mz. said:

Can one not be realistic and a fan at the same time? We (ALL OF US) realize we aren't the Pats, Colts or Eagles, talent-wise, but we're still fans nevertheless. In your eyes, that makes us saps. In ours, it makes us excited for the brand new season to start.

Pray for us, Sony. We beg your forgiveness...

you forgot that you're also not the Reigning World Chapion Pittsburgh Steelers either!

something i don't understand about the browns organization is how you guys have had a top 10 draft pick every year (or just about) and still complain about talent? it's coaching and system pure and simple. hopefully with Mangini that will change............but it's not your talent that is to blame.

In the NFL for corner backs starting more than 12 games outof the 47 corners who started more than 12 games. He also leads all corners in the NFL who got beat for touch downs longer than 30 yards with 9.

@sony-reed said:

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but folks lets examine what this team is all about this season.....We are REBUILDING

This team does not have much talent, everyone is upset about last night but what you saw is much of what you will get this season

This team is at least 2 drafts away from contending and Mangini getting his type of players

This team has with the exception of Edwards and Cribbs zero offensive playmakers, and please people lets get off the Jerome Harrison as a every down back the guy is not and never will be a every down NFL running back

On Defense until we get some guys who can rush the passer and create turnovers we won't contend, When are the Browns going to admit they made a mistake with Wimbley and move on? The guy is a BUST and a new coaching staff is not going to change that

This defense has maybe 3 guys that could start for most NFL teams the remaining players on defense are role players or backups

The offensive line is not a good as most people on this board think it is, we have Thomas and a developing Mack and thats it folks, Steinbach, Womack, Tucker, St.Clair these guys have all played there best football, look over the next 2 drafts for a RG, LG and RT

On a final note neither QB is a Franchise QB and I believe Mangini will regret the day he traded a Franchise QB in Sanchez to the Jets, Brady Quinn is not the guy and many people will find out this season why he lasted as long as he did in the draft, the Browns are still going to have to draft a franchise quarterback because that guy is not on this roster

So lets enjoy the season and watch the young guys we drafted develop over the season and hope in the next 2 years we get it right this time

Not attempting to be Doom and Gloom just how I see this team........If we win 4 games consider it a good season

@holmes10_ward_86 said:

Browns fans shouldn't bring up those championships really. They're so long ago.

Steelers fans shouldn't be bringing up their past bought/steroid ones either. They're too long ago.

@shepwrite said:

The difference maker seems to be organizational, mostly continuity in ownership, head coach, offensive and defensive systems, and quarterback.

The cornerstone positions in football (tweaked for a 3-4) are left tackle, quarterback, #1 WR, pass rusher, nose tackle, and cover corner. The Browns have Thomas, Quinn, Edwards, Wimbley, Rogers, and Wright at those positions. Every single one but Wright was a first round pick, and right was, what? 33rd overall?

Does anybody think these guys lack talent? I certainly don't. I think the overall franchise needs to find, establish, and maintain identity and continuity from the top down. Before that happens, we'll be rebuilding every other year.

That is a Gomer statement.

Ok, sure, teams have talent.......but it is relative to the level of talent of the other teams..

Guys who get cut have talent.

Bottom line, we lack the talent to win.

We don't have the talent that other teams have.....does that make you feel better?

@restinpeace said:

Thomas's play DID fall apart. He was bad the last half of the year and that cannot be doubted. You can live in denial all you want, but facts are facts. I already mentioned my beliefs on Wright's ceiling.

10 35 454 13.0 45.4 33T 4 6 0 25 0

2007 New York Giants 16 70 1,025 14.6 64.1 60T 12 15 5 49 0

2006 New York Giants 15 63 988 15.7 65.9 55T 10 17 6 44 2

2005 New York Giants 16 76 1,214 16.0 75.9 78T 7 20 5 49 1

2004 Pittsburgh Steelers 11 35 698 19.9 63.5 48 5 13 4 31 1

2003 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 60 860 14.3 53.8 47 4 11 1 40 1

2002 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 78 1,325 17.0 82.8 62T 7 21 5 64 2

2001 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 66 1,008 15.3 63.0 43 6 18 2 48 1

2000 Pittsburgh Steelers 12 22 273

Here is Plax's career numbers. Can't you see Edwards following the mold? Plax's career hasn't been a total waste, but lets not overdo him. Edwards will probably fetch on the trade market what Plax fetched. Which the Giants offered.

So basically I am saying: We "probably" have a franchise LT, but probably not with OLB,CB or WR. QB most likely not either.

You will simply say they are good, not good, etc. with no factual reasons given is why I drink.

Show me where Thomas's play fell off. The whole offense collapsed the back end of last season and featured 2 guys later playing QB that have no business playing it in the NFL. Throw in Steinbach constantly having to help Fraley, and sure more sacks were given up. But Thomas's work at his specific position and what he is supposed to do was solid at his job. That is all I am saying. He was the 2nd best OT in the AFC last year. That might not be good enough for you, but I sure ain't going to knock it.

Here is what you have managed to say about Wright:

"Wright IMO is a stepdown than you want," to which I asked "Wright is a step down from who? Give me a 3rd year CB who is playing better and developing better? The kid just needs to continue to produce. But there are many teams around the NFL that would love to have that kid at one of their starting CB spots." None of which you have even touched on.

""talent of a number 1 corner. I don't see it. Even if he does produce, he ain't a stud IMO"

Yeah, I can see where you really touched on his ceiling

I am well aware of Plax's stats. Notice the number of years and how long Edwards has been playing. Then look at where they each played, and the situations there. Sure, if I want to stretch I can see Edwards going a route of Plax. Of course I could stretch and say Chris Carter, or any other receiver. The fact remains over half the NFL teams would take either of those guys as their number 1. None of which means I want either guy long term for my team.

Masters said:

You mentioned Wright but avoided my questions to you on him, gave no bar or standard you want him to be, etc. You just seem to want to state he isn't good and can't be no matter what he does. How about a little detail on what you see wrong with his game, who as a 3rd year is better, etc.

I don't think I over rate Plax at all (pre-shooting himself). I am not saying I want CLE to go sign the guy. But Plaxico has been productive WR in the NFL for numerous years. BE has not. There is no comparing the guys.

Your stubborn refusal to accept reality is why I started drinking.........

Thomas's play DID fall apart. He was bad the last half of the year and that cannot be doubted. You can live in denial all you want, but facts are facts. I already mentioned my beliefs on Wright's ceiling.

10 35 454 13.0 45.4 33T 4 6 0 25 0

2007 New York Giants 16 70 1,025 14.6 64.1 60T 12 15 5 49 0

2006 New York Giants 15 63 988 15.7 65.9 55T 10 17 6 44 2

2005 New York Giants 16 76 1,214 16.0 75.9 78T 7 20 5 49 1

2004 Pittsburgh Steelers 11 35 698 19.9 63.5 48 5 13 4 31 1

2003 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 60 860 14.3 53.8 47 4 11 1 40 1

2002 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 78 1,325 17.0 82.8 62T 7 21 5 64 2

2001 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 66 1,008 15.3 63.0 43 6 18 2 48 1

2000 Pittsburgh Steelers 12 22 273

Here is Plax's career numbers. Can't you see Edwards following the mold? Plax's career hasn't been a total waste, but lets not overdo him. Edwards will probably fetch on the trade market what Plax fetched. Which the Giants offered.

So basically I am saying: We "probably" have a franchise LT, but probably not with OLB,CB or WR. QB most likely not either.

@restinpeace said:

You like Plax more than I do obviously. We all want to overrate players so we can win more quickly than we expect, but it rarely works out that way.

The sum of the offense fell apart last year not Thomas. Was last year as good as 2007, maybe not. But being voted to the Pro Bowl for a second consective year in only your 2nd year in the league, it's a pretty darn good year.

You mentioned Wright but avoided my questions to you on him, gave no bar or standard you want him to be, etc. You just seem to want to state he isn't good and can't be no matter what he does. How about a little detail on what you see wrong with his game, who as a 3rd year is better, etc.

I don't think I over rate Plax at all (pre-shooting himself). I am not saying I want CLE to go sign the guy. But Plaxico has been productive WR in the NFL for numerous years. BE has not. There is no comparing the guys.

Masters said:

You didn't even address the Wright comments. Telling me he doesn't meet your standard or ever will, w/o even defining the standard or why he can't just leaves me flummoxed.

On Plax, other than last year, 05' and his rookie year, he has hardly had junk years.

Thomas fell apart last year. Hopefully it was from the collapse, but he wasn't that great all year like you want to believe. I did mention Wright, I don't think he is that talented. I do think he can become a "decent" starter, but that is about it.

You like Plax more than I do obviously. We all want to overrate players so we can win more quickly than we expect, but it rarely works out that way.

You didn't even address the Wright comments. Telling me he doesn't meet your standard or ever will, w/o even defining the standard or why he can't just leaves me flummoxed.

On Plax, other than last year, 05' and his rookie year, he has hardly had junk years.

Masters said:

"Sorry, but he hasn't put together more than 1 good season. The odds he gets back on track after the 2008 season, but we will see.

Wright is a step down from who? Give me a 3rd year CB who is playing better and developing better? The kid just needs to continue to produce. But there are many teams around the NFL that would love to have that kid at one of their starting CB spots.

"talent of a number 1 corner. I don't see it. Even if he does produce, he ain't a stud IMO.

Wimbley, sure he's on his last chance to show more of his rookie year and less of the other 3 seasons.

"Wimbley is Savage's Courtney Brown/Gerard Warren.

Edwards and Plax on the same career path? Didn't realize BE was out about town with his pistol and planning to shoot himself in the leg. The only things Plax and Edwards have in common is that they are both tall, athletic, and a bit of the WR pima donna going. The comparison ends there. Plax has shown consistancy over multiple years. Edwards has shown one year what he is capable and 3 other years of potential. But I can say without question any team in the NFL would take Edwards as a starting WR for them. And about half would take him as their #1 right now.

Please, Plax has 2 big years, a couple of decent years and then junk. Edwards is on the same career path. If so many teams wanted him as their numero uno, they would have traded for him last spring when the Browns outright put him on the block. The best they could get was a late 2nd and 5th rounder from the Giants. Hence, the NFL does not agree with your view of Edwards. They think he is a overrated pile of garbage.

@sony-reed said:

Sorry bro, jamal hasn't washed his ass in years.

@restinpeace said:

Thomas still has questions though he has demonstrated excellent pass protection abilities. We all know about the Quinn story.

Thomas still has questions? From who? Not his peers, NFL coaches, or scouts.

Wright is a step down from who? Give me a 3rd year CB who is playing better and developing better? The kid just needs to continue to produce. But there are many teams around the NFL that would love to have that kid at one of their starting CB spots.

Wimbley, sure he's on his last chance to show more of his rookie year and less of the other 3 seasons.

Edwards and Plax on the same career path? Didn't realize BE was out about town with his pistol and planning to shoot himself in the leg. The only things Plax and Edwards have in common is that they are both tall, athletic, and a bit of the WR pima donna going. The comparison ends there. Plax has shown consistancy over multiple years. Edwards has shown one year what he is capable and 3 other years of potential. But I can say without question any team in the NFL would take Edwards as a starting WR for them. And about half would take him as their #1 right now.

Thomas still has questions though he has demonstrated excellent pass protection abilities. We all know about the Quinn story.

@shepwrite said:

The difference maker seems to be organizational, mostly continuity in ownership, head coach, offensive and defensive systems, and quarterback.

The cornerstone positions in football (tweaked for a 3-4) are left tackle, quarterback, #1 WR, pass rusher, nose tackle, and cover corner. The Browns have Thomas, Quinn, Edwards, Wimbley, Rogers, and Wright at those positions. Every single one but Wright was a first round pick, and right was, what? 33rd overall?

Does anybody think these guys lack talent? I certainly don't. I think the overall franchise needs to find, establish, and maintain identity and continuity from the top down. Before that happens, we'll be rebuilding every other year.

I'd add talent doesn't do any good if it isn't properly used. We see time and again guys who look washed up or just bad on one team, then a pro bowler the next on a new team. Of course to your point, it is usually when they move to a team with established organizational and coaching continuity.

@sony-reed said:

Do you think the Jets are missing Mangini

That is why Roach made the comment.

We do lack talent. We only have 2-3 guys who could actually start for a top 25% team.

@sony-reed said:

Thanks for proving me correct, old man.

Can one not be realistic and a fan at the same time? We (ALL OF US) realize we aren't the Pats, Colts or Eagles, talent-wise, but we're still fans nevertheless. In your eyes, that makes us saps. In ours, it makes us excited for the brand new season to start.

Pray for us, Sony. We beg your forgiveness...

@choco said:

ive never posted a prediction....never indicated anything one way or the other with an exception of a preference DA over brady last year. and if you look around, you'll see i changed my mind. why is that?

the difference between us is that im here to learn as well.....youre here to talk.

Dueces

@greythan said:

The area this shows up most isn't in the role player but the playmaker.

We have one defensive playmaker and unfortunately for us he plays NT in the 3-4 (versus tackle in a 4-3 where you can "play make" more).

We have one offensive playmaker and he is notoriously inconsistent (BE).

That's a recipe for a lot of losses as it will require near perfect execution by the "team" to win games. You won't have a crucial sack by a Demarcus Ware. You won't have a long run off an average OL effort like you can get with a Peterson. You won't have a big INT or pass breakup like what an Ed Reed can give you.

Its going to be tough unless some guys not currently labeled as playmakers emerge and its hard to see that happening from any of the FA's we've brought in. As for the younger guys we've drafted in recent years.... time will tell.

You are 100% correct

@sony-reed said:

again...you dont know shit.

ive never posted a prediction....never indicated anything one way or the other with an exception of a preference DA over brady last year. and if you look around, you'll see i changed my mind. why is that?

the difference between us is that im here to learn as well.....youre here to talk.