@texasag1969 said:

+My point was that Ettiene should not be in that area of the draft anyway. He's not up there with any of the other 3.

Well....I am going by how he was rated by whatever service it was that I copied.  (don't remember which one that was).   You could put in whomever you want in that spot....I even said that Henry could have been there....we would not be taking a RB. 

@the-gipper said:

You are not getting my point apparently.  If Henry were there at  22 we would not be taking him either because we have Chubb and Hunt who combined are better than having Henry,   in other words,  we have no need for a RB...if he is rated the 21st best player on the board,  if we have a LB that we can really use be just as highly rated. 

+My point was that Ettiene should not be in that area of the draft anyway. He's not up there with any of the other 3.

@texasag1969 said:

I don't think Etienne is a 1st rounder like I did Henry. 2nd round maybe but he would be a reach for us in that 21 area, a totally unnecessary reach.

You are not getting my point apparently.  If Henry were there at  22 we would not be taking him either because we have Chubb and Hunt who combined are better than having Henry,   in other words,  we have no need for a RB...if he is rated the 21st best player on the board,  if we have a LB that we can really use be just as highly rated. 

@the-gipper said:

Sure, but see my list above.   If we were say, sitting on pick 21....and Travis Etienne were to be considered the BPA on the board,  are we really going to draft a Running Back when we still have Chubb and Hunt?  Where the next guy on the list  is a LB.....which we far, far more desperately need than an RB?   Nothing against Etienne and the talent he brings...but unless that gap is massive and wide  between him and the next guy....I don't think there is any way we would go for a player at a position of strength as we have at RB. 

I don't think Etienne is a 1st rounder like I did Henry. 2nd round maybe but he would be a reach for us in that 21 area, a totally unnecessary reach.

Is it safe to say we will not take a QB, RB, TE, OT in the first round this year? And if presented with an opportunity of just this group- a trade out is the more likely scenario. 

You can make an argument (some stronger than others) for just about any other position 

@texasag1969 said:

And our true needs will not be sorted out until the pre-draft signings occur. Trades and/or FA can change everything and allow us to truly stick with BPA and not reach. Last year we needed OLs, but we signed Conklin and then went with BPA Wills who if anything should have gone sooner. He was a BPA who also fit need perfectly and those two moves turned this franchise around so we could run the offense we needed to run to get to 11 wins and the playoffs.?

Sure, but see my list above.   If we were say, sitting on pick 21....and Travis Etienne were to be considered the BPA on the board,  are we really going to draft a Running Back when we still have Chubb and Hunt?  Where the next guy on the list  is a LB.....which we far, far more desperately need than an RB?   Nothing against Etienne and the talent he brings...but unless that gap is massive and wide  between him and the next guy....I don't think there is any way we would go for a player at a position of strength as we have at RB. 

@tour2ma said:

Actually it's the worst.... makes teams reach.

Rest of post was spot on...

And our true needs will not be sorted out until the pre-draft signings occur. Trades and/or FA can change everything and allow us to truly stick with BPA and not reach. Last year we needed OLs, but we signed Conklin and then went with BPA Wills who if anything should have gone sooner. He was a BPA who also fit need perfectly and those two moves turned this franchise around so we could run the offense we needed to run to get to 11 wins and the playoffs.?

@vagitron said:

Drafting on need isn't always the best either.

Actually it's the worst.... makes teams reach.

Rest of post was spot on...

@vagitron said:

You need a linebacker more than you need a defensive end but it depends on how the draft falls. You all are going to be drafting a lot later than you are used to now. It could be best player available sort of thing. Drafting on need isn't always the best either. 

Yes,  but sometimes if you get down to the  20s, unless there has been a major drop of a guy who was thought to go higher (like Aaron Rodgers).....there may be such very slight differences between who is considered  BPA that it may still behoove you to go for need.   I mean, right now it does not appear that the Browns would need a RB or any OTs or QB or TE or OGs...the way Teller and Bito are playing at a Pro Bowl level.   So, at  22 say....it is wholly arguable that anyone available at those positions would be no more  considered the BPA than a Defender would be.   Here is one list of guys suspected to be ranked in that range:

21. Travis Etienne, RB, Clemson
22. Nick Bolton, LB, Missouri
23. Jevon Holland, S, Oregon
24. Rashod Bateman, WR, Minnesota
25. Mac Jones, QB, Alabama
26. Pat Freiermuth, TE, Penn State
27. Christian Barmore, IDL, Alabama
28. Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, LB, Notre Dame
29. Jalen Mayfield, OT, Michigan
30. Levi Onwuzurike, IDL, Washington
31. Patrick Jones II, EDGE, Pittsburgh
32. Samuel Cosmi, OT, Texas

If all of these were available,   I don't think the Browns would go for any of the ones I put a line through,  and could concentrate on the other guys. 

@the-gipper said:

Hopefully a successful surgery and a short recovery.  Nevertheless, I think the Browns  need to do something in the draft early to take a DE.  As much as we need LBs and  DBs  (though with DBs....what we need are the ones on the roster to be healthy).  

You need a linebacker more than you need a defensive end but it depends on how the draft falls. You all are going to be drafting a lot later than you are used to now. It could be best player available sort of thing. Drafting on need isn't always the best either. 

@vagitron said:

I never said it was longer but I did say that guys don't always recover from them to regain everything they had before the injury. I agree with tour that surgery has come a very long way and surgeons can do remarkable things. It's a tough injury but not an impossible one. 

Hopefully a successful surgery and a short recovery.  Nevertheless, I think the Browns  need to do something in the draft early to take a DE.  As much as we need LBs and  DBs  (though with DBs....what we need are the ones on the roster to be healthy).  

@the-gipper said:

I never said it was longer but I did say that guys don't always recover from them to regain everything they had before the injury. I agree with tour that surgery has come a very long way and surgeons can do remarkable things. It's a tough injury but not an impossible one. 

@sdbacker80 said:

Send a couple guys outside your front four on a blitz?  

he hardly does that but i think we are in a situation where he is going to have to do it.....its all or nothing mode now....

@tour2ma said:

So odds are 3:1 on his recovery. How many of the retirements were at the end of their careers and not just approaching that stage as Vernon is?

That said....

Much to Gip's disappointment there's no real disagreement here... just two sides of same coin... one optimistic... one not so much. My initial reply to SdB was simply to show it's too early to write him off to which he replied that wasn't what he intended to say.

You say it could be a 4 month recovery,  Vag says it could be much, much longer.   I think that is what you call a disagreement.  Yes, one is based on optimism, the other on pessimism...maybe.  It is still a disagreement.  

 But:  I hope you are right.  For some of the reasons you cite herein:  

Yes, it not a minor injury just as knees are not minor. Degree of tear is a factor as is age. But the surgical skill today is astounding.

In Vernon's case our Med Staff will be all over the surgical result, his rehab, etc. In other words they will know his prognosis long before any other team gets a sniff.

Motivation to return is the remaining big factor. This is Vernon's first significant injury. How he attacks his rehab will be the final piece of the resign decision... and again our Med Staff will have the inside info. They will determine his viability for 2021 and pass the info to Berry and Co.

@vagitron said:

It depends on the player, the position and the sport. Achilles injuries are pretty damn rough.  I used to deal with strains a fair amount, its definitely not an injury I'd feel good about if it were a steeler and that's especially true with a defensive lineman that has to anchor and push against dudes paid to move mountains. However professional athletes are remarkable human beings and recovery is different because they are built different. Vernon isn't getting any younger. 

26% of all ruptured achilles injuries end in retirement. They aren't minor injuries. 

So odds are 3:1 on his recovery. How many of the retirements were at the end of their careers and not just approaching that stage as Vernon is?

That said....

Much to Gip's disappointment there's no real disagreement here... just two sides of same coin... one optimistic... one not so much. My initial reply to SdB was simply to show it's too early to write him off to which he replied that wasn't what he intended to say.

Yes, it not a minor injury just as knees are not minor. Degree of tear is a factor as is age. But the surgical skill today is astounding.

In Vernon's case our Med Staff will be all over the surgical result, his rehab, etc. In other words they will know his prognosis long before any other team gets a sniff.

Motivation to return is the remaining big factor. This is Vernon's first significant injury. How he attacks his rehab will be the final piece of the resign decision... and again our Med Staff will have the inside info. They will determine his viability for 2021 and pass the info to Berry and Co.

@vagitron said:

Achilles injuries are brutal, I'd say thats especially true for defensive lineman considering the pressure put on them when you are battling with other lineman.  He's not super old but he's still 30.  I'd expect the Browns to stand by him in his recovery and as you said negotiate a less expensive contract or just let him walk when the time comes.  No way would I advocate signing him to another lucrative deal after that type of injury and soon being north of 30. 

NO!

You can't have him...

@browns52 said:

i agree...don't care for woods either....who is vernons' backup.....maybe he is a diamond in the rough....this is going to be a tough weekend....our qb pressure d  is not all that great...at least vernon has been showing up lately.....lb's are not good and the db's are a mess with all the injuries and covid.....woods is going to have to come up with some kind of plan....good luck with that...

Send a couple guys outside your front four on a blitz?  

@sdbacker80 said:

No.

I don’t trust his health and there are too many other guys on that side of the ball in the same boat.  

I would clean house. I’d take a hard look at our coordinator too.  

i agree...don't care for woods either....who is vernons' backup.....maybe he is a diamond in the rough....this is going to be a tough weekend....our qb pressure d  is not all that great...at least vernon has been showing up lately.....lb's are not good and the db's are a mess with all the injuries and covid.....woods is going to have to come up with some kind of plan....good luck with that...

@the-gipper said:

Wait....Tour  downplayed the severity of the achilles injury.  See:

It depends on the player, the position and the sport. Achilles injuries are pretty damn rough.  I used to deal with strains a fair amount, its definitely not an injury I'd feel good about if it were a steeler and that's especially true with a defensive lineman that has to anchor and push against dudes paid to move mountains. However professional athletes are remarkable human beings and recovery is different because they are built different. Vernon isn't getting any younger. 

26% of all ruptured achilles injuries end in retirement. They aren't minor injuries. 

@vagitron said:

Achilles injuries are brutal, I'd say thats especially true for defensive lineman considering the pressure put on them when you are battling with other lineman.  He's not super old but he's still 30.  I'd expect the Browns to stand by him in his recovery and as you said negotiate a less expensive contract or just let him walk when the time comes.  No way would I advocate signing him to another lucrative deal after that type of injury and soon being north of 30. 

Wait....Tour  downplayed the severity of the achilles injury.  See:

@vagitron said:

Achilles injuries are brutal, I'd say thats especially true for defensive lineman considering the pressure put on them when you are battling with other lineman.  He's not super old but he's still 30.  I'd expect the Browns to stand by him in his recovery and as you said negotiate a less expensive contract or just let him walk when the time comes.  No way would I advocate signing him to another lucrative deal after that type of injury and soon being north of 30. 

It's one of the worst. I feel awful for him. 

@jiggins7919 said:

If you asked me after the first month of the season, I would have said OV (Vernon) has to go. He's making big money and he wasn't producing. Fast forward to NOW, and he's been our best DE, even better than the covid stricken Myles Garrett in some games. Losing him for our playoff game is tear-jerking, but the question remains...what do we do with him? What do you guys think? 

Achilles injuries are brutal, I'd say thats especially true for defensive lineman considering the pressure put on them when you are battling with other lineman.  He's not super old but he's still 30.  I'd expect the Browns to stand by him in his recovery and as you said negotiate a less expensive contract or just let him walk when the time comes.  No way would I advocate signing him to another lucrative deal after that type of injury and soon being north of 30. 

I'm pretty sure his position will be targeted in the offseason.  

His contract is up I think.  At 30 years old and injury prone, perhaps a friendlier contract can be negotiated.