@cimo. said:

I'm glad. I know Clevelanders are a territorial lot (I sure was when I lived there for 20+ years) and there's a sense of comfort in that us-against-the-world mindset. It took moving away to fully comprehend the silliness of that line of thinking.

Beanpot

@beanpot said:

I live in Cleveland (used to at least...currently in Tampa, but same thing) and I take great offense to you telling US how we should react to this stuff. We're allowed to react to this deal in a way that you couldn't comprehend, man. So why don't you go and wrestle a steer or something and leave the righteous indignation to us locals! We've earned it.

Beanpot

Sarcasm duly noted, but it seems like I have to point it out....I spent the first 18 years of my life, and a lot of the next 5, in northeast Ohio. I got my degree down here and haven't mustered up the guts to move back yet. If anyone can find me a job up there where I don't have to shovel snow and can work from home 3 days a week, let me know.

But I guess for whatever reason I've just been de-sensitized to it. In my life as a Tribe fan, the only thing that ever made me want to call it quits was Edgar Renteria. Players come and go...and I have to say, besides the excrutiating summer waiting for Manny's decision, Victor leaving is probably the only time I've actually been emotional over losing one.

Like Kosar for Pres was saying, it all comes down to hating to lose. I didn't see us going anywhere this year, and if we were going to win next year it would be because of LaPorta and Brantley and Rondon and the like, and if (granted, a huge "if") everything goes to plan I don't think we'd miss those two as much as we think. I just don't think a singular starting pitcher can do too much for wins and losses over a course of a season, and as much as I love Vic, there's only so much he can do with his knees the way they are.

It's definitely going to get pretty heated when you lose a(nother) Cy Young and the face of the franchise...but there's no hard feelings and everyone just wants to start winning again.

So that's hopefully my last speech on fandom. I have steers to wrassle.

@cimo. said:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith

So two things that says....

1. It wasn't a seller's market. No one who "sold" is going to get instant gratification, and based on the other trades you can't say the Indians got fleeced for Cliff Lee.

2. This isn't just a Shapiro thing to value top prospects. The Phillies refused to give up Drabek. The Dodgers refused to give up Kershaw. The Red Sox refused to give up Buchholz. The Rangers refused to give up Holland. The White Sox refused to give up Beckham. No one wants to give up their elite prospects so to single out Shapiro is just ridiculous.

Exactly right, except for the part about not being able to say we were fleeced when it comes to Lee. Look, not allowing Cleveland fans to have inner anger and outward fits just is not Cleveland. You have to live here to understand it. And since you don't share a common area code, who in the hell are YOU to tell us that we shouldn't throw things?

I live in Cleveland (used to at least...currently in Tampa, but same thing) and I take great offense to you telling US how we should react to this stuff. We're allowed to react to this deal in a way that you couldn't comprehend, man. So why don't you go and wrestle a steer or something and leave the righteous indignation to us locals! We've earned it.

Beanpot

The Padres get one major prospect and some pitching depth but, as we've seen in just about every deal this month, no impact prospects. Lefty Aaron Poreda has a plus fastball with great life but pitches from a low three-quarters slot and has yet to show a consistent slider or good feel for a changeup. Although he has the physical build to start and can hold his velocity for 90-100 pitches, he's best suited to the bullpen. The same goes for fellow left-hander Clayton Richard, who doesn't throw as hard and has a better breaking ball but whose low arm slot and lack of a changeup make him vulnerable against right-handed hitters. I could see him working as a starter in Petco Park while the team isn't good, but on a decent or contending club, he belongs pitching in relief.

Right-hander Adam Russell pitched in Chicago's 'pen in 2008 but primarily is a one-pitch guy with a fastball that ranges from 92 to 97 mph. Righty Dexter Carter, 22, has a fastball that sits in the low 90s, has below-average command and is way too old and experienced for the South Atlantic League, which he has dominated this season. The main appeal for San Diego had to be the $50 million or so it'll save by dealing Peavy away.

So two things that says....

1. It wasn't a seller's market. No one who "sold" is going to get instant gratification, and based on the other trades you can't say the Indians got fleeced for Cliff Lee.

2. This isn't just a Shapiro thing to value top prospects. The Phillies refused to give up Drabek. The Dodgers refused to give up Kershaw. The Red Sox refused to give up Buchholz. The Rangers refused to give up Holland. The White Sox refused to give up Beckham. No one wants to give up their elite prospects so to single out Shapiro is just ridiculous.

@pumpkin-eater said:

Super. How exactly did anything I typed cause you to hit the reply button on my post?

Not really sure if you're just replying into the ether or if your "again" comment was meant to explain why one would stop being a fan.

Again.

Beanpot

@lebrent said:

They have one of the best pitchers in baseball for another year and that sells tickets.

They also can trade him next year and there will be even more buyers because they only have to pay him for a half a year.

In my opinion the Blue Jays are doing what we should have done, waited to be overwhelmed and if not just wait 'till next year with the ace still on your roster winning games and selling tickets.

This has been a weird thread, still digging through it. I agree with LeBrent here concerning the Jays and Halladay. Toronto fans were looking for other teams to follow when it looked like Roy was about to be dealt. He's their Bernie. There most certainly will be more buyers next July, primarily due to a lesser asking price.

Ricciardi takes a ton of heat in ton of places, much of it deserved when it comes to personality, but I think he did the right thing here.

Beanpot

We are always rebulding under this ownership/mangement. When players get good and their contracts are about up, we trade them for prospects and the cycle continues.

I am still a Tribe fan, but this management group makes it hard to give a damn, when you know our stars are only here temporarily. We are the minor leagues for the rest of the majors.

@cimo. said:

If the Jays don't trade Halladay, they aren't considered losers.

They have one of the best pitchers in baseball for another year and that sells tickets.

They also can trade him next year and there will be even more buyers because they only have to pay him for a half a year.

In my opinion the Blue Jays are doing what we should have done, waited to be overwhelmed and if not just wait 'till next year with the ace still on your roster winning games and selling tickets.

"You can't fire the whole team....So you fire the manager"

Obviously Shapiro didn't get the memo

The part about not trying to get better. Our biggest weaknesses after 2008 were the thin rotation, no one at 3rd base (while Peralta was at short), the weak bullpen and lack of a closer.

So we got Carl Pavano as a low risk/decent reward for the rotation, Mark DeRosa who can play 2nd, 3rd, and the outfield, Valbuena who could take over at 2nd when Cabrera and Peralta shift, Joe Smith for the bullpen and our $10M closer Kerry Wood.

@lebrent said:

What seems to be forgotten is that the Blue Jays are getting laughed out of every proposal they make. We got a pretty good haul for Lee while the Jays might walk away with nothing and/or basically commit suicide by dealing Halladay to a team in their division.

@cimo. said:

I'll agree that Gilbert puts his money where his mouth is, but the Cavs aren't some well oiled machine. They won the powerball lottery when they got LeBron, stole Mo Williams from Milwaukee (who just gave up Jefferson and Villanueva for nothing), their best draft acquistion since '03 was Anderson Varejao, they haven't gotten a single impact free agent, and blew it at the trade deadline last year, have won nothing, yet everyone is happy to shower them with praises because they're willing to pay Larry Hughes, Wally Szczerbiak and Ben Wallace 15 million a year.

I have no idea what the Browns payroll looks like, but it's pretty obvious, even for a slack-jawed southerner like me, that they've gotten away with a lot of shit. I shouldn't even have to say more than one sentence. The Browns we grew up with now play in Baltimore. But who have the new Browns thrown money at? Eric Steinbach? Reuben Droughns? They haven't given away talent because until a couple years ago they didn't have any. Now Sean Jones and Kellen Winslow are gone, Cribbs is wanting a new deal, and everyone seems to expect Braylon Edwards to be gone when his deal runs up. So with that money they're saving, are they going after Albert Haynesworth? Houshmandzadeh? No. They'll take Eric Barton and Abe Elam and the best fans in the NFL are fine to sit through another rebuilding season because it's the Browns.

And I don't know, I haven't really heard anyone say we'd be a good team in 2010 with Cliff, just that we should've kept him because he's fun to watch and now our payroll is going to be too low. Myself, I'd rather get the most I can for him and make sure your future isn't as bad as disappointing as your present.

Do I really have to point out to you that the Browns and the Cavs are, at least, making changes in attempt to get better NOW. When it comes to payroll, Mankok is limited with the Browns and the NFL's salary cap. And they are a little handcuffed because of the previous regime. But they are out there making moves and doing what they can to make the team better.

When it comes to the Cavs, do I really agree with every contract they give? Nope. But, I cannot fault Ferry and Gilbert for doing whatever they can to shake the team up and try to build a better team around their star. They went to the finals for the first time ever. Then went out and tried to improve the team. They finished with the best record in the NBA and had the league MVP. Then they made every attempt to get better. They want to win a championship. Anything less is not good enough!

Neither of those organizations has told fans that they had to buy tickets and spend money before they were going to put out the cash to provide a quality and competititve team! Dolan did! Even after there was more than enough proof of support for the Tribe! What part of that do you not understand!

Could we be better with Cliff? Yes. Could we be good with Cliff? Yes. Could we be good without Cliff? Yes...but not by looking to compete 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road. Shapiro and Dolan are the ultimate procrastinators. They keep pushing winning off on tomorrow and tomorrow ends up never arriving! Just like the Indians. They will never arrive fully under the current ownership!

@lebrent said:

We were the best team in baseball.

@kosar_for_president said:

I don't like what we got in return for Lee at all, and I definitely think we should have waited for a Halladay type deal or wait.

But to say that this was a good team? That's crazy.

We are 18 or so games under .500.

Our only good pitcher was Lee with thin young pitching in the system before the series of trades.

Martinez is only a luxury right now with Shoppach, Giminez, Torregas, Santana, etc.

We were pretty good in the second half last year and added pretty good parts this off-season but it was clear our pitching wasn't good enough to contend in the next couple years.

Our offense is deep enough that it should be good for a long time, but our pitching was so thin, that we got to the point we were in desperate need of young arms in the bullpen and the rotation.

I don't like the trade, but I think if anything, we have turned a weakness into a strength in terms of young pitching prospects.

@cimo. said:

It's starting to seem like people would rather have an enormous payroll than a winning season.

I'll agree that Gilbert puts his money where his mouth is, but the Cavs aren't some well oiled machine. They won the powerball lottery when they got LeBron, stole Mo Williams from Milwaukee (who just gave up Jefferson and Villanueva for nothing), their best draft acquistion since '03 was Anderson Varejao, they haven't gotten a single impact free agent, and blew it at the trade deadline last year, have won nothing, yet everyone is happy to shower them with praises because they're willing to pay Larry Hughes, Wally Szczerbiak and Ben Wallace 15 million a year.

I have no idea what the Browns payroll looks like, but it's pretty obvious, even for a slack-jawed southerner like me, that they've gotten away with a lot of shit. I shouldn't even have to say more than one sentence. The Browns we grew up with now play in Baltimore. But who have the new Browns thrown money at? Eric Steinbach? Reuben Droughns? They haven't given away talent because until a couple years ago they didn't have any. Now Sean Jones and Kellen Winslow are gone, Cribbs is wanting a new deal, and everyone seems to expect Braylon Edwards to be gone when his deal runs up. So with that money they're saving, are they going after Albert Haynesworth? Houshmandzadeh? No. They'll take Eric Barton and Abe Elam and the best fans in the NFL are fine to sit through another rebuilding season because it's the Browns.

And I don't know, I haven't really heard anyone say we'd be a good team in 2010 with Cliff, just that we should've kept him because he's fun to watch and now our payroll is going to be too low. Myself, I'd rather get the most I can for him and make sure your future isn't as bad as disappointing as your present.

@lcdawgfan13 said:

LCD, perfectly said bro. We made him a bunch of money, and now he's not making it and didn't put some of that aside for the future, the fans are paying the price. It stinks of business. With Lerner and Gilbert it feels like a team or even a family, not a business.

@cimo. said:

The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.

But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.

Lerner and Gilbert are not the owners that have repeatedly stated that in order for them to spend money to bring a good team to Cleveland, they need to see the teams sell out every game. Dolan has stated that he will spend the money but not until the fans do. Huge difference. Especially when you look at the fact that there was a winning team in place when Dolan bought the tribe and the attendance was still up. He took over in 2000. In 1999, the Indians were 97-65 with an attendance of 3,468,436. In 2000, they were 90-72 with an attendance of 3,456,278. Even in 2001, they were 91-71 with the attendance at 3,175,523. So, we were funding the team just fine, even under Dolan. Now we all understand that most teams, not named the Yankees and Red Sox, have to rebuild at some time. Since 2002, the club has had 2 seasons over .500 and one right at .500 and 4 losing seasons...oh wait...5 losing seasons counting '09. '02, '03, '06, and now '09 were absolutely abysmal. Dolan hasn't held up his end. If he had, then we would not going through a complete rebuild again.

@cimo. said:

The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.

But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.

It has nothing to do with the Indians of the 90's. Different owners. Neither the Cavs or the Browns blew up a good team, they added talent, not traded it away. Those owners made honest decisions about what are the best chances of winning now. Dolan is doing just the opposite. You have to admit that?

@cimo. said:

The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.

But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.

I can only speak for myself, not send generalizations of a whole city from down yonder.

@kosar_for_president said:

The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.

The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.

But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.

@pumpkin-eater said:

Clay Buchhol or bust.

@lcdawgfan13 said:

Shaprio would never make such a trade. Throw in a third round pick in next year's draft and he'll pull the trigger.

@lcdawgfan13 said:

They are trying to get Clay Buchhol for him. And if his girlfriend comes with the deal, so be it.