@the-gipper said:

Just because it does not interest you does not mean it does not exist.  It just means you make an active  choice to be ignorant of the facts. 

And here is a clue to you about WWI weapons:   they could kill the shit out of you.  Right here, right now.  They even used shit that was deadlier than weapons used today.... like mustard gas....stuff that is even illegal to use. 

I mean there were certain techniques that Pre Super Bowl  that would have been hell to play in today's game:   like the head slap.  The forearm shiver.  The cut block. The Wedge. 

They have changed rules.....not weapons (rules to open the game up to more  scoring and for safety reasons).     You still have running backs, tight ends, wide receivers (though they were sometimes call "halfbacks"  "flankers"  "split ends" etc. )   That has not changed in forever.  In fact, with running QBs like  Lamar Jackson and  few others....they are going back to the way "weaponry" was deployed in the earlier years of the league....where the QB was  a combination  runner/passer. 

Feel free to compare the 50's to today's game, I'm not into it. But by no means, I'm telling you what to be into.   

@icecube said:

No, not really interested in pre-SB history. We might as well compare WW1 to today's weapons. 

Just because it does not interest you does not mean it does not exist.  It just means you make an active  choice to be ignorant of the facts. 

And here is a clue to you about WWI weapons:   they could kill the shit out of you.  Right here, right now.  They even used shit that was deadlier than weapons used today.... like mustard gas....stuff that is even illegal to use. 

I mean there were certain techniques that Pre Super Bowl  that would have been hell to play in today's game:   like the head slap.  The forearm shiver.  The cut block. The Wedge. 

They have changed rules.....not weapons (rules to open the game up to more  scoring and for safety reasons).     You still have running backs, tight ends, wide receivers (though they were sometimes call "halfbacks"  "flankers"  "split ends" etc. )   That has not changed in forever.  In fact, with running QBs like  Lamar Jackson and  few others....they are going back to the way "weaponry" was deployed in the earlier years of the league....where the QB was  a combination  runner/passer. 

@the-gipper said:

Otto has 7 rings....10 appearances in Championship games.  Statistically...best ever.   (.861 win pct....by far the best in history).

Have you seen Otto play? 

No, not really interested in pre-SB history. We might as well compare WW1 to today's weapons. 

@icecube said:

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

Otto has 7 rings....10 appearances in Championship games.  Statistically...best ever.   (.861 win pct....by far the best in history).

Have you seen Otto play? 

@icecube said:

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

fuck him GO BROWNS

Baker to the SB

@the-gipper said:

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

@the-gipper said:

i think they are going to end up in 3rd place....buffalo with diggs, i think, will win the east...i'm picking them to anyway....and watch out for miami...they are better than what most people think.........

@mjp28 said:

Almost nobody stays with one city and team for their entire career even the best ones finish up somewhere else.

well put...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/mike-bianchi-tom-brady-welcome-to-floridas-quarterbacking-graveyard/ar-BB11EMO3?ocid=spartandhp

@tour2ma said:

Interesting point... never thought about today's players

TR might actually have a shot at being good because there was no ZBS, but it is also true that holes were not always where they were supposed to be...and whenever that was the case TR was in trouble.

TR was also battling nagging little injuries especially when he turned pro.

AND TR as an NFL rookie used to keep battling for that extra yard and was getting hit worse than he ever did in college.

And another small point about TR I think he just gave up.....or "follow the money".  It explains a lot in business and life the dude is a multimillionaire, why get beat up every week ?  

Estimated Career Earnings

YEAR	TEAM	SALARY	SIGNING BONUS	ROSTER BONUS	WORKOUT BONUS	RESTRUCTURE BONUS	OPTION BONUS	INCENTIVE	TOTAL CASH
2012		$390,000	$13,341,000	-	-	-	-	-	$13,731,000
2013		$1,321,354	-	-	-	-	-	-	$1,321,354
2014		$2,252,708	-	-	-	-	-	-	$2,252,708
2015		-	-	$600,000	$150,000	-	-	-	$750,000
4 seasons	$3,964,062	$13,341,000	$600,000	$150,000	-	-	-	$18,055,062

@gorka said:

Put (TR) in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Interesting point... never thought about today's players

TR might actually have a shot at being good because there was no ZBS, but it is also true that holes were not always where they were supposed to be...and whenever that was the case TR was in trouble.

@gorka said:

Exactly. And I don't know either, and neither does Gip. All that can be expressed here are opinions and speculation. It could never be proven. My opinion is that JB would be good back but not a HOF'er.

Look at Trent Richardson, a 230 lb physical specimen touted by some to be the next JB.  A "can't miss" in the draft turns out to be a bust.

His awards in college:

• 2× BCS National Champion (2009, 2011)
• Heisman Trophy finalist (2011)
• Unanimous All-American (2011)
• Doak Walker Award (2011)
• SEC Offensive Player of the Year (2011)
• 2× First-team All-SEC (2010, 2011)
• SEC Champion (2009)
• SEC All-Freshman Team (2009)
• USA Today High School All-American (2008)

Put him in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Send TR back to the future NFL and he sucks again.

Send JB to the future NFL and I'd bet he'd suck too...ok not suck, just be not as good.

Again this is all speculation to which I form my opinion.

Gee wiz, with all the technology we have you'd think someone would come up with a working flux capacitor...the flux capacitor is what makes time travel possible ya know.

You are entitled to your opinion.    I am entitled to declare that I believe it is a very poor, off base opinion.  

So, just to be clear:   The player many, many consider to be the greatest of all time....you say would be mediocre at best in this day and age.  

I will only say that there are some elements that are unmeasurable that you did not take into account:  Heart and desire.  TR  (and many others of similar build, and with similar credentials)  didn't have the heart and desire that Jim Brown had.  Few ever have.  Walter Payton....did.  Jerry Rice...and sure, dealing with today's players:  Tom Brady does. 

@warriorsrpussies said:

Hope he packs a ton of sanitizer. With a bunch of old folks living there and idiotic spring breakers it's going to be bad there for awhile.

it's all those old folks passing gas that is killing the o zone

@tour2ma said:

Agree with you on Otto, but we part ways at JB. In his prime he was an unmatched physical specimen.  Had a six-pack before that was a thing. When he was still shy of 50 whenever I saw him I remember thinking, "JB could still play today." At the level he did in his prime? Hell, no, but at a level where he would not embarrass himself.

Ego? Sure... why not. Franco is the perfect example of an inferior athlete compared to JB... and, of course, it did not help that he was a Steeler. What did ultimately help is that Franco fell short in total yards.

The most compelling of all JB's stats IMO is rushing yards per game... only player to average over 100... and at 104.3 he eclipsed that mark by a comfortable margin.

How would JB in his prime stack up in today's game? I don't know, but I suspect that he'd be licking his chops at the prospect of facing nickel and dime packages. Somewhere the game and its players got to a level when the challenge likely out-sized him... but it wasn't in the 70's... or 80's.... or even the 90's...

Pluck him as he was in his prime and drop him into any of those decades and he'd have competed with the best. That's something I can't think is true of any other player of his era.

Later eras? More names come to mind... like Earl... but out of the 60's JB stands alone.

That's why he's my GOAT... and always will be.

Exactly. And I don't know either, and neither does Gip. All that can be expressed here are opinions and speculation. It could never be proven. My opinion is that JB would be good back but not a HOF'er.

Look at Trent Richardson, a 230 lb physical specimen touted by some to be the next JB.  A "can't miss" in the draft turns out to be a bust.

His awards in college:

• 2× BCS National Champion (2009, 2011)
• Heisman Trophy finalist (2011)
• Unanimous All-American (2011)
• Doak Walker Award (2011)
• SEC Offensive Player of the Year (2011)
• 2× First-team All-SEC (2010, 2011)
• SEC Champion (2009)
• SEC All-Freshman Team (2009)
• USA Today High School All-American (2008)

Put him in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Send TR back to the future NFL and he sucks again.

Send JB to the future NFL and I'd bet he'd suck too...ok not suck, just be not as good.

Again this is all speculation to which I form my opinion.

Gee wiz, with all the technology we have you'd think someone would come up with a working flux capacitor...the flux capacitor is what makes time travel possible ya know.

@gorka said:

Well gee he would of had to of been active if he was threatening JB's record, right?

Now these are the types of bizarre responses from you that TOUR was taking about, all because you just cant stand being wrong and need to weasel a way out. Saying "you're right" or "I was wrong" doesn't hurt that bad. I've said them before.

The fact remains that in 1983 JB was butthurt over Francos threatening his record because he runs out of bounds and attempted to thwart it with a comeback.

The article I posted reflects exactly that, not once mentioning Walter Payton name.

What is bizarre is your response.    Are you taking clues from Tour by having the inability to have a civil discussion? 

I don't care what that article says, I didn't bother to read it.  If it didn't mention Walter, so what?  That just means that that article didn't tell the whole story of that era.   But,  If it said that he hated the idea of Franco beating his record....that is true.  If it said that he contemplated making a comeback in order for that not to happen...that is probably true. 

I just know that  JB hated the idea of Franco breaking his record....but that he was just perfectly fine, and totally respectful of him to have Walter Payton break his record.  

His specific objection was to having Franco do it....not to the idea of the record being broken...by anyone. 

And I don't know, and I don't care if you were right or wrong abut that.   I just know that was the situation. 

But you seem to absolutely know what was in the heart and mind of Jim Brown.  I, on the other hand, can only go by what he said and did.  

@tour2ma said:

Can't say he was wrong...

Who could see that coming?

Color me surprised. 

@the-gipper said:

Well, Franco too was still active in  1983 and 1984....and also threatening to break the record.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrFr00.htm

Well gee, he would of had to of been active if he was threatening JB's record, no?

Now these are the types of bizarre responses from you that TOUR was taking about, all because you just cant stand being wrong and need to weasel a way out. Saying "you're right" or "I was wrong" doesn't hurt that bad. I've used them before.

The fact remains that in 1983 JB was butthurt over Francos threatening his record because he runs out of bounds and attempted to thwart it with a comeback.

The article I posted reflects exactly that, not once mentioning Walter Paytons name.

Who could see that coming?

@gorka said:

I don't think that is correct.

Well, Franco too was still active in  1983 and 1984....and also threatening to break the record.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrFr00.htm

Butthurt?  I don't know.  Again, he hated Franco's style of  ducking tackles and leaving yards on the field.   And since Franco and Walter were in a somewhat of a competition as to who broke the record....JB was clearly on Walter's side on that. 

I think also that maybe  he felt that Franco was just hanging on in an attempt to try to break the record. Franco was playing in his 13th season.

@the-gipper said:

Here is a courteous correction, the way I remember it anyway :   Actually, when that happened,  Walter Payton had already passed JB for the rushing record.   It is true that JB did NOT want Franco to break his record, because he clearly did not respect the way Franco played the game.  His specific complaint was that he hated the way Franco would constantly  run out of bounds to avoid a hit.  JB rarely if ever did that.   He DID respect Walter for the way he played so tough, and he was more than complimentary and deferential to him when Walter broke his record.....but his flirtation with coming back to play for the Raiders happened after that.  I think he just thought that he could actually do it, and thought about it as a challenge to himself.  He did, after all, cut his career short after Modell was being an asshole about him getting into training camp in the middle of him doing a movie shoot.  (do you really think Jim Brown needed a full training camp to get ready to play football?  Modell did, apparently).  So, he called it quits early.  While he was making more money doing movies than playing football, I do suspect that JB, later thought that he left a lot on the table with his early retirement, so there were likely some regrets there.  It had nada to do with his record being broken....it had already been done. 

I don't think that is correct.

@gorka said:

I remember Jim Brown wanting to make a comeback at 47, but for only one reason. Never was there a player who felt so threatened,  so consumed with the likelihood of another running back breaking his record.  That bothered the fuck out of him so much as to ask Al Davis if he could suit up in a Raiders uniform. The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harrison.

Agree with you on Otto, but we part ways at JB. In his prime he was an unmatched physical specimen.  Had a six-pack before that was a thing. When he was still shy of 50 whenever I saw him I remember thinking, "JB could still play today." At the level he did in his prime? Hell, no, but at a level where he would not embarrass himself.

Ego? Sure... why not. Franco is the perfect example of an inferior athlete compared to JB... and, of course, it did not help that he was a Steeler. What did ultimately help is that Franco fell short in total yards.

The most compelling of all JB's stats IMO is rushing yards per game... only player to average over 100... and at 104.3 he eclipsed that mark by a comfortable margin.

How would JB in his prime stack up in today's game? I don't know, but I suspect that he'd be licking his chops at the prospect of facing nickel and dime packages. Somewhere the game and its players got to a level when the challenge likely out-sized him... but it wasn't in the 70's... or 80's.... or even the 90's...

Pluck him as he was in his prime and drop him into any of those decades and he'd have competed with the best. That's something I can't think is true of any other player of his era.

Later eras? More names come to mind... like Earl... but out of the 60's JB stands alone.

That's why he's my GOAT... and always will be.

@gorka said:

I remember Jim Brown wanting to make a comeback at 47, but for only one reason. Never was there a player who felt so threatened,  so consumed with the likelihood of another running back breaking his record.  That bothered the fuck out of him so much as to ask Al Davis if he could suit up in a Raiders uniform. The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harrison.

Here is a courteous correction, the way I remember it anyway :   Actually, when that happened,  Walter Payton had already passed JB for the rushing record.   It is true that JB did NOT want Franco to break his record, because he clearly did not respect the way Franco played the game.  His specific complaint was that he hated the way Franco would constantly  run out of bounds to avoid a hit.  JB rarely if ever did that.   He DID respect Walter for the way he played so tough, and he was more than complimentary and deferential to him when Walter broke his record.....but his flirtation with coming back to play for the Raiders happened after that.  I think he just thought that he could actually do it, and thought about it as a challenge to himself.  He did, after all, cut his career short after Modell was being an asshole about him getting into training camp in the middle of him doing a movie shoot.  (do you really think Jim Brown needed a full training camp to get ready to play football?  Modell did, apparently).  So, he called it quits early.  While he was making more money doing movies than playing football, I do suspect that JB, later thought that he left a lot on the table with his early retirement, so there were likely some regrets there.  It had nada to do with his record being broken....it had already been done.