@choco said:

it realy makes sense....and creates and easy-to-succeed environment.

I'm sure that's what they told Kurt Warner after his stint with the Giants. It's been so long since there's been a prime time QB in Cleveland, I doubt the fans would recognize him if he walked through the door. How much you want to bet that Delhomme won't be any worse than #10 and #3 were last year? How many sub-100 yard games is he going to have? Choco...you could come off the street and throw for 50.

it realy makes sense....and creates and easy-to-succeed environment.

@atenears said:

Serioulsy, why can't we ever bring in a veteran to push these young dumbass'es?

I went to Camp today with Riffer. He's a Quinn homo and still hangs onto that 'hope' and 'dream' that someday a pretty boy QB will make the front cover of the National mag's don'ing a Browns Jersey.

Screw that pipe dream! These guys are followers, back-ups, losers, never-was .....

Anderson and Quinn looked like shit today. As Riff stated, Anderson held the ball so long I blew my load and had a cigarette. Quinn panics and dumps passes through defenders arms that are just plain stupid throws. He puts touch on a balls that should be hammered home in a goal line set. He floats a ball when a receiver busts a seem and can't wait around for a delivery.

hold on a second ... I'm dry heaving.

We sit here day-in and day-out hanging on these two clowns. Where's Drew Bledsoe for $1-mil? Why are we stuck in an off-season with Brett Farve and Michael Vick? Where is the Vet that could out play these two kids with his eyes closed?

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourselves. Again as Riff stated, you might read or hear of a TD pass from one of these guys, but what the story fails to tell you is how one of our weakass DE's already busted in, stopped, and stared at the QB for two-seconds before that pass was ever even thought of being released. 3.5-seconds before it's launched. (I'm not exaggerating, although I wish I were)

OMG, I'm going to get sick.

Let's switch gears and talk about something else.

The receivers caught virtually EVERYTHING. Ok, a pass or so behind a TE was occasionally dropped. Rucker dropped a pass in one-on-one routes that was poor, but beyond that it was catch, after catch, after catch, after catch. much improved from recent years and definately the best ever while a Robiskie was on the field (that's a dig at the father ... settle down Buckeye fans).

The DB's seemed to play closer to the line from years past. Those that know me, know that I like that. I like me some bump-n-run. To tell you the truth, the biggest WR blunder tonight was Braylon not getting off the line on one one-on-one drill, he lined up again with a short break and stumbled again. I can't remember the DB in coverage (Riff?), but on the first attempt, the DB shoved Braylons head to to the ground and stopped him dead as he stumbled out of the blocks. the second time, Braylon stumbled on his own while attempting to fire off. The plays were consecutive, so they stuck out. Keep in mind, this was a one-on-one drill with just him, a DB, and his QB - with all the time in the world to run an elaborate route and get seperation. It's a WR drill, the DB's are typically hung out to dry with no help. Braylon, to his credit, made all the catches, but didn't look 100% with his legs under him.

Let's move on to the RB's ... i'm going to pick-up where I left off in years past in calling out Jamal Lewis. He don't look nearly as hungry as he did when he came here. I say he's washed up, and won't contribute much this season. I like James Davis a lot ... I keep thinking of Greg Pruitt when I see him. Not the moves and break-away (tear-away?) factor, but the type of body or build. He looks smooth. (Zippy, he is my 'Corey Bridges' take it for what it's worth). Harrison is over-rated. Guys (Harrison fags) c'mon, get serious. The guy is no where near taking it inside. He runs sideways behind the line. If we get him his 5-7 balls out in the flat with nothing but the end-zone 60-yards away, he may break it, or gain 40-50. But he's no every-down back. He's gay, and Jamal is the dancing bear. With those two and the two clown QB's, we will suck. Let's see what James Davis can do ... let's punt on third down (someone drown me).

Best Training Camp story ... honest to God, the Browns were practicing blocking punts tonight with Zastudil kicking. Each time, the DB came in uncontested and blocked the full-out punt off of Zastudil's foot. Is that crazy? I mean, it's cool that they are teaching/practicing it, but to use Zastudil for the drill? That's a dangerous drill on both sides.

We noticed that it didn't appear that we have any back-up FG kickers or Punters on the roster. On Special team drills, balls were launched by a back-up QB's arm, to simulate a punt/kick. That's a big change from previous camps.

I was a DA fag, and never really bought into the pretty boy, but have given up on both. I hate them.

The first Training Camp practice that I attended last year, I came to the same conclusion as Holmgren.

Don't forget about James Davis!

@atenears said:

Serioulsy, why can't we ever bring in a veteran to push these young dumbass'es?

I went to Camp today with Riffer. He's a Quinn homo and still hangs onto that 'hope' and 'dream' that someday a pretty boy QB will make the front cover of the National mag's don'ing a Browns Jersey.

Screw that pipe dream! These guys are followers, back-ups, losers, never-was .....

Anderson and Quinn looked like shit today. As Riff stated, Anderson held the ball so long I blew my load and had a cigarette. Quinn panics and dumps passes through defenders arms that are just plain stupid throws. He puts touch on a balls that should be hammered home in a goal line set. He floats a ball when a receiver busts a seem and can't wait around for a delivery.

hold on a second ... I'm dry heaving.

We sit here day-in and day-out hanging on these two clowns. Where's Drew Bledsoe for $1-mil? Why are we stuck in an off-season with Brett Farve and Michael Vick? Where is the Vet that could out play these two kids with his eyes closed?

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourselves. Again as Riff stated, you might read or hear of a TD pass from one of these guys, but what the story fails to tell you is how one of our weakass DE's already busted in, stopped, and stared at the QB for two-seconds before that pass was ever even thought of being released. 3.5-seconds before it's launched. (I'm not exaggerating, although I wish I were)

OMG, I'm going to get sick.

Let's switch gears and talk about something else.

The receivers caught virtually EVERYTHING. Ok, a pass or so behind a TE was occasionally dropped. Rucker dropped a pass in one-on-one routes that was poor, but beyond that it was catch, after catch, after catch, after catch. much improved from recent years and definately the best ever while a Robiskie was on the field (that's a dig at the father ... settle down Buckeye fans).

The DB's seemed to play closer to the line from years past. Those that know me, know that I like that. I like me some bump-n-run. To tell you the truth, the biggest WR blunder tonight was Braylon not getting off the line on one one-on-one drill, he lined up again with a short break and stumbled again. I can't remember the DB in coverage (Riff?), but on the first attempt, the DB shoved Braylons head to to the ground and stopped him dead as he stumbled out of the blocks. the second time, Braylon stumbled on his own while attempting to fire off. The plays were consecutive, so they stuck out. Keep in mind, this was a one-on-one drill with just him, a DB, and his QB - with all the time in the world to run an elaborate route and get seperation. It's a WR drill, the DB's are typically hung out to dry with no help. Braylon, to his credit, made all the catches, but didn't look 100% with his legs under him.

Let's move on to the RB's ... i'm going to pick-up where I left off in years past in calling out Jamal Lewis. He don't look nearly as hungry as he did when he came here. I say he's washed up, and won't contribute much this season. I like James Davis a lot ... I keep thinking of Greg Pruitt when I see him. Not the moves and break-away (tear-away?) factor, but the type of body or build. He looks smooth. (Zippy, he is my 'Corey Bridges' take it for what it's worth). Harrison is over-rated. Guys (Harrison fags) c'mon, get serious. The guy is no where near taking it inside. He runs sideways behind the line. If we get him his 5-7 balls out in the flat with nothing but the end-zone 60-yards away, he may break it, or gain 40-50. But he's no every-down back. He's gay, and Jamal is the dancing bear. With those two and the two clown QB's, we will suck. Let's see what James Davis can do ... let's punt on third down (someone drown me).

Best Training Camp story ... honest to God, the Browns were practicing blocking punts tonight with Zastudil kicking. Each time, the DB came in uncontested and blocked the full-out punt off of Zastudil's foot. Is that crazy? I mean, it's cool that they are teaching/practicing it, but to use Zastudil for the drill? That's a dangerous drill on both sides.

We noticed that it didn't appear that we have any back-up FG kickers or Punters on the roster. On Special team drills, balls were launched by a back-up QB's arm, to simulate a punt/kick. That's a big change from previous camps.

I was a DA fag, and never really bought into the pretty boy, but have given up on both. I hate them.

Anything different from this Camp report on August 5th?

Zombo said:

I still own him.

And defense still rules the AFC North.

But let's dissect wonderlic scores and 40 times for QBs a little more ... that must be why we are losing.

Zombo

Oh, this is precious ... Zippy takes a vacation to PA for a week, spends his time an hour or so from the Browns Training camp shooting pictures of deer and turtles on one of his many nature walks, then comes back ignoring what we do have for a pipe dream about a top-10 defense.

(insert golf clap)

How does James Davis look? Who cares it's all about defense. That was unfortunate that Hadnot went down - who cares it is all about defense. Any read on what is going on with Braylon Edwards? It doesn't matter it is all about defense. Is Alex Mack going to start? Who cares it is all about defense. We've put a lot of emphasis into the O-line with Steinbach, Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, ect in recent years, will it start to pay-off? Doesn't matter it is all about defense. How was your trip to PA? Oh I got lots of pictures of bambi's and turtles... it was so fun I never made it over to actually see the Browns camp, but I can sure chime in and discount everything by stating that it doesn't matter until we get a top-10 defense. Lookie, I even got 13 "Thanks" from others who thought I sounded groovy sheilding their favorite shiney QB's.

It's Football Season Zippy ... how about tightening your chin strap and joining us.

Zombo said:

Quit being such a homo.

Either Anderson or Quinn can win.

Every year we are like 30th in defense and the Ravens and Steelers are like #1 and #2 and some homo complains it's because our QB sucks.

Congrats Skippy, this year it's you.

F***ing Flacco goes to the AFC championship and everyone is still wondering about the QB position.

WHEN THE CLEVELAND BROWNS ARE A BETTTER PHYSICAL AND DEFENSIVE TEAM THEY WILL BEAT THE RAVENS AND STEELERS AND NOT BEFORE THEN I DONT GIVE A SHIT WHO THE QB IS.

F***ing Anderson threw for 29TDs and 3700 yards and we missed the playoffs by a gnat's hair and everyone blames him instead of the f***ing 30th ranked defense.

What the f*** is wrong with you people?

Zombo

If we had a top 10 ranked defense that year, we win the division and maybe the superbowl.

@jason-j said:

The entire camp is broken down into a series of if/then contingencies. It's really something to see.

My only concern is that it's such a change, I'm afraid they may lose a few vets emotionally. And maybe that's OK. Some guys just aren't wired to make the switch from a theoretical coach who works like an orchestra conductor, and a task master like Mangini who seems to delight in breaking things down to the cellular level, only to rebuild it again.

It can get monotonous, tedious... and some guys will tune out after awhile if they're not feeling the success brewing.

-jj

theoretical coach who works like an orchestra conductor....Ummmm remind me which Browns coach this was????

I sign in tonight and somehow someone turned the clock back to training camp 1999 with Zombo and Skippy fighting about QB's.

The thing for all of you to remember is that Skippy hates ALL QB's except for St. Joe and Ken Stabler (when skippy used to wear Raiders jammies and a Raiders cowboy hat). His opinion on the play of QB's is about as relevant as Lumpdick commenting on the play of any QB not from Oregon.

@playgroundlegend said:

every time this guy posts its sick, he has the voice of football god, hence why he has more thanks than posts....

Thanks for the kind words. But I've got 24 12 year-olds this year to coach up. And I'm relishing not being the head coach this year. Defensive Line and WR's this year, and I love it!

-jj

@jason-j said:

The entire camp is broken down into a series of if/then contingencies. It's really something to see.

My only concern is that it's such a change, I'm afraid they may lose a few vets emotionally. And maybe that's OK. Some guys just aren't wired to make the switch from a theoretical coach who works like an orchestra conductor, and a task master like Mangini who seems to delight in breaking things down to the cellular level, only to rebuild it again.

It can get monotonous, tedious... and some guys will tune out after awhile if they're not feeling the success brewing.

-jj

dude, can you coach my intramural flag football team?

every time this guy posts its sick, he has the voice of football god, hence why he has more thanks than posts....

@riffer-x said:

They encourage questions like any employer should.

I agree. I also read Braylon's comments. The coaches want to WIN and play some football. It's entirely different from RAC's kid gloves philsophy.

They encourage questions like any employer should.

@atenears said:

Where was that Defensive mindset a few days ago Flippy?

LOL! WTF are you talking about Stan? If you're gonna call me out for something you THINK I wrote - you might want to actually READ it first so people think you're coherent when you do so. Do you know what I call someone that doesn't READ before he reacts? Andra Davis.

I was actually contradicting Zombo's point about all we need is a great defense and the QB will be fine. I said we couldn't do much better than keeping 2 AFC playoff opponents to 10 points and Dumb Ass couldn't WIN or lead us to a single TD. One of those games DA gave up the only TD while our defense did not. Is that what's getting you nervous? Then I referenced Baltimore's defense NOT winning when Kyle Boller started but they were able to win when McNair and Flaccoseagulls started. Where does that show me waivering my perspective?

Don't CONFUSE that with me enjoying Zombo calling you out. He doesn't like to play nice-nice with the crooked sheriff.

On a more positive note - thanks for the GREAT camp notes/insights Stan and JJ!

- Tom F.

@jadbf said:

it sounds like you have been able to see some of camp. And to get a little bit away from the whole QB debate portion of our show. What's your opinion of the over all level of the coaching going on with this regime compared to the last one? to the lay person (or moron like me) the reports coming from this camp just seem night and day different than under RAC. Would just love to hear your view of how camp is run over all.

Thanks

this is Golfer by the way

The pace is outstanding. It's definitely more business-like than what folks saw under Crennel. I'm a fan so far. You can see that Mangini is much more CEO than he is Ole' Ball Coach. He might be old school in some ways, but make no mistake, this is a high-tech effort. It's a big switch from sort of motivation-teaching to tactical-teaching. I don't imagine you'll ever hear coach Mangini say something like "We just need to play better". He's just not wired like that.

The entire camp is broken down into a series of if/then contingencies. It's really something to see.

My only concern is that it's such a change, I'm afraid they may lose a few vets emotionally. And maybe that's OK. Some guys just aren't wired to make the switch from a theoretical coach who works like an orchestra conductor, and a task master like Mangini who seems to delight in breaking things down to the cellular level, only to rebuild it again.

It can get monotonous, tedious... and some guys will tune out after awhile if they're not feeling the success brewing.

-jj

@jadbf said:

it sounds like you have been able to see some of camp. And to get a little bit away from the whole QB debate portion of our show. What's your opinion of the over all level of the coaching going on with this regime compared to the last one? to the lay person (or moron like me) the reports coming from this camp just seem night and day different than under RAC. Would just love to hear your view of how camp is run over all.

Thanks

this is Golfer by the way

Good question ... since Jason is out 'elongating his trunk' (jk), I'll asnwer for him.

Riffer and I commented on just how many stations and how much coaching was going on at once last night. To the far right were the injured with trainer leading them through excerises to strengthen their injuries. Directly in front was a trainer working with Heiden and his surgerically repaired knee. On the far field was a drill with DB's and DE's blocking live punts. O-linemen were just to their right, working on technique as a group. On the close field to our left was the punt coverage and punt defense teams getting barked at and honed A tire hung from a goal post in front of us, Huge blocking sleds lined the back of the end zone near a very high man-lift with camera crew. The RB's were split-up and in different drills, at least it seemed. The WR's and QB's worked far away. With a blink of an eye, the teams were scrimmaging right in front of us, starting at the 1-yardline with their backs against the end zone. Even during one long break, you could see coaches simulating pass routes for an individual player, others with play-sheets out combing over plays ... it was a well orchestrate circus.

I've always been impressed with Training camps, but this one is very well thought out. It would take hours to plan all this stuff out and it changes on a whim. Don't have a good seat to view the action? Stay put, 10-minutes later the action is right in front of you then gone again in an instant.

I enjoy bringing teenagers to the camps to show them how much the players take each drill seriously. They aren't just doing the drill because the coach made them, they are doing it for reps, they need the drill in the routine as it all fits together toward building and honing skills.

I may not be impressed with the offense so far, but I'm impressed by Mangini's camp. Of all the camps I've seen in Berea since 1999, I've liked Chris Palmers first year and this camp. Although this camp has a lot of specialty drills and one-on-one coaching and not as much full out scrimamging for the fans.

@jadbf said:

That's funny because there's a guy on The cavs site that is named Golfer 2 and he seems like the only person who knows anything.

That site is so overun by 8 year olds and people who are only on their to talk that know nothing about basketball it is getting hard to read.

@jadbf said:

this is Golfer by the way

By Golfer do you mean the only knowledgable person on Cav Fanatic?

@atenears said:

I've watched him have success in this camp 'flicking' the ball from his hip. I reported from the first camp that I witnessed him on a designed roll-out, come under a rush and launch the ball from his hip as if he was trying to clear it out of his hands before getting smeared by his bigger brother (a smear-the-queer analogy ... a bit of panic if you will). Again, he completed that pass as well as others, but I cringed ... it appeared ill-advised and reckless.

I saw him squeeze a ball through the trees of the linemen into an open space and again it was complete (I believe) but again it looked reckless and a recipe for disaster.

He doesn't appear to be standing tall and throwing over the top. So when you filed out the teaching verse about him working on the opposite of all of the above, I called you out on it and asked you to come back with an actual witnessed account.

Again, I hear what you are saying about Anderson needing to do this or that to put a screen pass in a more catchable manner. Again, I state that he ain't doing it. The closest thing you've touched on that I will agree with is that he needs to make a quicker read on the dump-off and this will help him tremendously ... but AGAIN, my reports are that his reads are even slower than years past ... thus my disappointments.

Sure I over-exaggerate to get some blood flowing here and drag out some good banter ... but I ain't completely full of shit, these guys need a kick in the ass and if I read "It's only the first week of Training Camp" one more time I'm gonna puke.

I expect these guys to be honing skills in training camp, not learning a new grip on the ball (Hi Tim Couch!), or taking an infant crawl toward changing mechanics ... these aspects should be 3+ months into their growth and if that is true, they need to start working harder and the excuses need to quit flying because they have a relatively short time to put this shit live in the stadium.

To your point, that's why I wanted to mention that I've seen scant reps of Quinn with the live group... and none in person. I want you to be clear on what I'm seeing and what I'm extrapolating.

What you're describing "sounded" like the results of mechanical tinkering... similar to the tinkering I saw in QB drills.

I'm a big believer in using my own eyes, and using third party information only as it relates to verifiable, empirical data... not opinions, generally. That's why I wanted to key in on the release point. Quinn has never been a true over-the-top thrower. He's always used that two-hand grip 3/4's high, midline on his numbers, and his throwing motion is more of a "collar-load". Some people call them "ear throwers". That is to say that the throw comes at about ear level. Not ideal for a quarterback that is just north of 6'3", but better than a 3/4 motion. It's a little more Dan Marino than Bernie Kosar. Although, Marino was nearer 6'5" and played nearly straight up and down, making it, if only slightly, less of an issue.... Oh, and he could throw the point of a ball into a spinning tea cup at 30 yards... so there's that.

Quinn's motion is efficient. It has fewer moving parts than most. But the short load does give you the tendency to rare back (dipping that shoulder), elongating the throwing motion in order to build enough momentum to get the ball deep. The correction is to train the quarterback to rotate his trunk to add length (and thereby, torque) to the throwing motion. You have to shift weight to the front foot and pull the hips through whipping the upper body (like a golf swing)... creating the rotational arc, rather than the floor-to-ceiling arc that the dipped shoulder creates. It's a tricky adjustment. And it feels like patting your head and rubbing your belly for awhile. And, oh my, does it create some ugly throws. It's not uncommon to see a QB learning this technique to throw a 30 yard pass and miss the target by 20... and to have it fly through the air looking like someone let the air out of it.

The trouble is, for both quarterbacks, even if you're not getting it right... if your mechanics are on your mind, something else isn't. You've only got so much RAM. You start prioritizing results vs. mechanics, you back off your mechanics to get the ball out - even though you're already late, and now you're back to square one.

It takes hundreds of reps... even at this level... Hell, especially at this level.

I guess my calm comes from the fact that I never worry about quarterbacks looking ill early. They usually do. Hitters are always ahead of pitchers in spring training.

Likewise, I never pay much attention to running backs looking good in shorts, or when the defense is going thud. I worry about quarterbacks looking lost in game plan installations, or running backs after 10 or 12 carries in live tackling.

Fear not, there will be improvement... how much? Well, that's another question altogether.

-jj