@tour2ma said:

First... appreciate the outside the box thinking. That said...

1. I don't see Jax's incentive. They can afford to tag Ngakoue and trade him just as HOU did Clowney last season. HOU got 2 players... one with promise, other was Mingo... and the 'Hawks 3rd rounder this year.
2. Per OTC Foles has $12.5mm in dead money in 2021. https://overthecap.com/player/nick-foles/773/

The Brockmeister only cost Jimmah $16mm. Foles would cost almost $34.

I do agree that any 2020 cap crimp would be alleviated by cutting Vernon.

I believe the dead money only applies to the Jaguars if he is traded because of the signing bonus. This is similar to what happened with OBJ last year. I could very well be wrong. I'm not a capologist. In addition, the Jaguars COULD tag him but that would cost about $19 million and they only have $21 million in cap space. This gives them very little room. The players the seahawks gave up were garbage, Mingo is a special teamer and Martin played in 14 games with 11 tackles and 3.5 sacks last year. They were throw ins. I'm sure the Browns could do the same. 

This trade isn't perfect, but the idea is to be creative. I'm sure the Ivy league guys could make it much more palatable to the cap. The whole concept for me was to find a way to get really good players on this team while maximizing value. 

@bigalow80 said:

1. Nick Foles, Yannick Ngakoue, and the 20th overall pick to Cleveland .... Cleveland's 2nd Round Pick (#41) to Jax
2. Foles has proven to be a good back-up qb and he can be cut after next year with no dead money

First... appreciate the outside the box thinking. That said...

1. I don't see Jax's incentive. They can afford to tag Ngakoue and trade him just as HOU did Clowney last season. HOU got 2 players... one with promise, other was Mingo... and the 'Hawks 3rd rounder this year.
2. Per OTC Foles has $12.5mm in dead money in 2021. https://overthecap.com/player/nick-foles/773/

The Brockmeister only cost Jimmah $16mm. Foles would cost almost $34.

I do agree that any 2020 cap crimp would be alleviated by cutting Vernon.

@the-gipper said:

Beware the Ides of the NFL Combine.      What did the guy look like playing football?    It would be nice if he dropped.  The Browns would have to do some serious thinking about taking him. 

I became well aware of the Ides of idiots of the nfl network media straight out of night 1's claims... A) "Jordan Love has all the tools to become the next Patrick MaHolmes" ? 

Exhibit b) "Jordan Love after combine* drills has now become a serious Top 10* pick" ?... In a instance, i grabbed the remote to mute, till this media-hack's head left my TV screen..

stay thirsty my friends ? but know when to hit the brakes on what ya hear this time of year...    

Yannick will get tagged - that's about 11 million, and Foles is 25 million. That right there is way over half the cap space for a back up qb they probably won't need. Vernon got hurt last year, missed six games... but still....Yannick wants about 22 million btw...

money-wise, I'm not seeing it. That's just me.

Nick Foles, Yannick Ngakoue, and the 20th overall pick to Cleveland 

Cleveland's 2nd Round Pick (#41) to Jax

Here's the rub...The Browns are going to have to pay Ngakoue, although he would be on the Franchise tag so it could be for just one year. This is similar to what the Seahawks and 49ers did last year when they traded for tagged players. The 49ers signed Clark to a big deal, and the Seahawks let Clowney play off the tag. Ngakoue is going to get ELITE money and the Browns are going to have to eventually pay Myles Garrett on the other side in two years, but we can worry about that down the road because the Browns can always tag MG. This would allow the Browns to easily cut Vernon and save money there, unless he wants to restructure his deal and then the defensive line becomes not fair, but I highly doubt Vernon would do that. Foles has proven to be a good back-up qb and he can be cut after next year with no dead money so it's essentially Brock Osweiler 2.0 but only with a better qb. 

The Browns would be moving from #41 to #20 which is the equivalent of two, 2nd round draft picks*. They would be able to address BOTH offensive tackles or OT and Safety or whatever combination you want while also upgrading their defensive line. The jags win by getting cap space. The Browns win by getting a second first round draft pick and a stud DE which would make the line an ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE for teams with a quality but expensive back-up qb. It sounds crazy, but it could actually work. This is a way to be aggressive but wisely filling the roster while also active in FA and spending your cap space. I believe they would still have enough cap space to still sign a high end FA (Conklin, Bulaga, Ward, Smith, Schobert) but instead of multiple they would probably only be able to afford one.

In case you are wondering, as of right now the only real player that would be a FA from the team is Ogunjobi. Garrett and Njoku would have 5th year options picked up.  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/yearly/cap/roster/ 

*Trade Chart below:

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp?RequestTeam=CLE

@calfoxwc  haven't forgotten your other thread.  Just trying to do some film comparisons and notes between your boy Dugger and Jeremy Chinn.  Both play in similar base quarters system so it has made the contrast a bit washed at times.  Just letting you know i am working on it.

Field Yates @FieldYates

Isaiah Simmons by alignment for Clemson in 2019: * Safety: 218 snaps * Slot CB: 286 snaps * OLB: 160 snaps * ILB/MLB: 120 snaps * Perimeter CB: 17 snaps He rushed the passer 71 times and had *7* sacks. The most versatile player in the 2020 NFL Draft.

Simmons told Jones he's most comfortable at weak-side linebacker—which makes complete sense because the position allows an uber-athlete of his caliber to chase down opponents and make plays all over the field. 

Watch him identify the ball, diagnose the play, chase the quarterback, close the gap and finish from the second level in this clip provided by The Athletic's Ted Nguyen: 

 https://t.co/lPAFUu1m7u

Ted Nguyen@FB_FilmAnalysis

Simmons goes from covering the RB to closing on the QB in a hurry

Feb 29, 2020 48 2View on X

The burst seen above is often the difference between a negative play and not making the tackle. That explosiveness can be seen in his other testing numbers. Simmons finished in the top three among linebackers in his class with a 39-inch vertical jump and 11-foot broad jump. His lower half generates a lot of power and force. This applies not only to his overall speed but also how he explodes through blockers and ball-carriers. 

For example, Simmons is quite effective when asked to rush the passer. A running back doesn't stand a chance with the amount of force Simmons generates: 

Charles Robinson @CharlesRobinson

Some of those #Clemson highlights from Isaiah Simmons after he clocked that wicked 4.39 40-yard dash. Needless to say, you can see the sick closing speed for a 6-3 238 pound linebacker/safety. Gotta believe the #Lions will give him a look at #3 overall. https://t.co/VvnG3YJcx4

Whichever defensive coordinator is lucky enough to coach Simmons better be creative with their overall design and play-calling, because he'll be wasted if stuck at a singular position. 

Today's NFL is a sub-package league. Defenses operate from nickel (two linebackers with an extra defensive back) the majority of the time. Simmons can be a linebacker in whatever squad's base defense and morph into the nickel defender without anyone coming off the field. This advantage is priceless. 

Opponents with a heavy emphasis on tight ends within their schemes can be problematic because they present difficult matchups. Simmons is nearly as big and definitely faster than most tight ends. The offense brings out an extra receiver? No problem. Simmons can kick out and cover the slot. Want to use big nickel? No issues there, either. The reigning ACC Defensive Player of the Year can play the alley or line up at either safety spot. 

The fact Simmons can play deep third and still make plays on the back end is nothing short of extraordinary. 

Brady @BradyVernon

A 6-foot-4, 230 pound man shouldn't have this range. But even on the field I didn't realize the ground Isaiah Simmons made up on the interception in the Fiesta Bowl https://t.co/28SXUGsPYh

I vote we draft Simmons and have him stand 35 yards from the LOS

@gumby73 said:

      see, easy. peasy..  may we might see Jeff Okudah taking a possible slide? 4.48 40 sat at 11th in 1st group.. looked stiff as heck in early drills too.. 3)lions. 6)LAC 7)Car. & 9)Jags... have a primary need for CB.(maybe QB too?)... I'll be now taking cover under my truck for a Oil Change 🥷  hitting record...  Dollars for Dugger's ? get ya sum..

Beware the Ides of the NFL Combine.      What did the guy look like playing football?    It would be nice if he dropped.  The Browns would have to do some serious thinking about taking him. 

@tour2ma said:

I'll let the bench slide, but no 3-cone or shuttle? Think he cherry-picked his events much?

We know Lamar doesn't run in a straight line.

Or can he dodge a wrench?

@tour2ma said:

I'll let the bench slide, but no 3-cone or shuttle? Think he cherry-picked his events much?

We know Lamar doesn't run in a straight line.

Need a pro day and see what he does in the other events. Or bring him in for a private workout.

@gumby73 said:

Simmons "All i want'a do is Z00m..Z00m..Zoom..."  to a 4.39 40... I'll stand on that one at 240 lbs.. ties for 5th overall in 40's. 'let me chase Lamar'... 

I'll let the bench slide, but no 3-cone or shuttle? Think he cherry-picked his events much?

We know Lamar doesn't run in a straight line.

@gumby73 said:

can i brag just this one time?  Simmons "All i want'a do is Z00m..Z00m..Zoom..."  to a 4.39 40... I'll stand on that one at 240 lbs.. ties for 5th overall in 40's. 'let me chase Lamar'... 

it didn't occur to me til yesterday.... that another linebacker I met in college - I and a few friends collected several extra tickets from other students who weren't going...- for a bunch of his and his roommate's family and friends for a big game. The guy who called was TE Gary Pinkel, and the linebacker's name was...

Jack Lambert.  They both stopped in for the tickets and told us they really appreciated it...for a few seconds I met him again at the Robin Hood Inn a few weeks later - Jack was certainly tall, but at 6'4", he only weighed in about 223 lbs. Of course, that was long ago - but he slammed people with leverage and violence, and he was sideline to sideline. He looked lanky, but I wouldn't say skinny.

Interesting -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Lambert_(American_football)

"Lambert was the prototypical middle linebacker for what became the Tampa Two defense. Bud Carson, in his "Double-Rotating Zone" defense where safeties played back in a two-deep zone and the corner-backs played in two shallow zones or in bump-and-run coverage, instead of having the middle linebacker close to the line in run support, had the middle linebacker drop back into a middle zone to cover the seam between the safeties. Middle linebackers had not been tasked in such a way previously (Dick Butkus and Ray Nitschke being the epitomes of the run-support middle linebacker), but Lambert's size, speed, and talents facilitated the new role.^[4]"

^{*************************************************************}

I haven't seen Simmons slamming people into the turf like that - but maybe his weight isn't going to keep him from being a great player. who knows?

@gumby73 said:

Easy choice from ACC Country...ya take the defensive hybrid player of the year ?️Simmons.. the only defensive position he did not play was DT... 

can i brag just this one time?  Simmons "All i want'a do is Z00m..Z00m..Zoom..."  to a 4.39 40... I'll stand on that one at 240 lbs.. ties for 5th overall in 40's. 'let me chase Lamar'... 

@orion said:

So we drafted Simmons...and on opening day we're sending the defense onto the field....where does he play?  How many safeties go onto the field with him?  How many LB'ers?, How many DLinemen?  

Does he play at the LOS on 1st down, LB'er on 2nd down and safety on 3rd?

Can't answer that without know who the opposing team is, what they put on tape the previous season, what we feel they might do now, personnel and schematic strengths, weaknesses... etc etc.

He could be the 7th or 8th man in certain fronts.   He might play a dime linebacker?  Split out against move TE's?  Who knows?

Does he play at the LOS on 1st down, LB'er on 2nd down and safety on 3rd?

I have to keep in mind Aqib Talib's comments about coach Woods, one that shouldn't sit lightly with anyone.     When Wade Phillips departed Denver, Woods cut the play book down a good deal.   I truly believe a solid part of that was for his own benefit.  Being a first time coach isn't easy and it can be overwhelming at times.  You need to have a set of calls you can trust, are completely comfortable calling and are familiar in checking in/out of.    With those calls come personnel groupings, alignments and assignments.    Taking a true chess piece such as Simmons might only serve to complicate matters further for Woods who is still quite a young coach.      Because instead of focusing on expanding his playbook as a unit, he is now putting in some real considerable time tailoring his defense, specifically his back 7, around finding the mold of what works best for a rookie. 

I just don't see it as a union that would benefit our team as a whole.  Sure, we may gain a talented player.   But we may gain it at the expense of not having the environment to properly use the skill set to its maximum effectiveness.   This is a reflection on where we are as a collective as a coaching staff.       With a more veteran leader? Sure...  sign me TF up.    With Woods? Sometimes less is more.      

TL;DR.    No point in buying a mustang if you can only drive it during rush hour.

@calfoxwc said:

Dumb? question:

Simmons, 6'3"/6'4", 230-238 lbs, 92.5 coverage grade, NFL.com grade 7.02..., legit 4.4 speed. 104 tackles (16½ for losses), eight sacks, three interceptions and eight pass break-ups. I agree he won't play safety - but I think he can be all pro as a coverage lb, sideline to sideline play stopper - and behind the los play disrupter. Is it far fetched to see him as a Ray Lewis type player? Lewis was very ,very fast, 6'1", 240. I'd hate to pass on a player that could end up all pro.

Or Aaron Curry?  Curry was a little more stout but he played in coverage a lot in college and was great in coverage too.  

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

I don’t know if we have the luxury of drafting a defensive player with such a need for an LT. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a trade up a few spots 

It seems like there are no elite LT and quite a few rated around each other Becton, Thomas, Wirfs, Wills, Jones.  None of these guys IMO are worth trading up for.  In fact, I’m sure the Browns have crossed 2/3 off the list and they may not even be the guys other teams want which would easily have them fall back some spots and take one.

there are 3 or 4 QB hungry teams right in row behind us maybe one of them moves into our spot and we still can take one of those mentioned above 

Back in the day Joe Thomas was a no brainer he was a complete player even with AP there- I was okay with that. 

Cam Erving? No thanks and look what happened.

Alex Mack? I was still thinking nope but he turned out well.

Truth is we’ve hit on more than we missed compared to any other position. 

Id stay at 10 or fall back a bit and take the best OT.  Unless for some strange reason we can move up and take either Ohio state defender Young or Okudah.  I don’t think either will happen but I’d give up quite a bit to get Young.