@orion said:

If that's the case, then we DO have a healthy QB that knows the system well, that we pay $6 mil to be the backup.  So, that's either NOT the case, or it IS the case but Keenum isn't as good as an injured Baker...in which case Case's agent got him a great deal.

Keenum is... No thanks...

@nickers said:

Well.. It's kind of hard to be consistently accurate when you have basically one arm tied to your side...

If that's the case, then we DO have a healthy QB that knows the system well, that we pay $6 mil to be the backup.  So, that's either NOT the case, or it IS the case but Keenum isn't as good as an injured Baker...in which case Case's agent got him a great deal.

@gumby73 said:

?   ?  Yeah !  I had to ...

                                                    ""   "'

Mayfield's 4th season.. 10 games in

One striking omission is the state of the game that Baker is playing compared to Roger's over the same span of years (1st 4): Good QBs put up much better #'s than Baker here and now, including Rogers. Baker is hovering around 22nd - 26th in all major passing stats in the here and now. That is who he is. Comparing his stats to Roger's 1st four years is poppycock. Baker is ringing in at about 25th in today's conditions You want him paid like a top 5 QB? 

@orion said:

I just call 'em as I see 'em.  And there have been multiple games this season where the QB position had hurt us.  Now, we don't say that nearly as much with Baker as we have with any of the other QB's this century...but sometimes his accuracy is alarming.  Not as bad as Derick Anderson....but.... 

Well.. It's kind of hard to be consistently accurate when you have basically one arm tied to your side...

@nickers said:

I would be okay with the $25-$30 mill range for Mayfield with incentives and escalators that are performance driven.. So to speak..

I think Baker and bride can get by on that...... especially with his other part time jobs.     

@dutch-oven said:

All of this is true, but Flacco was due a contract extension right after he helped win a Super Bowl.

I don't see how Baker has anything resembling that type of leverage. If I was the Browns, I'd aim to sign him to a Tannehill-type extension. 

I would be okay with the $25-$30 mill range for Mayfield with incentives and escalators that are performance driven.. So to speak..

@unsympathetic said:

Flacco's years at the "peak" of his deal [>10% of cap] started in 2014 and ended in... 2018.  During his entire thanks-for-that-SB contract, they won 1 playoff game - his first year after the contract, 2014, vs PIT.  2014 lost the second and 2018 which you may call Lamar's first season.. lost the first. Zero playoff appearances in between.  Argue about the 10,11% area but the 14-15% years of 2016-2018 are inexcusable.  The part that can be tough to properly analyze/understand is that the contracts ramp up in % of cap because the contract value increases over time..

The drafting of the Ravens was, as always, really good -- and yet no playoff appearances that entire time because they kept not being able to resign anyone.  They even drafted long-time contributors in the 5th [Judon] and 6th [Chuck Clark] rounds.

All of this is true, but Flacco was due a contract extension right after he helped win a Super Bowl.

I don't see how Baker has anything resembling that type of leverage. If I was the Browns, I'd aim to sign him to a Tannehill-type extension. 

I totally agree with SdBacker's critique of Baker's limitations, but if he signs a moderate contract extension, you won't have to make cuts all over the place to afford it. In a perfect world I'd like an upgrade over Baker, but that seems pretty unlikely. Get him healthy, get him signed to a mid-level starting QB extension, and fix the problems around him.

I just don't see it happening for the Browns this season. Too many injuries and too many issues with the team right now. The foundation, though, is here for success.

@flugel said:

Cap health relies heavily on how well you draft

Flacco's years at the "peak" of his deal [>10% of cap] started in 2014 and ended in... 2018.  During his entire thanks-for-that-SB contract, they won 1 playoff game - his first year after the contract, 2014, vs PIT.  2014 lost the second and 2018 which you may call Lamar's first season.. lost the first. Zero playoff appearances in between.  Argue about the 10,11% area but the 14-15% years of 2016-2018 are inexcusable.  The part that can be tough to properly analyze/understand is that the contracts ramp up in % of cap because the contract value increases over time..

The drafting of the Ravens was, as always, really good -- and yet no playoff appearances that entire time because they kept not being able to resign anyone.  They even drafted long-time contributors in the 5th [Judon] and 6th [Chuck Clark] rounds.

@unsympathetic said:

And if you're willing to realize that Mayfield isn't Mahomes... then you can't pay him like Mahomes!  For Baker to succeed, he needs $$ available to be spent on talented players at other positions.  Look at the KC DB's.. outside of Mathieu that's the result of dumpster diving.

Flacco is actually a great example.. He got paid as though he himself was "the" reason for success even though everyone knew he was the beneficiary of a generational defense which they then couldn't keep/restock.. and paying Flacco torpedoed Ravens every season thereafter until his salary was off their books.  Is that what Baker fanbois sincerely want - because that's exactly what we're going to get if Baker's contract is a similar % of the cap.

Don't look or think about absolute dollars.. look at % of the cap.

The response to this is therefore discussion of the salary range for him.. because the real question isn't "do you want Baker or not" it's "Do you want Baker and a top FA IDL next to Garrett or just Baker and we'll let Garrett get triple-teamed".  It's a salary cap question, not something else which moves this into an emotional tirade.

Kelce and T. Hill are elite.  Kelce was elite before Mahomes started; and shouldn't we also acknowledge Alex Smith QB'd KC to the playoffs? 

Remember the concerns in Minnesota about Kirk Cousins in terms of whether he was worth the contract commitment?  I saw that his ratings have improved quite a bit in the last 2 years.  One would have to believe the addition of Jefferson to the WR Corps in the 2020 draft was helpful right?  

Before last year, Diggs wanted out of that offense Stefanski was coordinating while many of their fans were convincing themselves they just had the wrong QB.  Diggs went to Buffalo. Stefanski came to Cleveland; and Cousins improved to the 4th highest passer rating in the NFC at 105 (only behind Rodgers, Brees and Wilson) with 35 TD 13 INT 4264 YDS 67.6 comp%.

Meanwhile Stefanski came here and coached us to 11-5 and slapped Pittsburgh upside the head with 48 points in a playoff W at Pittsburgh.  It's not just the players needed but it's also the system compatibility.  Last year, Baker actually had an ideal TD:INT ratio of 26 TD to 8 INT when the players around him were healthy up front and on the perimeter.  It was a nice change for him.  Our defense was also a lot better at getting turnovers; and putting our offense in good opportunities for points.  A lot of that collapsed this year and some of that has to do with the high volume of injuries fair or not.  Have we always had a winning % over .500 with the volume of injuries this team has tried to play through this year?   

To answer your question, Cap health relies heavily on how well you draft.  When we didn't draft well from 1999 until the year we drafted MG, we overpaid on a ton of FAs that didn't help us.  Now with the rookie salary caps, I think we can afford to offer Baker a keeper contract here.

@gunnergatski said:

The only intelligent commentary here has come from SDbacker and Zombo and yes I know how crazy that statement sounds.

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

The problem Gunner is some Baker Fan Boys around here take any legit criticism of Baker as "hate".  That's me\us just objectively looking at how Beat Up Baker has played the last couple games.  Is a 53 qbr acceptable to you? Well,, is sure as hell isn't to me.. Not if you're thinking we're somehow going to magically be able to beat the Ravens Sunday night with that level of QB  play.  Did you watch any of the Thanksgiving Day games? Shit, old Dandy Andy Dalton put on a better performance than Baker has the last two games. Prescott and Carr were playing how Baker used to be able to play before he got crippled.  

So watch the Ratbirds stack eight in the box to shut down Chubb and Hunt- and dare Baker to beat them with his arm. Lotsa luck.  

Flacco is actually a great example.. He got paid as though he himself was "the" reason for success even though everyone knew he was the beneficiary of a generational defense which they then couldn't keep/restock.. and paying Flacco torpedoed Ravens every season thereafter until his salary was off their books.  Is that what Baker fanbois sincerely want - because that's exactly what we're going to get if Baker's contract is a similar % of the cap.

Don't look or think about absolute dollars.. look at % of the cap.

The response to this is therefore discussion of the salary range for him.. because the real question isn't "do you want Baker or not" it's "Do you want Baker and a top FA IDL next to Garrett or just Baker and we'll let Garrett get triple-teamed".  It's a salary cap question, not something else which moves this into an emotional tirade.

@gunnergatski said:

The only intelligent commentary here has come from SDbacker and Zombo and yes I know how crazy that statement sounds.

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

Like I said and will reiterate... It seems like many want Baker to fail because he does not measure up to being their idea of a QB.. I.E. Mahomes, P.Manning, Brady..... Well I got news for some of these folks... I got to witness Mike Phipps and Paul McDonald... Who were just God awful at the position.. both were big , strong QB's that possessed strong arms.. Neither could hit the side of a barn... Bill Nelsen was great.. But Pittsburgh's O line ruined his knees by the time he made it to our Roster.. He was a lot like Carson Palmer in some ways.. Not every QB can be Mahomes/Elite... I mean hell.. Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl... Even garbage like Doug Williams won a ring... So theres more than one road to Mecca...

So many of you are so quick to jump onto the bandwagon of hating Baker. You would rather tear down your own team to satisfy your urge to virtue signal and “fit in” than acknowledge the fact that this entire season, not just for the Browns, has been a shit show.

At the end of the day all that matters is our boys are in the thick of the AFC North title race.  This division is so tightly contested that any one of the four teams could run the table and take the division crown. This team has demonstrated some resilience, and now it’s football weather time in our neck of the woods.  Our team Is built from the ground up to make these sorts of late season, ground and pound close out runs. Health is the KEY!

@sdbacker80 said:

Quickly….

Year 4 his ability to decipher coverage and make quick decisions is not up to a standard of QB that will probably command upwards of 30-35M.   He holds onto the ball too long. He’s had problems with leaving clean pockets.

He’s a playaction QB but when placed outside of that fish bowl he struggles.  See our 5 wide empty backfield struggles. 

Hes struggled with throws outside of the hashes. 

Good one week bad the next…hallmark of being average.  The intangibles make him above average.  

Off the charts competitor…strong arm….2020 deep ball was stellar.

If your HC is a run-first oriented guy like he was in Minnesota - these are some reasons I think the empty backfield sets are a bad idea given where this team seems to be stuck on pause with right now:

1. When we've had a backup Guard playing RT while Wills has missed starts/shown no lateral mobility when he plays on the high ankle sprain.  Is there a better time to have a RB at least scraping/bumping 1 of the edges coming out of the backfield or just staying in and stepping up to pass pro on the side having the most trouble?  Another option is to remember that screen pass NE threw very effectively that the Browns could do if they had RB in the backfield.

2. The first argument to my thought in #1 is the no back formations are for the quick completions to the very reliable WRs that the QB trusts.  WONDERFUL!  That's awesome.  Who are those guys?  And how often are they available?  Anyone ever look at the who didn't practice and who was limited that did practice?  For all the OBJ nonsense, he missed training camp, practices as well as some starts at the last minute that surprised the coach with the game plan?  Football is a sport where you play like you practice/prepare.  Start reading those injury lists posted every week of who practices and who doesn't.  It's taken a toll on the chemistry, consistency and continuity of the passing game.  We all see Jarvis Landry hasn't been healthy enough to give us the same caliber of consistency he did over his 1st 3 years with this team.  Last week, he got injured again to the point he couldn't finish the game - the same week he said he wanted to be used more right?  Even DPJ's  has been banged up in recent weeks. And YES, we also use some TEs in that formation where 1 or 2 may have to help in pass pro or at least chip on the edge.  None of this has me thinking we have perimeter matchups to exploit in the passing game at all.  

3. Anyone remember the NYJ game last year when we lost our entire starting WR group to COVID on the Thurs/Fri before the game?  That is what our passing attack has felt like this year when we have the same sum of WRs available capable of winning their matchups.  And THAT was a team who won 11 regular season games and a playoff game.  Ironically, when national media guys got a hold of our playoff loss to the Chiefs - they didn't want to acknowledge Higgins' fumble at the goal line became a gift wrapped touchback for KC. And why was that?  It was WAY too inconvenient to their agenda of proving their thesis that Baker is not capable of getting the Browns to a Conference Championship Game.  They didn't want people remembering a pass that should have been a go-ahead TD in lieu of reminding us about Baker's only INT of the game at the end.  Keep in mind, Higgins wasn't a regular starter and the problem wasn't the pitch or the catch.  The problem was Higgins didn't secure the football at a time it needed to be secured the most.  Those are the little things that separate winning and losing as well as starting vrs filling in for starter.  

4. Last, but not least, why are we watching Baker week after week functioning at 60% of his performance capability when we have an experienced and reliable Stefanski product from the Vikes capable of performing better than that right now?   This situation is the main reason Keenum is here.  The more that injury continues to get aggravated the more our offense gets handcuffed IMO.

@hoorta said:

 Yeah Kev, you can overrule the medical staff if in your best judgement Baker isn't ready to play. 

Lions game-tape tussles.. 

a) Detroit finally scores a TD 2 minutes left in 3rd, to get score to 13-7 (Swift 58 yrd. TD)

b. ) (next Browns set) with just over a minute left in the 3rd.. Baker's bruised heel, (foot) gets stepped on.. (3 & out.... even i thought Bake could not protect himself.. *Stef chance 1?)

c.) Keenum warms up, Bakes in blue tent (who's doc cleared his return ? )

d. ) (browns next set) Baker is forced to take off out of a murky pocket, to gain 7 yards on a scramble his very next procession early 4th.. (now what?)

e.)  Baker than throws a tipped pick by Anzalone (credit his back petal vert to get to it)..  (*Stef's 2nd chance?) @tiamat63 good play to look at?. if Baker takes some off to get ball over Anz? It looks like a pick? Or Landry walks into a creaming? (nfl highlight tape 5:52) your appreciated DB thoughts?

f.)  Lions kick FG to make score 13-10....Stef looks to decide to protect Bake/ and closed out game by running the rock..(Batman needed no Robin)

me thinks, Stef had 2 solid chances to over rule his med staff... (injury to poor play)

after viewing all 22 Baker?  Baker's healing injuries late in games, leaves me nervous of seeing any 4th quarter heroics.. staying tuned

Go rag-doll the Rat-birds !

Happy Thanksgiving !   

@hoorta said:

even suggesting Mayfield is hurt, not playing well and should sit for a game or two. 

And that's how Stef would've had to frame it, had he replaced him with Keenum a couple of weeks ago.  

@orion said:

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

Well there's already a controversy brewing among the fans... (Fan Sided even had an OP-ED to that effect)  I already caught grief in one of the other Facebook Browns Forums for even suggesting Mayfield is hurt, not playing well and should sit for a game or two.  

What bench our hero?  

@orion said:

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

If we are touting Baker as a great leader/competitor he may be pissed but he would come back sharp and ready to go the next week and squash the controversy talk on the field. 

@hoorta said:

FWIW, NFL starters get benched on a regular basis for lousy play. 

Sure, but that is in fact what Stef would be saying by benching him....that he's playing lousy.  Which would have a ripple affect.  Baker would be pissed....and another QB controversy would arise with the fans, media, and probably among 'some' players.  Causality (as would be said in astrophysics)  

Zombo said:

We won a tough, ugly game, and our quarterback gutted it out, because it's his job.

If you're not with him when he's suffering, don't be jumping back on his bandwagon when he catches fire like he did last year.

I'm so impressed with him gutting out that win, that I'd re-sign him this week and tell the the media and the fickle fans to go fuck themselves.

Z

Thanks...I needed that....

@orion said:

Yes.  If he's the starter, and the medical staff tells the coach that he can play, then the coach has to play him.  Otherwise, he would be benching the starter.

FWIW, NFL starters get benched on a regular basis for lousy play.  So he's medically cleared to play? Whoopee!!! I'll posit a 53 qbr (against the Lions) is third string backup territory.  Quote the Baker, nevermore... "I sucked"... Thank you Baker for telling us what we already knew.