@calfoxwc said:

Exactly. Garrett didn't want that penalty for squishing the squealer qb, so he went out of his way to have him land on HIM.

and still sissy mason went on a hissy fit. An adopted sister-in -law said she heard the Browns-Squealers game was going to have a seasoned, veteran ref squad there, and some NFL officials may be there.

  Way too late- you let it get out of hand by favoring the Steelers all these years.

I have the over\under on ejections in the game at 2-1\2.    For sure the game will be very tightly officiated....  

Been reported Cal.... The Browns- Steelers get Clay Martin's crew.  Clay has 5 seasons of experience as a ref, and everyone else has at least 4 years on the job.  FWIW, lives in Oklahoma and is a HS basketball coach. Doubtless the NFL Ref job pays a lot better.  

Martin's 2019 NFL officiating crew consists of umpire Fred Bryan, down judge Jerod Phillips, line judge Gary Arthur, field judge Nate Jones, side judge Greg Gautreaux, back judge Greg Wilson, replay official Tom Sifferman, and replay assistant Gavin Anderson.

OTOH, as usual, the Patriots get multi SB ref Tony Corriente's crew.  For future reference, there's a site Football zebras- that posts this stuff....  

@bjh2130 said:

Again i truly think Garrett was trying to avoid one of those full body weight penalties when he hit Rudolph and that's actually what started the whole fiasco. Rudolph likely felt he took him to the ground late when really Garrett was just trying to take him down without landing on him. 

Yup... Could not have laid him more gently on the ground... kind of a slo-mo take down that I'm sure seemed late and later to Rudolph... with the irritation then magnified by Mason's "performance".

@bjh2130 said:

i said something similar earlier and i was fairly certain he hadn't got a roughing the passer penalty since that jets week. 

Again i truly think Garrett was trying to avoid one of those full body weight penalties when he hit Rudolph and that's actually what started the whole fiasco. Rudolph likely felt he took him to the ground late when really Garrett was just trying to take him down without landing on him. 

Exactly. Garrett didn't want that penalty for squishing the squealer qb, so he went out of his way to have him land on HIM.

and still sissy mason went on a hissy fit. An adopted sister-in -law said she heard the Browns-Squealers game was going to have a seasoned, veteran ref squad there, and some NFL officials may be there.

  Way too late- you let it get out of hand by favoring the steelers all these years.

@tour2ma said:

Thing that I think has to be remembered is that the all MG's "roughing" penalties came in the first two weeks of the season when pass rushers were trying to figure what and where the lines were when it came to the QB.

i said something similar earlier and i was fairly certain he hadn't got a roughing the passer penalty since that jets week. 

Again i truly think Garrett was trying to avoid one of those full body weight penalties when he hit Rudolph and that's actually what started the whole fiasco. Rudolph likely felt he took him to the ground late when really Garrett was just trying to take him down without landing on him. 

@tour2ma said:

Thing that I think has to be remembered is that the all MG's "roughing" penalties came in the first two weeks of the season when pass rushers were trying to figure what and where the lines were when it came to the QB.

That's a very good point!

@bjh2130 said:

If it happened it was after the first one.  I watched the following 5 plays after the 2nd one that resulted in the injury and nothing was said.  The first one I only got to watch play and replay which only thing said during that was blandino saying "nothing wrong with the timing of the hit but they're going to get him for body weight on qb. It's a judgement call but supportable based on how their chests lined up." Then Booger said that was just a good hit in my day. 

Again im not arguing it is not a penalty.  It absolutely is based on the rule.  I just don't think it's dirty unless you operate under the idea all penalties are dirty plays.

I agree with a lot of your points! That said, let's apply the physics of a 270 lb DE that can run about a 4.58 sprinting with about a 15 yard head of steam to the sideline where the QB released the ball prior to the hit and pounce.   That's why that hit got him the $45 K fine. This video I attached below isn't great because it goes down field with the ball instead of zooming in on the hit. However, they do go back and show the hit focusing mostly on the leg breaking.  While you are correct in saying/thinking it's hard to stop a full head of steam.  If you are an athletic freak like Garrett is - you can hit and turn while doing so.  I've seen guys exhibit this kind of body control.  I saw someone with far less athletic ability do that to Aaron Rodgers 2-3 weeks ago so he landed on his side next to Rodgers trying to prevent a flag.  He still got flagged and that was ridiculous. 

When we played Seattle, they got 4 penalties in Wilson's go ahead drive late which I questioned a couple of those. If anything, I'm a homer that protests a lot of penalties against us.  Classic example?  Last year when Ben got outside of the pocket on 4th and goal from the 9 looking to run or throw (with the body weight of 260 lbs on a 6'6" frame) - Garrett tackled him like a ball carrier and got flagged.  This gave Pitt 4 new downs and 1st and goal from the 5 instead of the FG they would have ended up with in a game that ended tied in regulation and OT.  I definitely had a problem with the call and it cost a win over Pittsburgh IMO. 

@flugel said:

Didn't one of the commentators mention he wouldn't be surprised if there's a fine from the league after it?

If it happened it was after the first one.  I watched the following 5 plays after the 2nd one that resulted in the injury and nothing was said.  The first one I only got to watch play and replay which only thing said during that was blandino saying "nothing wrong with the timing of the hit but they're going to get him for body weight on qb. It's a judgement call but supportable based on how their chests lined up." Then Booger said that was just a good hit in my day. 

Again im not arguing it is not a penalty.  It absolutely is based on the rule.  I just don't think it's dirty unless you operate under the idea all penalties are dirty plays.

I looked it up and Garrett was fined for both hits. Here comes another example of my non-bias. Jamal Adams was also fined for his hit on Baker in that game which I don't think was a dirty play. 

Now I don't know if the nfl only fines if they feel they are dirty plays or if they fine most all roughing the passer penalties.  If the latter is the case then it's asinine and they should fine every player that gets a 15 yard penalty, but ultimately I'm ok with Garrett and Adams both getting fines if that's how they do it. However if fines are supposed to be for dirty plays I dont believe either player should have been given a fine.  

Honestly I would have assumed they only fined for dirty plays but after decastro got fined for playing peacemaker and trying to break up a fight then nothing the NFL fines for would surprise me. 

@flugel said:

You're a Cleveland fan so of course nobody thinks he should have been penalized vrs the Jets or he's played any dirty football yet.  The hit that really stood out was the 1 he ended their backup QB's season.  If ANYONE did that exact same thing to our QB in a game - trust me when I tell you all the same Cleveland fans that were telling you it wasn't dirty would be telling you it is dirty.  I promise. Didn't one of the commentators mention he wouldn't be surprised if there's a fine from the league after it? He was penalized 2-3 times that game - but that doesn't mean they were all dirty the way Refs baby QBs.  The 1 that ended the guy's season was avoidable IMO.  When they

Overall, I don't think MG is a dirty player.  I just have 2 WTF moments with him that took place on prime-time TV that can lead people to think he is dirty; especially if they haven't watched him every week since he arrived here.  I don't want people thinking this guy is the next Burfict because he isn't.  He's just gotta exercise better judgement/self-control in the 2 situations a lot of eyes saw in the 2 Night Games we're talking about.

He had 4 penalties that game (3 accepted). The 2 body weight on qb roughing, 1 accepted offside, 1 declined offside.

I personally wouldn't consider that a dirty hit no matter who was dishing out the hit and who was receiving the hit. I didn't think it was dirty when it was Anthony Barr taking out Aarom Rodgers for the year. I have absolutely no allegiance to that situation other than Rodgers was my fantasy QB that year. 

It's absolutely a penalty by rule because they changed the word AND to OR in this rule “a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw [the passer] down AND land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight.” However not all penalties are dirty. 

Again the reason Siemian got hurt was his left foot got stuck in the turf underneath him. If it were egregiously late I would call it a dirty hit.  In my mind it's still a rule adjustment period. If he were to continue to do it I would call it dirty. I dont believe he hasn't done it since that week. 

Interestingly enough the way he twisted mason and took him down lightly (didn't explode through the hit) in order to avoid the full body with penalty in the steelers game very well may have caused rudolph to react feeling it was late. 

I took another screenshot the ball is still in Siemian's hand here and Garrett has already exploded off the outside of his left foot towards Siemian 

@bjh2130 said:

You went a completely different direction though that shocked me.  I don't find Garrett's hits during the jets game dirty at all.  They weren't even late. It was only a penalty cause he wasn't able to keep his full body weight from landing on the qb which is hard to do when you're mid air diving to hit the qb. While yes it is a penalty I didn't see it as dirty or have any Ill will behind the hits 

I honestly didn't even know anyone considered those dirty.

You're a Cleveland fan so of course nobody thinks he should have been penalized vrs the Jets or he's played any dirty football yet.  The hit that really stood out was the 1 he ended their backup QB's season.  If ANYONE did that exact same thing to our QB in a game - trust me when I tell you all the same Cleveland fans that were telling you it wasn't dirty would be telling you it is dirty.  I promise. Didn't one of the commentators mention he wouldn't be surprised if there's a fine from the league after it? He was penalized 2-3 times that game - but that doesn't mean they were all dirty the way Refs baby QBs.  The 1 that ended the guy's season was avoidable IMO.  When they

Overall, I don't think MG is a dirty player.  I just have 2 WTF moments with him that took place on prime-time TV that can lead people to think he is dirty; especially if they haven't watched him every week since he arrived here.  I don't want people thinking this guy is the next Burfict because he isn't.  He's just gotta exercise better judgement/self-control in the 2 situations a lot of eyes saw in the 2 Night Games we're talking about.

@flugel said:

Second, this kind of backs both of our sides in the debate.  Even though it's not Pouncey, there's an African American Steeler pictured above with his back foot on the 10 yard line with Rudolph and Garrett about 1 yard away.  There's also another Steeler even closer at the 9 yard line. Hard to believe neither one of them couldn't hear a heated racial slur. Can you see why I didn't feel like it was an appropriate place for the N-bomb; especially if it's from a QB counting on another race at several positions within his offense? 

I absolutely can see where you are coming from and truthfully we will probably never know if he said a racial slur. I'm sold on the fact he said something racially charged but not that he definitely said the N-bomb (maybe boy with a a southern drawl or the shortened version of respon raccoon or could have been a few others). But again I can understand why you're not sold at all.

Side note those two players near Rudolph and Garrett are decastro and number 71 rt matt feiler. They are both white. 

@flugel said:

Third, you were correct in identifying the screen pass. Having said that, the blue line above is the pre-snap line of scrimmage (17 yard line on 3rd and 29). I see Pouncey attempting to hit Ogunjobi right at the 17 yard line, which means he didn't get downfield at all or very far away laterally if he's only at the hash mark engaging a DT.  I'll give your side of the debate about him not being close enough to hear the slur the slight edge on this one.  Plus, you out-researched my asss so good job by you.

Yeah I was way wrong on the fact that he got downfield. He's definitely right at the blue line of scrimmage lol.

Honestly I didn't realize how far back Mason dropped on the pass. I knew pouncey was a good ways away from where it all originated so I assumed rudolph dropped back 5 yards and pouncey ran up field 5 yards, but it was just Rudolph dropping back ten yards and pouncey dropping a couple steps at snap to sell the screen then taking those same two steps back forward 

@flugel said:

Fourth, while you make a good point about Garrett's composure OFF the field (in that incident) - for some reason backup QBs filling in for injured starters bring out another side/his inner-Suh.  For example, he got flagged 2 or 3 times in that NY Jets game for dirty/unnecessary stuff to the extent people (outside of Cleveland fans) found reasons to question if he was a dirty player.  Also to the extent the replays had nobody questioning the flags he earned.  He ended 1 harmless QB's season who was actually helping us and hurting the Jets.  Come to think of it, Rudolph was helping us more than he was helping the Steelers as well. I know we both wish the whole thing never happened.

You started going the direction I thought you would and one that I can't argue with the "OFF" field comment. I understand it takes a completely different mindset to play in a game in the national football league than the mindset he operates in during his every day life. So I could see not being able to control his reaction when in that different (nfl) mindset and a physical altercation happens versus being able to control his emotion with the fan physical altercation. 

You went a completely different direction though that shocked me.  I don't find Garrett's hits during the jets game dirty at all.  They weren't even late. It was only a penalty cause he wasn't able to keep his full body weight from landing on the qb which is hard to do when you're mid air diving to hit the qb. While yes it is a penalty I didn't see it as dirty or have any Ill will behind the hits 

I honestly didn't even know anyone considered those dirty. I know once the steeler fiasco happened people started trying to prove he is a dirty player and started citing those.  I remember people saying he needs to start playing smarter and stopping the penalties because he was getting penalized a lot but don't remember anything being said about being dirty. During the jets game I remember the announcers asking blandino or whatever "ref" on there what Garrett was supposed to do on the first one.  The ref couldn't tell them anything just that it is going to be a penalty. The one where he injured the guy the announcer made a point to show on the replay how Siemian foot got stuck in the ground underneath him.  Even if Garrett had managed to turn off him or master levitation he still would have had the same injury cause his foot was stuck in the ground and the on time hit was causing him to fall on top of it. Extra weight or not. Again I understand it's a penalty but to me it's not dirty.

Hell Clay Matthew's had like 4 of those same penalties the first two weeks and I don't recall anyone calling him dirty or trying to make the point he is now. 

@bjh2130 said:

The pass didn't make it past the line of scrimmage but the receiver did. It was like an 8 yard gain. It was a screen.  There's usually 2 or 3 that release and block down field and two that stay at the line on most screens.  The lineman that release always vary sometimes its tackle guard center sometimes center guard guard sometimes center tackle. Actually often times against a 4-3 the center typically releases on screens because they don't have a helmet on top of them.  Just because decastro was standing there doesn't mean pouncey was too.

I just rewatched the play.  Pouncey was very close to ten yards away from where they hit the ground. The second picture shows him at the 17 yard line locked up with Ogunjobi and Garrett and Rudolph go down to the ground at 7.5 yard line. He never even realized what was happening behind him until the moment in my 2nd screenshot (you can see the 3 of his jersey on the right side of the screen).  Garrett already has his helmet in hand at this point and only a couple frames from ripping it off. Pouncey is a frame or two away from starting to move back towards them still at the 17 yard line at this point. 

One reason I believe something else other than physical action happened is because Myles kept his cool when he got punched in the face by a fan asking for a picture.  Somehow though Rudolph trying to rip his helmet off sent him over the edge. That doesn't add up to me. 

Yes we can agree to disagree. It's very possible im wrong and Myles made it up but I just dont see him as the type to do that.  Thanks for being civil

First, you did a really good job showing me where you are coming from and thanks for the videos.

Second, this kind of backs both of our sides in the debate.  Even though it's not Pouncey, there's an African American Steeler pictured above with his back foot on the 10 yard line with Rudolph and Garrett about 1 yard away.  There's also another Steeler even closer at the 9 yard line. Hard to believe neither one of them couldn't hear a heated racial slur. Can you see why I didn't feel like it was an appropriate place for the N-bomb; especially if it's from a QB counting on another race at several positions within his offense? 

Third, you were correct in identifying the screen pass. Having said that, the blue line above is the pre-snap line of scrimmage (17 yard line on 3rd and 29). I see Pouncey attempting to hit Ogunjobi right at the 17 yard line, which means he didn't get downfield at all or very far away laterally if he's only at the hash mark engaging a DT.  I'll give your side of the debate about him not being close enough to hear the slur the slight edge on this one.  Plus, you out-researched my asss so good job by you.

Fourth, while you make a good point about Garrett's composure OFF the field (in that incident) - for some reason backup QBs filling in for injured starters bring out another side/his inner-Suh.  For example, he got flagged 2 or 3 times in that NY Jets game for dirty/unnecessary stuff to the extent people (outside of Cleveland fans) found reasons to question if he was a dirty player.  Also to the extent the replays had nobody questioning the flags he earned.  He ended 1 harmless QB's season who was actually helping us and hurting the Jets.  Come to think of it, Rudolph was helping us more than he was helping the Steelers as well. I know we both wish the whole thing never happened.

Let's just hope Roger Godcomplex doesn't extend this suspension into the 2020 season for any length of time...

@hoorta said:

Aw shucks, Mason is  only  a poor  third  round  draft pick.  We can't  fine him a $100k or so, and suspend  him a game.  Financial  hardship  ya know.  

The fact he only makes 38k a game and fined 50k (the largest fine that came out of the whole thing)  shows me there is more to the story than just he started it. But the public outcry would be huge if he were suspended or everything he (probably) said came out.

@flyingfooldoug said:

 That would explain a lot. 

HA!! just got this T from my sister in Toledo today ? As the biggest Garrett fan i know....on the back she had added.... Browns Garrett Ended IT

@flugel said:

Pouncey plays right next to DeCastro who wasn't downfield on a pass that never made it past the line of scrimmage.  You make it sound like Pouncey was more than 10 yards downfield, which he wasn't.  He was close enough to be 1 of 2 teammates that saw and heard what was escalating to the extent he high tailed it there long before Garrett's 1st teammate (Ogunjobi) arrived after all damages were done...  If you've played, you know you can hear stuff and especially escalating tempers after the play is dead.  No rocket science necessary.

The pass didn't make it past the line of scrimmage but the receiver did. It was like an 8 yard gain. It was a screen.  There's usually 2 or 3 that release and block down field and two that stay at the line on most screens.  The lineman that release always vary sometimes its tackle guard center sometimes center guard guard sometimes center tackle. Actually often times against a 4-3 the center typically releases on screens because they don't have a helmet on top of them.  Just because decastro was standing there doesn't mean pouncey was too.

I just rewatched the play.  Pouncey was very close to ten yards away from where they hit the ground. The second picture shows him at the 17 yard line locked up with Ogunjobi and Garrett and Rudolph go down to the ground at 7.5 yard line. He never even realized what was happening behind him until the moment in my 2nd screenshot (you can see the 3 of his jersey on the right side of the screen).  Garrett already has his helmet in hand at this point and only a couple frames from ripping it off. Pouncey is a frame or two away from starting to move back towards them still at the 17 yard line at this point. 

One reason I believe something else other than physical action happened is because Myles kept his cool when he got punched in the face by a fan asking for a picture.  Somehow though Rudolph trying to rip his helmet off sent him over the edge. That doesn't add up to me. 

Yes we can agree to disagree. It's very possible im wrong and Myles made it up but I just dont see him as the type to do that.  Thanks for being civil

@neo said:

Exactly. Pittsburgh has always been a dirty team using cheap tactics and exploiting rules. KNOW YOUR OPPONENT. A well coached team would know this. But the NFL is losing me with the inconsistency. Five games for a man that stomped on another player's face resulting in stitches, but swinging a helmet is a big no-no for Garrett with an indefinite suspension and huge fine. Not to mention all the money he is losing from game checks. Not a good look for the league. Also sounds like he got railroaded.

Wait....do we have 2 people named NEO on this board?  

@westside-steve said:

Trash Talk happens every second of the game. The more outrageous the more chance that your opponent will freak out. I think Tomlin teaches his team that knowing that the person that responds gets the flag. Simple as that. Insulting somebody's mother, girlfriend, wife, sexuality, religion or even race might piss you off.

My guess would be Rudolph actually said something but for no other reason then to draw the response. Myles shouldn't have taken the bait.

WSS

Exactly. Pittsburgh has always been a dirty team using cheap tactics and exploiting rules. KNOW YOUR OPPONENT. A well coached team would know this. But the NFL is losing me with the inconsistency. Five games for a man that stomped on another player's face resulting in stitches, but swinging a helmet is a big no-no for Garrett with an indefinite suspension and huge fine. Not to mention all the money he is losing from game checks. Not a good look for the league. Also sounds like he got railroaded.

@bjh2130 said:

Then I mistook your reasoning. "It also seems strange that a guy that has African American WRs, RBs and OL beside Pouncey would throw the N word out."  That seemed to me your argument was his lineman running backs and wide receivers are African American so he wouldn't use the term because you didn't mention anything about being near him in that particular section. Which is why I brought up riley cooper.  My mistake for not understanding what you meant. 

Why do you assume he whispered it? Again they were face to face in a stadium full of people during a play . It wouldn't have had to have been a whisper. He could have been just speaking at a regular volume.  Just because he lost his composure (if its not just his true beliefs) doesn't mean he has to be yelling it. I get that it makes your argument stronger but no where does anyone suggest he whispered it to him.  You just assume that because "pouncey wouldn't have defended him had he heard it" which I already said he could have been screaming it and pouncey wouldn't have heard as he was down field blocking on a screen play. 

No worries.  The whisper was sarcastic ball busting. 

Pouncey plays right next to DeCastro who wasn't downfield on a pass that never made it past the line of scrimmage.  You make it sound like Pouncey was more than 10 yards downfield, which he wasn't.  He was close enough to be 1 of 2 teammates that saw and heard what was escalating to the extent he high tailed it there long before Garrett's 1st teammate (Ogunjobi) arrived after all damages were done...  If you've played, you know you can hear stuff and especially escalating tempers after the play is dead.  No rocket science necessary.

Aside from that, the best way for the NFL to get an unbiased take on what was said between Garrett and Rudolph - the Referee in charge of QB safety who also positions himself nearby to the extent he could hear the exchange between Garrett and Rudolph didn't say "yeah I heard the Code Red."  Not that speculation has gotten either one of us anywhere in this debate, I'm guessing the Referee/Officials is where the investigation began and ended.

It all adds up to you but I can't get it to add up for me. I thought Garrett had enough reasons to be pissed as depicted in the video without adding in the racial slur.  Could I be wrong? Absolutely; and it certainly wouldn't be the first time.  Let's move on rather than recycling the same argument. 

... if this is the case then when will the NFL will be banning fans from wearing helmets into stadiums.

Occurred to me after reading about the 15 buses heading from ME Ohio to Pittsburgh Sunday.

Meanwhile this is just out and seems more than plausible... https://www.foxnews.com/sports/myles-garrett-racial-slur-allegation-known-browns-report

FOX Sports NFL insider Jay Glazer attempted Sunday to clarify why Garrett made the accusation at the hearing instead of going public with it after their Week 11 game when he was talking to the media.

Glazer reported that Garrett told Browns personnel that Rudolph had allegedly used a racial slur against him but ultimately he thought the allegation would have been confidential at the appeals hearing.

“I got the sense that he wasn’t going to, that he didn’t want it out publicly because it would be bad for the league,” Glazer said during FOX’s NFL pregame show. “He just thought it was going to be confidential inside that appeals process.”

Garrett chose not to comment after the game after he was asked whether there was anything that was said to set him off. After the NFL upheld his suspension, Garrett said he knew what he heard.