading into 2019.   They've removed a lot of the things that helped Baker for a lot of things that haven't helped him very much just yet. 

Just a few thoughts....

@dutch-oven said:

Here's the rub though.... This "improving" offense still can't score points. 

And with the defense in the shape it is in, that is going to be very important. Scoring 20 points a game is not going to cut it. 

To that effect, ball control, minimizing clock, avoiding turnovers and working to sustain drives can help should the point crunch become extended.     Gives the defense time to regroup and rest as well.   

I'm not pleased with a 21 point game despite being +3 or +4 in turnover differential.    But given that it was against a very good Pittsburgh defense whose offense can't give them point support, I'll wait to see further results before I establish a mindset re: performance on that side of the ball. 

Moving forward if this offense stays on the + side of the turnover margin and puts up a median of 27 a game?  Yeah... I'm good with that.  

@dutch-oven said:

Here's the rub though.... This "improving" offense still can't score points. 

And with the defense in the shape it is in, that is going to be very important. Scoring 20 points a game is not going to cut it. 

Yeah, I think you're MOSTLY right. Here's the one caveat....we've literally been playing top 5 defenses for what seems like the past 5 weeks. The teams we played haven't given up that many points to basically anyone, so while we definitely haven't been CLICKING, it's also not TOO damning to see us struggle to capitalize on our opportunities. 

That's what makes this Dolphins game so vital for our offense. We're FINALLY playing a team that's not a defensive juggernaut. Miami ranks 19th against the pass, and like 30th against the rush (per CBS app). That's a stark contrast to the other teams we played, so if we're REALLY taking steps forward, we'll be able to tell next Sunday. 

Edit:  One thing that bothered me at the end of the game was Baker's last TD pass. We were in a situation where a FG makes the game a two score lead, and that would be virtually insurmountable in a game where Rudolph was struggling so hard. Baker rifled a contested ball to a rookie who really wasn't open. It was a chance we didn't need to take. The WORST part was Hodge was WIDE OPEN across the middle in the same exact sight line. I don't know how he didn't see him. Would've been a much safer and easier toss. 

And with the defense in the shape it is in, that is going to be very important. Scoring 20 points a game is not going to cut it. 

OBJ, Landry, Higgins, Njoku, Chubb and Hunt are six effective weapons for a dangerous QB to have in his arsenal. 

Watch the OBJ & Hodge bombs? even the big gainer that Landry catches in 2nd at 11:37..They all had the same things in common.. Bakers front foot is buried on the ground in the pocket..Bake leads them all to the ball to catching it..

@dutch-oven said:

And how many folks on here thought it meant nothing too? 

I was one of those, thinking his working with Baker in LA was good enough.........I was WRONG.

Mike

@canton-mike said:

Makes a case for players actually showing up for OTAs etc, doesn't it? Let's hope OBJ realizes that.

Mike

And how many folks on here thought it meant nothing too? 

@dutch-oven said:

Baker is definitely trending upward, his play Thursday night was exactly what the Browns needed. The only way Pittsburgh was going to win was if the Browns turned the ball over.

That said, Baker and OBJ have zero chemistry. It isn't getting better as the season goes.

Makes a case for players actually showing up for OTAs etc, doesn't it? Let's hope OBJ realizes that.

Mike

That said, Baker and OBJ have zero chemistry. It isn't getting better as the season goes.

@onkyoreceiver said:

And the last two games Baker did this against two of the better defenses in the NFL - so nobody can say that he did it against soft opponents.  Definitely encouraging .

That is such a terrific point. Let's not forget, this Steelers defense was absolutely murdering teams with sacks and turnovers. I know many of us were starting to get pretty nervous after we were up 14-7 for what felt like forever. We basically put the game in our defense's hands and let them do their thing. When we absolutely had to get that last score, we finally did in dramatic fashion. What a catch by the rookie TE, and what a throw (risky for my blood, but whatever, lol). 

Steelers were living on turnovers and defensive touchdowns. Heck, just the other week or so they were down 14 to the Dolphins I think, and what happened? I'm pretty sure they got a defensive TD and that helped seal it. We cut off their lifeline by not turning it over and that made all the difference. 

I have a feeling we might see an offensive explosion soon. OBJ and Hunt might be fantasy studs next week...just a hunch. 

Edit:  I randomly looked up some of the defensive stats from teams like the Bills, Broncos, and Steelers, and it's borderline incredible that we were able to do some of the things we did. Now, we were FAR from great mind you, but some of these defenses made fools of some pretty decent teams. We got the Fins coming up, and according to CBS Sports they're absolutely miserable defensively. 19th against the pass, but 31st against the run. This Dolphins team can still beat us if we crap down our leg, but if we bring the intensity there's little reason why we can't dominate this game. 

@crunchy said:

So encouraging! And based on the 'eye test' he's looking much better as well. Extending the play multiple times last night, feeling the pocket, directing receivers when he rolls out, being decisive, just making smart decisions consistently. 

And once again, this is against another top ten pass defense. And one that had been creating a TON of turnovers. 

For sure. I said all along Baker is a huge, huge momentum guy. I can see him feasting next week.

@jrb12711 said:

For reference, last three games

62.5% completion, 6 total TDS, no turnovers. Last two game QBR were 74 and 73, respectively (which is where the leaders in the NFL are at typically, or close).

Definitely encouraging.

So encouraging! And based on the 'eye test' he's looking much better as well. Extending the play multiple times last night, feeling the pocket, directing receivers when he rolls out, being decisive, just making smart decisions consistently. 

And once again, this is against another top ten pass defense. And one that had been creating a TON of turnovers. 

62.5% completion, 6 total TDS, no turnovers. Last two game QBR were 74 and 73, respectively (which is where the leaders in the NFL are at typically, or close).

Definitely encouraging.

@hx214 said:

Bake looked pretty sharp tonight. Still not on the same page with OBJ. I thought Hodges was going to have a huge night but went silent after the second catch.

Still gotta question some of his reads. Missed Hunt open in the flats on a few big plays, and even though it was a HELL of a throw to the new TE in the back of the Endzone to make it 21-7.... I gotta question why you throw that kinda ball on 3rd down that close the the goal post when you can be smart and not put the ball in harms way and take the points to go up by two scores..... but.... I’d rather see those kinda mistakes than physical ineptitude that can’t be improved on.  (Serious though if you missed that throw, rewind and watch the angle from the sideline.... Bake wizzed that thing! It just STUCK in the TE’s arms... that’s the throw we needed at the end of the Rams game...) 

The defense is gonna be weakened without its star DE now.  Gonna have to crank up the heat and put a lot of points on the board. Let’s do it.

LOL! I feel the same way. That throw reminded me of the movie "Necessary Roughness" when the WR Featherstone couldn't catch anything so the QB (Scott Bakula) rifles the ball as hard as possible so it gets stuck in Featherstone's facemask, LOL. 

I loved seeing Carlson go up and make that play for Baker. I thought he was going to POP the football he was squeezing it so hard, haha. But I actually agree with you. The throw itself was a risk he didn't need to take. What if the ball hits the defender's helmet and pops straight up to get picked? Why take the risk? In a game where the Steelers couldn't do ANYTHING, a 10 point lead seems like 50, right? 

But, whatever. Our rookie TE somehow caught it and effectively ended the game. It was a wild play and I loved seeing how the team reacted. Demetrius Harris was so jacked for Carlson...loved seeing it. 

Gotta get to work, but lots more to discuss. Another multiple TD game for Baker and no turnovers. That'll do! 

A return to fundamentals is nice to see.  If Baker hovers around 61-62% comp, avoids turnovers and we run effectively, then 8 wins is in this teams grasp. 

@hx214 said:

Bake looked pretty sharp tonight. Still not on the same page with OBJ. I thought Hodges was going to have a huge night but went silent after the second catch.

Still gotta question some of his reads. Missed Hunt open in the flats on a few big plays, and even though it was a HELL of a throw to the new TE in the back of the Endzone to make it 21-7.... I gotta question why you throw that kinda ball on 3rd down that close the the goal post when you can be smart and not put the ball in harms way and take the points to go up by two scores..... but.... I’d rather see those kinda mistakes than physical ineptitude that can’t be improved on.  (Serious though if you missed that throw, rewind and watch the angle from the sideline.... Bake wizzed that thing! It just STUCK in the TE’s arms... that’s the throw we needed at the end of the Rams game...) 

The defense is gonna be weakened without its star DE now.  Gonna have to crank up the heat and put a lot of points on the board. Let’s do it.

Not saying you feel this way, but looking back on that throw I'm fine with it. You see a defender clearly with his back turned it's very likely incomplete, at best caught or DPI.

Best comment I saw about it was that if Russell Wilson makes that throw people would be chanting MVP.

@hx214 said:

Bake looked pretty sharp tonight. Still not on the same page with OBJ. I thought Hodges was going to have a huge night but went silent after the second catch.

Still gotta question some of his reads. Missed Hunt open in the flats on a few big plays, and even though it was a HELL of a throw to the new TE in the back of the Endzone to make it 21-7.... I gotta question why you throw that kinda ball on 3rd down that close the the goal post when you can be smart and not put the ball in harms way and take the points to go up by two scores..... but.... I’d rather see those kinda mistakes than physical ineptitude that can’t be improved on.  (Serious though if you missed that throw, rewind and watch the angle from the sideline.... Bake wizzed that thing! It just STUCK in the TE’s arms... that’s the throw we needed at the end of the Rams game...) 

The defense is gonna be weakened without its star DE now.  Gonna have to crank up the heat and put a lot of points on the board. Let’s do it.

Still poor Scheme and poor playcalling by the coaches