@nickers said:

Ever since Tomlin tried to trip a Ravens player I have had 0 respect for him... He's a CHUMP!

An NFL Classic! !      

@sdbacker80 said:

Tomlin and Dumb? I wish that was the case and it’s a weird way to describe a Super Bowl winning coach that has winning record year after year and has shown rare longevity with a franchise that demands success. 

Ever since Tomlin tried to trip a Ravens player I have had 0 respect for him... He's a CHUMP!

@nickers said:

Here again... You assumed WRONG... I thought Tony Dungy was excellent... I also think Todd Bowles is pretty good too... Eric Bienemy has made a strong case for himself as well... I thought Hue was a good hire and we see how that turned out... There are some dumb white HC's in the league.. Remember Pat Shurmer?He's about as dumb as they come...

Tomlin and Dumb? I wish that was the case and it’s a weird way to describe a Super Bowl winning coach that has winning record year after year and has shown rare longevity with a franchise that demands success. 

@canton-dawg said:

You’re correct, I should’ve said Cam Newton was League MVP.

Figured that's what you had meant.  

Tebow would be the extreme example in this case. Could make honorable mention for Jake Locker when the Titans drafted him.

@dutch-oven said:

You think a black head coach is dumb.

There's a shocker. 

For clarification sake's - I just found that meme on a Browns board on FB, I didn't write any of it. 

But I think there's some truth to it. 

Here again... You assumed WRONG... I thought Tony Dungy was excellent... I also think Todd Bowles is pretty good too... Eric Bienemy has made a strong case for himself as well... I thought Hue was a good hire and we see how that turned out... There are some dumb white HC's in the league.. Remember Pat Shurmer?He's about as dumb as they come...

@tiamat63 said:

ROTY* 

You’re correct, I should’ve said Cam Newton was League MVP.

@canton-dawg said:

I know he was League MVP, but yet lt again so was RG III.

ROTY* 

@dutch-oven said:

Quarterbacks who struggle to stand in the pocket, read defenses and make smart, accurate passes eventually get figured out. 

This applies to a supreme athlete like Jackson, or an athletically mediocre, short QB like Mayfield. 

Yep, which ruffles the feathers of the Lamar Jackson worshippers.

I know he was League MVP, but yet again so was RG III.

@nickers said:

Tomlin isnt as bright as you think he is... I happen to think hes one of the dumbest coaches in the league... Ben covers a lot of his dumb snafus...

The only issue is, the rumored design of the defensive coaching staff echoes my sentiments and film review.  It's not that Baker can't*, he's just very hit and miss with it.  Especially on post snap shifts.   Mayfield tends to spray the ball into zone coverage on straight drops.  

Brady Quinn was notorious for that same thing.

@canton-dawg said:

I recall the Ravens vs Dolphins Monday night game.

The Fins blitzed Lamar Jackson nearly every snap.

The results?  Through 3 quarters LJ put 3 points on the board, and he ran for only 39 yards.

Quarterbacks who struggle to stand in the pocket, read defenses and make smart, accurate passes eventually get figured out. 

This applies to a supreme athlete like Jackson, or an athletically mediocre, short QB like Mayfield. 

@nickers said:

Tomlin isnt as bright as you think he is... I happen to think hes one of the dumbest coaches in the league... Ben covers a lot of his dumb snafus...

You think a black head coach is dumb.

There's a shocker. 

For clarification sake's - I just found that meme on a Browns board on FB, I didn't write any of it. 

But I think there's some truth to it. 

The Fins blitzed Lamar Jackson nearly every snap.

The results?  Through 3 quarters LJ put 3 points on the board, and he ran for only 39 yards.

@dutch-oven said:

Tomlin isnt as bright as you think he is... I happen to think hes one of the dumbest coaches in the league... Ben covers a lot of his dumb snafus...

@sdbacker80 said:

Yeah I got this yesterday from a friend.  Lions fan btw 

That's not even remotely funny to me... I think Baker has taken enough shit from the ignorant public...

@texasag1969 said:

I think Baker could even overthrow Putin at this point.?

Yeah I got this yesterday from a friend.  Lions fan btw 

Man coverage align pre-snap

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When you get the C1-Rat, the safety has outside leverage on Juice and the corner has him low and inside.    You can go elsewhere but it's dependent on 2 things.

- Your pass pro holding up

- Your receivers eating up cushion on DB's playing very high and then breaking back down the route stem.

Chiefs corners were playing high all night. No double moves, nothing vertical.  Working from the top down.

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Our receivers didn't re-win routes with positioning.  At least, on the outside they didn't.  Instead, trying to win vertical, they just ended up squeezing themselves to the bounds giving the corners an easy life.   What's worse is that pressure arrived.  Baker did an Ok job rolling away from this.   But notice where Schwartz is at the top of this still - he's at the 20 and flying upfield.  

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It isn't until the 9 yard line that Anthony breaks this and works back to his QB.  But by then it's too late and Baker has already decided to roll and throw away.   A good decision by him because at this point you really can't count on your WR winning back down the steam while you have Dline closing in on you. Ball has to be out one way or the other.    This is just an example of the "feel" Schwartz needs to work on.  When you eat up that much cushion and drive a DB upfield and the ball isn't out, you need to work back down and give your QB a target to the short side of the field.   Yes, yes, yes... I know the Old Classico is man to the boundary works up the field, but that's more of a guideline than a rule.

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Another man align look KC showed pre-snap.   Have to take your tips from the safety play. 

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In order to combat man coverage, Stef dials up a rub design from the #2 (DPJ) and #3.   That switch creates a natural pick on the DB's.  So you won't get any clean contact, most especially on the delay man (Schwartz).   The boundary safety has declared, and is stepping down to pick up his assignment low.    This is an example of facing a single high safety who isn't playing middle field.  

What amounts to a slot fade, except instead of running that from the #2, Schwartz is running it from the inside move receiver position (#3)

The beautiful part about this design is how badly that single high safety is fucked.  He has to make a decision one way or the other, but because of both his depth and alignment, both of these routes downfield are viable.    So at this point, you're reading him, but it really doesn't matter... Like I said - he's iced.  Even if he is just outside the hash like DPJ it doesn't matter.  He's still 10 yards high on him and the corner playing DPJ has lost the route inside.    WAY too much space to play with there.   

And yes, that's Baker with a pretty damn clean pocket I might add.

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Baker see's the safety flip his hips inside, again... not like it matters, and squares his shoulders to attack this slot fade from Schwartz.  But this is where I put things on the rookie when they're deserved.  Instead of just carrying this upfield and slowly widening just outside the numbers, Schwartz breaks this 3 steps out to shake the corner and back up.   It's too much, just too much overplay on the route when you were winning by a step and opening that step because of the play design and your natural speed.    Baker has started his wind-up here.

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Schwartz recovers from his break on the out, but it's late.  The ball is 6 yards deep and in the end-zone where Baker expected his WR to be.   It's asking a lot of a rookie receiver who came from a team like Auburn...  You don't have NFL quality position coaches and you play in a run-heavy offense with a QB like Bo-Nix who was extremely limited in his abilities.  Likely poorly coached, which isn't helping any situation.  But this is a homerun ball that, while I don't know if it quite connects if the route is ran better, would have had a much better shot at being 6 points if the rookie was more polished coming into the league.

This is honestly where our receiver room, most importantly Schwartz, needs the most work.     

He's sort of the secret superstar this off-season.  He has elite speed, and I do mean elite.   There's a reason he was a top 100 pick and this coaching staff wants to use his god-given abilities but he needs to become a more well rounded player as opposed to just an athlete who previously just won with being "only" fast.  In order to threaten taking the top off, you need to win in a variety of ways.

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That HAVING been said, I can't absolve Baker completely.   Because while this route is on the rookie Schwartz, and it's a fine read... remember where I said there was even more space to work with on that DPJ post?

This is how you win with a post against single high.   I mentioned this briefly when I broke down that INT Baker threw against GB to the single high safety that was MOTFC. You can beat single high depending on that safety alignment and depth.    If Tyrann is planted between those hashes and lower onto DPJ then you don't throw this.   But like I said, it was incredibly bad positioning that the concept dialed could have exploited that to Bakers content.   While the read to throw to Schwartz was fine, the decision to NOT take DPJ on the deep post/over is almost criminal.  This was dealers choice and that post throw has a much higher percentage of being a TD.

I'm positive Baker saw this in film review and remembered it.  It might help to explain a couple of his throws down the line.  Like what I just referenced above - against GB.  He read single high, but didn't process leverage and depth before uncorking a shot that should have gone to Higgins on the deep over.

I'm not trying to piling on Mayfield, but even when looking for things our skill players need to improve upon, Bakers (in)decision making still grabs my attention.

And I said it during the tail end of the season, this is your proof - neither position group, QB or WR, was so dominant that it could mask the short-comings of the other.

@sdbacker80 said:

I think we get a return.  He has a one year deal- no one gets strapped with a long term contract.   
 

This certainly isn’t a Brock O situation. 
 

but yeah I agree he is what he is…average but the potential to be good in a perfect setup. 

I definitely agree. If Carson Wentz got a 2nd that turned into a first, there would be no reason as of today that the Browns should expect to take anything less. On top of that to your point, unlike Wentz money is only tied to the dude for one season. I think that sort of trade is very attainable, but I'm not sure what team would field the offer.

@tiamat63 said:

5th year option is fully guaranteed.  Nobody is going to take Baker in a trade without us giving up insane draft capital.    

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible for Baker to improve.  But when I watch film I deal with what I'm given, a bit of projection based on coaching and effort, but also look to see if high level traits are being flashed (at minimum)  Usually that's my criteria for evaluating draft prospects and rookies.  Baker is a 4th year QB making the same mistakes he did as a second year QB.  What I'm saying is - I have severe doubts, and I've seen little to nothing making me believe it will improve.

I think we get a return.  He has a one year deal- no one gets strapped with a long term contract.   
 

This certainly isn’t a Brock O situation. 
 

but yeah I agree he is what he is…average but the potential to be good in a perfect setup. 

@jrb12711 said:

And the bold part is exactly where I'm at. A healthy Mayfield had this Browns team a few plays away from an AFC championship game. I very much overall agree with you, but I trust this front office to be aggressive in opportunities should they become available for the QB position. To say it a different way-I'd MUCH, much rather be in a Titans situation (be very good but fall short) with a dude like Mayfield than the absolute shit-show of all of the 2010's. Rodgers and Wilson aren't walking through the door, so Mayfield is the best option for 2022 to God willing play at this level.

Which, funny enough about the 2010's I got the chance to speak with Brian Hoyer at Disney this past weekend. I wasn't going to bother him with his kids but dude was literally standing outside the restroom while I was also waiting for our wives to come out. It was like the 4th time I was right next to the guy to include riding a few rides in their same group. Super, super nice guy- all I said was "Manziel screwed so much up" he just chuckled and said "yeah man he did". 

LOL, in a similar vein...  at my niece's wedding... you know- the Bridal party takes off for a couple of hours for pictures, and you have a lot of dead time until the reception.  So we're at the local watering hole, and I'm taking a picture of a Dolphins jersey "Trusnick" up on the wall.  Wife asks me why?  You trivia buffs may remember Jason stopped by for a cup of coffee at linebacker with the Browns.  FWIW, Jason is Sarah's cousin.  He also played special teams for the Dolphins for several seasons. AND he was at Sarah's reception. BTW, he also was on those Dolphins teams when the Richie Incognito brouhaha went down.  You don't know HOW bad I wanted to ask him for the inside dope of what went down then.  But I decided this isn't the place to start asking pointed questions.     

@tiamat63 said:

Jimmy G - Was carried, hasn't been back.  Team is forced to carry his corpse to the finish line, which is why the drafted his replacement.  - Lost

Goff - Fell off a cliff when defenses got hip to the scheme.  Like Jimmy G, carried by the talent around him.  He was so bad LA was willing to mortgage huge future draft capital to get rid of him and his salary.  - Lost

Foles - Cinderella story.   Is an average to below-average QB.  Philly has limped along since. - Won

Cam - spectacular 2015 season which was sandwiched between years of up and down play including post season blunders.  - Lost

Joe - Like Foles, played well over his head along with having talent around him and favorable matchups. - won

Colin - Imploded in the entire 1st half of that superbowl.  Scrambled his ass off in the 2nd half then fell short.  When defenses started seeing his eye patterns, he started falling apart. - Lost

Rexy - Founder of the "Fuck it, I'm throwing deep" club...   Was fortunate enough to play during a stretch of remarkable Chicago defense in an NFC that had a bit of a "down" period.   Never went back and never sniffed stats indicative of a playoff worthy QB who actually leads his team as the focal point of the offense. - Lost

Building a team so dominant at so many different positions and winning a Superbowl is as rare as finding top-tier signal callers who can lead the charge.

Can you build a competitive team and help turn around a 20 year stretch of depressing losing culture? Absolutely.    Which is what the Browns should be focused on if no franchise QB presents himself.    It has long been mentioned on this board, this team would be at least competitive, entertaining and prideful to watch if they got slightly-above average QB play along with a strong supporting cast.   At least at that point you can make yourself a wild-card team and continue building said culture of winning games and coaching stability.

And the bold part is exactly where I'm at. A healthy Mayfield had this Browns team a few plays away from an AFC championship game. I very much overall agree with you, but I trust this front office to be aggressive in opportunities should they become available for the QB position. To say it a different way-I'd MUCH, much rather be in a Titans situation (be very good but fall short) with a dude like Mayfield than the absolute shit-show of all of the 2010's. Rodgers and Wilson aren't walking through the door, so Mayfield is the best option for 2022 to God willing play at this level.

Which, funny enough about the 2010's I got the chance to speak with Brian Hoyer at Disney this past weekend. I wasn't going to bother him with his kids but dude was literally standing outside the restroom while I was also waiting for our wives to come out. It was like the 4th time I was right next to the guy to include riding a few rides in their same group. Super, super nice guy- all I said was "Manziel screwed so much up" he just chuckled and said "yeah man he did". 

@orion said:

Glad you mentioned that.  I thought it but forgot to put it in my earlier comment.  There's a little bunch of quite good QB's in the league.  It's not just one or two lucky teams.  But if you don't have one of the upper tier QB's, then consistent winning is just that much harder for ya.  The Titans are really quite good.  But they don't have the passing game to compete in shoot-outs.  

Every so often a team will sneak away with a SuperBowl win....like Frank Ryan and the Browns did in '64.  (a stellar game by Ryan, stellar game by the D, and Jim Brown wound up getting his 100 yards)  But they were the underdog, and they weren't able to repeat.  Now when Otto Graham was the QB, that was a different story.  They were constantly competing for the Championship.  -  It's always been all about the QB.

If you don't have a top tier QB, then you must keep looking for one.  Draft one every year.  Even if it's a 6th round tall drink of water with a strong arm that plays at Bumfuck State.  Keep diggin'.

Agree on all points: If you don't have a top tier QB, you better get one if you plan on competing for a ring.  Dilfer and Brad Johnson are definitely  the exceptions, especially now-a-days even compared to when they won their rings. And agree, if you don't have one, keep diggin' every year until you find one.