@go-lers said:

All you need to see is the side-by-side comparison to other franchises that started around the same time the Browns did. There is a clear correlation between number of head coaches the Browns burned through and their winning percentage vs that of the Jags/Panthers/Texans and what they've accomplished. Cleveland is seriously falling behind it's counterparts.

I realize Freddie was a mistake but constantly firing head coaches isn't the solution to the Browns problems, it IS the problem!

Say what you will but sources (

Compare franchise it started around the time the Browns did? Ok how many have won 8 Championships since 1946?

@go-lers said:

All you need to see is the side-by-side comparison to other franchises that started around the same time the Browns did. There is a clear correlation between number of head coaches the Browns burned through and their winning percentage vs that of the Jags/Panthers/Texans and what they've accomplished. Cleveland is seriously falling behind it's counterparts.

I realize Freddie was a mistake but constantly firing head coaches isn't the solution to the Browns problems, it IS the problem!

Say what you will but sources (

Couple of things that will arouse the ire of a lot of Browns fans.... 

1) From your previous post 

" Not every coach is a winner but it was clear Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel were building something. I know we're supposed to say they stunk as a general rule but longevity and their football IQ were showing promise."

In case you forgot- Crennel sucked for two years as the HC of Kansas City afterwards. He's a great defensive coordinator, but a lousy head coach.  Butch Davis never got another NFL HC gig.  

2) Screw that chart- the Browns FRANCHISE was founded in 1946. They came back as a new TEAM in 1999. 

There's a damn good reason both the Panthers and Jaguars have done better. They were given a lot more time to get their act together than the Browns were in 1999. Not only that, the expansion draft and regular draft picks they were given were FAR superior to what the Browns got. The NFL owners decided both those franchises got too good, too fast- and stuck it to the Browns. With the time constraints- Cleveland assembled a front office that was behind the 8 ball from the start. It didn't help Al Lerner died shortly after the Browns rebirth, and son Randy was more interested in his Aston Villa soccer team than he was in the Browns- and he proved to be as lousy running a soccer franchise as he was an NFL team. Enter Jimmy Haslam, with lots of money, and little experience running an NFL franchise- so little- if you remember the NFL had to hand pick his front office (Joe Banner & others) for him. So who knows if Jimmy will learn from past mistakes this time.

One thing is for certain- and it's not my opinion, it's also from anyone who knows anything- Freddie Kitchens was monumentally unqualified to be a head coach in the NFL. Too far, too fast. The players certainly didn't respect him (ditto some of the coaches, if you caught what Monken has been saying lately) and his play calling and time management thinking were so far out of they box he was given a box with his belongings and told to get out of town......  Just meant to be a puppet for John Dorsey, who also is currently out of a job for promoting Freddie, over objections of others in the front office....  

PS- there's links to some terrific articles in another thread explaining why Haslam was 100% correct in asking Dorsey to accept a demotion. He was too proud to admit his mistakes- (Kitchens being the big one, but there were others) and went home. 

All you need to see is the side-by-side comparison to other franchises that started around the same time the Browns did. There is a clear correlation between number of head coaches the Browns burned through and their winning percentage vs that of the Jags/Panthers/Texans and what they've accomplished. Cleveland is seriously falling behind it's counterparts.

I realize Freddie was a mistake but constantly firing head coaches isn't the solution to the Browns problems, it IS the problem!

Say what you will but sources (

@the-gipper said:

A few  things:

A.  Bill Belichick was not fired as the coach of the Cleveland Browns franchise.  He was fired as coach of the Baltimore Modell  (unnamed as yet)  franchise.  That is a fact.

B.   The other guys you mention,  Noll, Walsh, Johnson.....had shit for talent on the rosters they inherited...and they had a big hand in bringing the talent and devolping it during the first few years of their existence.    It was clearly evident with those guys, that despite their losing records that they knew what they were doing.    The same is not true here. It has been clearly evident that the guys we have dumped deserved to be dumped...and they were not ultimately qualified.

C. You mention the vast minority of situations.   4 coaches in the last  50 years have accomplished what you claim.    That means hundreds have not.  Building a system is great....if you have the product to build that system with.....and that product comes around very rarely. Those guys are the vast exception to the rule...NOT the norm.  Do you want the names of those  100+ other coaches that didn't do a thing? 

A. You're right about Belichick. I was only including coaches from the current franchise, 1999 to present

B. Not every coach is a winner but it was clear Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel were building something. I know we're supposed to say they stunk as a general rule but longevity and their football IQ were showing promise.

C. You say building a system is great so long as you have the product to build with but you already mentioned Noll, Walsh, and Johnson had shit to work. Nevertheless they all powered through. Coaches need to be given more of a chance to build a system for a franchise.

@the-gipper said:

Yep exactly. Tuck tail and run (not accept). Another EILOOHG trait

@tour2ma said:

... and the DE size difference was one of my main points. Wade adapts to the talent he has. He's a better DC for doing so.

The 5th DB is often filling the role of the 3rd LB. giving rise to the hybrid role in recent years. Deion Jones is a great example of the "undersized" LB's expanded role.

Whatever the player, it does not change his role in the base D significantly. It simply shifts the area where his makeup best sets up success, i.e., pass coverage vs run stopping.

Probably one of the best DCs to do it, I’d love to have him here.

I have no doubt you understand the nuances of defensive philosophies moreso than most regular posters, my gripe is more with the common  “oh god, 34 defense, we’re gonna have to get entirely new players” stance a lot of people take.

Were we to go that route, some changes would obviously occur but it’s not a full defensive reset...depending on the coordinator. 

@tour2ma said:

Then color me hung up....

Roster composition is impacted. Physical demands of the DL and OLB differ and so do the physical makeup of players.

DTs differ from NTs... DEs from DEs...

Long history under some damn good HCs. Our STs were one very disciplined unit... very few penalties even of the dreaded block n the back variety.

Makes me think the guy should get an interview.

Depends on how you want to build the front.   When you're a 1gap team that doesn't usually have that mammoth nose or every interior body is 300+ lbs as a  "classic" 34 is generally regarded.   Look no further than the Rams and Wade Phillips.

The 5th DB is often filling the role of the 3rd LB. giving rise to the hybrid role in recent years. Deion Jones is a great example of the "undersized" LB's expanded role.

Whatever the player, it does not change his role in the base D significantly. It simply shifts the area where his makeup best sets up success, i.e., pass coverage vs run stopping.

@gunz41 said:

"Probably" and "flaw in the writing"

You have just proven the point. You refuse to take responsibility. 

Here is Flugel original post

"I wouldn't mind seeing LSU's Joe Brady get some consideration with all I'm reading and hearing about how much he has helped Joe Burrow progress from last year.  Prior to that, he worked on Sean Payton's staff with Drew Brees. I'd rather see Brees as Baker's role model than Favre.  I've seen 1 throw off the backwards hop too many to like hearing the Favre resemblance.  We also need some brain cells in our coaching staff that understand we need to bury the shuffle pass once and for all. 

Back to Joe Brady, he has NFL and college experience.  Again, if I want hiring criteria to improve I'd rather see more than 2 candidates (with a gut feeling they are already leaning toward the 1 they worked with in GB). I like Mike McCarthy as a candidate; but Joe Brady's work at LSU transcended the program and the QB to the National Championship Game.  Not a bad resume when you can say I was the only one that tapped Joe Burrow's QB talent; especially when we see how much he did so..."

So please Mr. Know it all, where is the flaw in that writing? Since they are BOTH named there, and there would be very minuscule chance that Joe Burrow, the QB (who was at OSU) would have worked with Payton and Brees.

And I am STILL waiting for you to reference ONE poor opinion I have had

@tour2ma said:

Then color me hung up....

Roster composition is impacted. Physical demands of the DL and OLB differ and so do the physical makeup of players.

DTs differ from NTs... DEs from DEs...

Long history under some damn good HCs. Our STs were one very disciplined unit... very few penalties even of the dreaded block n the back variety.

Makes me think the guy should get an interview.

I get what you’re saying but that’s just not the way the NFL is anymore.

There’s still a general split between two prevailing philosophies, but it’s more accurate to define that split as 2-gap/1-gap as opposed to 34/43. 

This is for a few reasons, but mainly just because teams don’t run 7-man fronts as often. Something like 26 teams ran 50+% of their plays with 5 defensive backs on the field last year - whether that’s through an extra CB, extra safety, $lb, what have you. So to even classify their base as a 34/43 would be erroneous, their “base” alignments would be either 335 or 425. 

The other reason it’s a bit of a misnomer is exactly what you said about personnel. Generally speaking, people hear 34 and think “large DL, big run stuffing NT, pass rush from the OLBs”. And that’s not necessarily wrong.

But look at Wade Phillips, however, who is known for running a one-gap 34. His defenses have had a number of different personnel types. He’s had defenses where his DE outweighed his NT and seasons where he’s had a 330 lb. NT. He’s had years where’s run three OLBs simultaneously. But it’s always been primarily a one gap defense where the defensive linemen generate pressure, as opposed to the traditional “hit, fit and react” responsibilities of a 34 defensive lineman.

Further, he tends to primarily walk up his WILL to the line and utilize him as an extra pass rusher at a higher percentage than many other 34 DC’s, in effect just making him a 4th DL. 

All of that and he’s still considered a 34 DC, despite his defense being much closer to a 43 in philosophy.

@the-gipper said:

Well, I read it.  Maybe it was the flaw in the writing.   I was still confused if there was really talk about 2 people. 

Now that you have had your orgasm over the fact that I admit I probably got something wrong....you can go back, maybe, to talking football.  Or, will you continue to obsess over every word I write?   Here is a word that I will write that you can obsess over:   Psychoneurotic

"Probably" and "flaw in the writing"

You have just proven the point. You refuse to take responsibility. 

Here is Flugel original post

"I wouldn't mind seeing LSU's Joe Brady get some consideration with all I'm reading and hearing about how much he has helped Joe Burrow progress from last year.  Prior to that, he worked on Sean Payton's staff with Drew Brees. I'd rather see Brees as Baker's role model than Favre.  I've seen 1 throw off the backwards hop too many to like hearing the Favre resemblance.  We also need some brain cells in our coaching staff that understand we need to bury the shuffle pass once and for all. 

Back to Joe Brady, he has NFL and college experience.  Again, if I want hiring criteria to improve I'd rather see more than 2 candidates (with a gut feeling they are already leaning toward the 1 they worked with in GB). I like Mike McCarthy as a candidate; but Joe Brady's work at LSU transcended the program and the QB to the National Championship Game.  Not a bad resume when you can say I was the only one that tapped Joe Burrow's QB talent; especially when we see how much he did so..."

So please Mr. Know it all, where is the flaw in that writing? Since they are BOTH named there, and there would be very minuscule chance that Joe Burrow, the QB (who was at OSU) would have worked with Payton and Brees.

And I am STILL waiting for you to reference ONE poor opinion I have had

@gunz41 said:

And you don't see the problem here? Multiple times from multiple people Joe Brady was referred to as a coach and separate from Burrow. Yet you continued on with it.

The majority of that could have been avoided had you actually read what was being said, or even just getting the facts when it kept coming up

Well, I read it.  Maybe it was the flaw in the writing.   I was still confused if there was really talk about 2 people. 

Now that you have had your orgasm over the fact that I admit I probably got something wrong....you can go back, maybe, to talking football.  Or, will you continue to obsess over every word I write?   Here is a word that I will write that you can obsess over:   Psychoneurotic

@the-gipper said:

A.  I did admit that I was wrong.....how did you miss that?

B. I guess I was still confused about the existence of this "Joe Brady".    I have only ever heard that in reference to  Joe Burrow (thinking that it was like Joe Tom Brady. 

C. And I repeat....WTF are you talking about with "teenage girls"?   As far as I know, any photo I may have put up here has been an adult.  

And you don't see the problem here? Multiple times from multiple people Joe Brady was referred to as a coach and separate from Burrow. Yet you continued on with it.

The majority of that could have been avoided had you actually read what was being said, or even just getting the facts when it kept coming up

@flugel said:

Am I mad or disappointed the bug up your asss about a previous debate we had months ago won't die as it spills out into other conversations? I named 1 candidate I'd like Cleveland to at least consider (Joe Brady and gave reasons why).  Then came your asss hurt via the way you responded. I wouldn't have minded if you disagreed and gave a reason like "yeah but his lack of experience as a HC concerns me."  Instead you chose to be a douche bag.

As a result, I cut and pasted everything you said so I could use your own words against you like some sort of cyber Judo.  For example, when you tried to change the context of what I wrote - it showed readers who had trouble with the truth.   The context was never me having an issue with pictures of adult hotties being shared in here. It was you sharing pictures of teenage girls when you're in your mid-late 60s. That's creepy.  And since you like to remind us frequently you work in a court room - your version of extra hot is extra creepy. This has ZERO to do with Zombo or others in here that know the difference between women and teenagers and you know that.

I'm all done with this argument and your inability to admit when your wrong so carry on without me...

A.  I did admit that I was wrong.....how did you miss that?

B. I guess I was still confused about the existence of this "Joe Brady".    I have only ever heard that in reference to  Joe Burrow (thinking that it was like Joe Tom Brady. 

C. And I repeat....WTF are you talking about with "teenage girls"?   As far as I know, any photo I may have put up here has been an adult.  

Women? Never.  Teenage Girls?  I'm 55 so that would be a little creepy to get as excited as you do about them and you're in your mid-late 60s. The surgery you just tried on context was adorable!   - Tom F.

Never put teenage girls on here....not to my knowledge.  Not sure where you are getting that. 

Had two recruits join me in 2019. Always room for more...

@the-gipper said:

So, let me summarize:

A.  Gunz is mad because  I left the S off of Joe Burrows name......or , is it because I put an S there where none exists; and because  I had never heard that player referred to as "Coach".   I guess I can solve that by spelling his name right....or doing what he did and spell like the French. 

B. He is also mad because I engage in friendly fan arguments over sports.   I don't know what to do about that other than to agree with whatever any of you say here.  LIke a mocking bird I guess. 

C. Flugel is mad because I thought the Ravens lost a lot of talent and would not be as good as they are, and because I didn't think Lamar Jackson would turn out as good as he seems to have.   I can solve that by saying....yea, I got that prediction wrong obviously.  

Am I mad or disappointed the bug up your asss about a previous debate we had months ago won't die as it spills out into other conversations? I named 1 candidate I'd like Cleveland to at least consider (Joe Brady and gave reasons why).  Then came your asss hurt via the way you responded. I wouldn't have minded if you disagreed and gave a reason like "yeah but his lack of experience as a HC concerns me."  Instead you chose to be a douche bag.

As a result, I cut and pasted everything you said so I could use your own words against you like some sort of cyber Judo.  For example, when you tried to change the context of what I wrote - it showed readers who had trouble with the truth.   The context was never me having an issue with pictures of adult hotties being shared in here. It was you sharing pictures of teenage girls when you're in your mid-late 60s. That's creepy.  And since you like to remind us frequently you work in a court room - your version of extra hot is extra creepy. This has ZERO to do with Zombo or others in here that know the difference between women and teenagers and you know that.

I'm all done with this argument and your inability to admit when your wrong so carry on without me...

@the-gipper said:

So?  Do you really object to the photos of women on here?   - Gipper

Women? Never.  Teenage Girls?  I'm 55 so that would be a little creepy to get as excited as you do about them and you're in your mid-late 60s. The surgery you just tried on context was adorable!   - Tom F.

So, I assume that you have the same objection to Z and everyone else? - Gipper

Zombo doesn't post pictures of teenage girls and I don't recall many other guys old enough to be fathers and grandfathers doing it either.  If a teenage boy does it - it's not nearly as disturbing as you doing it. - Tom F