@vaportrail said:

I have no issues with armed security guards, but really how much of your school budget are you going to dedicate to protecting against a mass shooter? How proficient should they be and how much range time are you paying for? 

If you're doing a mass shooting, you know that if you pop the security guard, then you'll have free reign to blast whomever you want afterwards until the cops show up. 

Most schools where I live already have School Resource Officers [SRO's] so I think they are good there. I'm talking vast buildings like malls that should have multiple armed security guards patrolling the building. Most the malls I've been to have multiple flashlight cops, why not trade that flashlight for a sidearm? It's only a bandaid but bandaids are there to stop the bleeding until the problem is corrected.

edit: Some hospitals around me have their own police, squad cars and everything. Maybe large complexes should think about trending in that direction. 

@neo said:

Why is nobody mentioning the use of ARMED SECURITY GUARDS? If police response time is an issue why rely on some random citizen and not someone who is required to train and qualify every so often?

I have no issues with armed security guards, but really how much of your school budget are you going to dedicate to protecting against a mass shooter? How proficient should they be and how much range time are you paying for? 

If you're doing a mass shooting, you know that if you pop the security guard, then you'll have free reign to blast whomever you want afterwards until the cops show up. 

@mld-woody said:

The bill that passed was symbolic and damn near nothing.

The government now has legislation to take away the constitutional rights of someone who has never committed a crime. That's far worse than "damn near nothing." Surely, this measure will be as effective stopping mass shootings as the TSA is at stopping terrorist attacks. lol, I guess we agree on its efficacy towards reducing gun violence. 

@mld-woody said:

Still isn't addressing the core issue. Better than joe blow that has no idea what he's really doing, sure, but it's just a nicer bandaid. 

The core issue is something that cannot be addressed overnight. But this is one bandaid that I can live with and I think would make an immediate impact. I could never understand why mall security were never armed to begin with. I always see them chasing after shoplifters, I wouldn't do that unarmed. At least not in today's world.

@mld-woody said:

ODS

@calfoxwc said:

OMG. Woody posted a valid, terribly simplistic analogy. Yes, in principle, you want to address the cause, not just the symptom.

    But, politics get in the way. False strictly political claims about what the cause is, keeps a solution from being worked on. These young people mass murders have apparently tripled from 2011 to 2014.

********************************

https://craftsurvive.com › ?p=329

Mass shootings have tripled in America since 2011 — mass shootings are defined as an act of violence perpetuated by a group or a single person with the intention to cause voilence by gun, ... Between 2011 and 2014 mass shootings tripled, with a mass shooting occuring, roughly every 60 days. These numbers are terrifying…but it gets worst.

********************************

    So, just the facts:

 

Who was president during those three years?

 

Buttock ObaMao Commie.

 

Why is that important?

 

Fact: ObaMao authorized a school/student leniency program.

***********************************

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com › articles › 2018 › 02 › 28 › obama_administration_school_discipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

Behind Cruz's Florida Rampage, Obama's School-Leniency Policy

Their inaction reflects the Broward department's embrace of the school district's approach to student crime. Even in response to a major crime scene, Sheriff Israel agreed to defer to school officials when "feasible" and employ "the least punitive means of discipline" against the perpetrators.. The Broward school board also revised agreements between the district and the school ...

https://www.breitbart.com › politics › 2018 › 04 › 25 › like-common-core-obamas-school-leniency-policy-for-minorities-has-backfired

Like Common Core, Obama's School Leniency Policy for Minorities Has ...

Apr 25, 2018Obama-era federal education policy aimed at shrinking the achievement gap between white and minority students has backfired as well. Recently released scores of fourth graders in the United States on an international measure of reading skills showed overall decline of U.S. students, with the lowest-performing students declining the most.

**********************************************

So, for everyone who just wants to "DO SOMETHING" - stop that leniency/no serious consequences program.

 

Again and again - there were legit WARNING SIGNS that were ignored about certain young people who were having problems. Far more people are murdered with knives than  guns.

 

  ObaMao is responsible for that policy of no serious consequences.

Some students have lashed out in violence, with no guns involved.

 

   His program enabled some students with mental issues to act out, since they were protected from consequences.

 

   The "banning thing" is stupid. Will not ever solve anything.

 

Look around. No consequences for blm/antifa violence. No consequences for the colbert staffers doing what they did.

 

   Comey lied to congress, no consequences. Hunter biden - no consequences (yet).  No consequences for violence and theft in leftwing big cities. Of course crime skyrockets !

 

    Of course, kids who need help and don't get it - who need to pay for their minor crimes - will act out.

 

    And social media - can be just as much a double-edged sword as you can find nowadays.

 

   FACT: some mass shootings have NOT used a semi-auto rifle - a lot have. Meaning, the shootings will continue - banning anything only politically tries to get a "win" by pretending to treat the sympton.

 

   Politically going after maybe 180 million gun owners will not stop these murders on bit. I can't imagine anyone not understanding that, regardless of what they say.

 

 

 

ODS

@mld-woody said:

To address the core issue, not to just (hopefully) make it less secure when it continues to happen.

You're having quality issues in manufacturing. They're getting to the customer. You can implement better final inspection to help catch issues before they go out, and that's better then then getting out, but it isn't addressing the underlying cause. A better answer would be to correct whatever process is creating the quality issue. 

OMG. Woody posted a valid, terribly simplistic analogy. Yes, in principle, you want to address the cause, not just the symptom.

    But, politics get in the way. False strictly political claims about what the cause is, keeps a solution from being worked on. These young people mass murders have apparently tripled from 2011 to 2014.

********************************

https://craftsurvive.com › ?p=329

Mass shootings have tripled in America since 2011 — mass shootings are defined as an act of violence perpetuated by a group or a single person with the intention to cause voilence by gun, ... Between 2011 and 2014 mass shootings tripled, with a mass shooting occuring, roughly every 60 days. These numbers are terrifying…but it gets worst.

********************************

    So, just the facts:

 

Who was president during those three years?

 

Buttock ObaMao Commie.

 

Why is that important?

 

Fact: ObaMao authorized a school/student leniency program.

***********************************

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com › articles › 2018 › 02 › 28 › obama_administration_school_discipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

Behind Cruz's Florida Rampage, Obama's School-Leniency Policy

Their inaction reflects the Broward department's embrace of the school district's approach to student crime. Even in response to a major crime scene, Sheriff Israel agreed to defer to school officials when "feasible" and employ "the least punitive means of discipline" against the perpetrators.. The Broward school board also revised agreements between the district and the school ...

https://www.breitbart.com › politics › 2018 › 04 › 25 › like-common-core-obamas-school-leniency-policy-for-minorities-has-backfired

Like Common Core, Obama's School Leniency Policy for Minorities Has ...

Apr 25, 2018Obama-era federal education policy aimed at shrinking the achievement gap between white and minority students has backfired as well. Recently released scores of fourth graders in the United States on an international measure of reading skills showed overall decline of U.S. students, with the lowest-performing students declining the most.

**********************************************

So, for everyone who just wants to "DO SOMETHING" - stop that leniency/no serious consequences program.

 

Again and again - there were legit WARNING SIGNS that were ignored about certain young people who were having problems. Far more people are murdered with knives than  guns.

 

  ObaMao is responsible for that policy of no serious consequences.

Some students have lashed out in violence, with no guns involved.

 

   His program enabled some students with mental issues to act out, since they were protected from consequences.

 

   The "banning thing" is stupid. Will not ever solve anything.

 

Look around. No consequences for blm/antifa violence. No consequences for the colbert staffers doing what they did.

 

   Comey lied to congress, no consequences. Hunter biden - no consequences (yet).  No consequences for violence and theft in leftwing big cities. Of course crime skyrockets !

 

    Of course, kids who need help and don't get it - who need to pay for their minor crimes - will act out.

 

    And social media - can be just as much a double-edged sword as you can find nowadays.

 

   FACT: some mass shootings have NOT used a semi-auto rifle - a lot have. Meaning, the shootings will continue - banning anything only politically tries to get a "win" by pretending to treat the sympton.

 

   Politically going after maybe 180 million gun owners will not stop these murders on bit. I can't imagine anyone not understanding that, regardless of what they say.

 

 

 

@mld-woody said:

To address the core issue, not to just (hopefully) make it less secure when it continues to happen.You're having quality issues in manufacturing. They're getting to the customer. You can implement better final inspection to help catch issues before they go out, and that's better then then getting out, but it isn't addressing the underlying cause. A better answer would be to correct whatever process is creating the quality issue. 

Vote Democrats out, that will stop with the racism, hate crimes, stop teaching preschoolers sex, hire and maintain a well trained police department, get rid of liberal prosecutors that use no bail catch and release (except republicans), get rid of Soros judges who give light to no jail time, actually teach children things that will help them to excel in the real world, stop with the men can be women and women can be men etc...

@westside-steve said:

You did say something, anything right? Or am I mistaken?

WSS 

To address the core issue, not to just (hopefully) make it less secure when it continues to happen.

You're having quality issues in manufacturing. They're getting to the customer. You can implement better final inspection to help catch issues before they go out, and that's better then then getting out, but it isn't addressing the underlying cause. A better answer would be to correct whatever process is creating the quality issue. 

@mld-woody said:

Still isn't addressing the core issue. Better than joe blow that has no idea what he's really doing, sure, but it's just a nicer bandaid. 

You did say something, anything right? Or am I mistaken?

WSS 

@neo said:

Why is nobody mentioning the use of ARMED SECURITY GUARDS? If police response time is an issue why rely on some random citizen and not someone who is required to train and qualify every so often?

Still isn't addressing the core issue. Better than joe blow that has no idea what he's really doing, sure, but it's just a nicer bandaid. 

@neo said:

Why is nobody mentioning the use of ARMED SECURITY GUARDS? If police response time is an issue why rely on some random citizen and not someone who is required to train and qualify every so often?

Because the Democrats want only them the government to have guns...it's easier to enslave the population.

@mld-woody said:

A good guy with a gun making it so only 3 people die isn't Dissolution of the underlying problem. 

Why is nobody mentioning the use of ARMED SECURITY GUARDS? If police response time is an issue why rely on some random citizen and not someone who is required to train and qualify every so often?

@mld-woody said:

I think the belief that the best (only) protection from someone with a gun is more guns is getting to a wild west scenario, yes. And I imagine most developed countries would agree with me. As a country we're just mentally conditioned to think so far one way that imagining the opposite, guns not being readily available everywhere, is inconceivable. 

Can an individual's safety not fall somewhere in the middle? I treat keeping a gun at home for self defense and carrying a gun around at all times differently. Not to mention there are means of defense that aren't guns. But, again, none of this is actually solving the issue. It's rolling over and saying there will always be way too many guns and too much fun violence so all we can do is send ourselves and keep it one step below shootouts in the streets (take that last comment however you like). 

The government is in a position to help ensure the safety of it's people. Just like how you don't test all the meat you buy for bacteria. Sure, that can be cops and other means, but again, that isn't solving the real issue. It isn't necessarily preventing gun violence, it's just (in some cases) making it less deadly when it occurs.

My four was to solve a problem were Absolution, Resolution, Solution, and Dissolution. I'm shooting for dissolution, or something close to it. 

A good guy with a gun making it so only 3 people die isn't Dissolution of the underlying problem. 

I want actions the reduce the means or motivation of someone to commit gun violence. Not giving up and saying that is impossible so we should just arm everyone, only (hopefully) reducing the violence once it has already started. 

Again, this whole conversation is really baffling to me (not necessarily you but in general). How we can be the only developed country with this problem and then still have people in this country not wanting to improve it. 

The bill that passed was symbolic and damn near nothing. And even that was fought by the NRA and most conservative members of Congress. A drop in the bucket for school mental health programs and expanded background checks on those under 21 is, by definition, not nothing, but it is barely something. It's just enough to say something was done but too little to make an impact allowing for conservatives to say it didn't work and we shouldn't do any more once the next mass shooting happens 

Go live in one of them...problem solved!

@vaportrail said:

Between your comments referring to the country as "the wild west" and your comments on open carry, I think it's a fair interpretation. If you don't think that a person's safety should come down to a weapon they are carrying, then is it unfair of me to assume that you think that responsibility falls entirely to the state? Let me know where I'm misrepresenting your view. 

IIRC, red flag laws were the most realistic of the ideas you had. And you're being completely disingenuous when you say "nothing" is being done, considering both houses of congress passed a bill expanding red flag seizures last month. 

I think the belief that the best (only) protection from someone with a gun is more guns is getting to a wild west scenario, yes. And I imagine most developed countries would agree with me. As a country we're just mentally conditioned to think so far one way that imagining the opposite, guns not being readily available everywhere, is inconceivable. 

Can an individual's safety not fall somewhere in the middle? I treat keeping a gun at home for self defense and carrying a gun around at all times differently. Not to mention there are means of defense that aren't guns. But, again, none of this is actually solving the issue. It's rolling over and saying there will always be way too many guns and too much fun violence so all we can do is send ourselves and keep it one step below shootouts in the streets (take that last comment however you like). 

The government is in a position to help ensure the safety of it's people. Just like how you don't test all the meat you buy for bacteria. Sure, that can be cops and other means, but again, that isn't solving the real issue. It isn't necessarily preventing gun violence, it's just (in some cases) making it less deadly when it occurs.

My four was to solve a problem were Absolution, Resolution, Solution, and Dissolution. I'm shooting for dissolution, or something close to it. 

A good guy with a gun making it so only 3 people die isn't Dissolution of the underlying problem. 

I want actions the reduce the means or motivation of someone to commit gun violence. Not giving up and saying that is impossible so we should just arm everyone, only (hopefully) reducing the violence once it has already started. 

Again, this whole conversation is really baffling to me (not necessarily you but in general). How we can be the only developed country with this problem and then still have people in this country not wanting to improve it. 

The bill that passed was symbolic and damn near nothing. And even that was fought by the NRA and most conservative members of Congress. A drop in the bucket for school mental health programs and expanded background checks on those under 21 is, by definition, not nothing, but it is barely something. It's just enough to say something was done but too little to make an impact allowing for conservatives to say it didn't work and we shouldn't do any more once the next mass shooting happens 

@canton-dawg said:

Maybe you can throw out some suggestions about drug overdose deaths in this country too?

like, woodpecker FEEEEEEELLLLLS that all illegals "just want a better life"....

while some of them rape, torture, murder, and traffic in fentanyl and other illegal drugs.........

oh, and they use illlegally owned guns in crimes, too.

All the incessant pecking from woodpeckersucker, and not one peck about illegals' crimes.

@mld-woody said:

I never once said my intentions were for the "the government to protect me from everything and everyone who is violent". Don't start pulling a Steve on me here. 

Between your comments referring to the country as "the wild west" and your comments on open carry, I think it's a fair interpretation. If you don't think that a person's safety should come down to a weapon they are carrying, then is it unfair of me to assume that you think that responsibility falls entirely to the state? Let me know where I'm misrepresenting your view. 

@mld-woody said:

I posted about the four ways to solve a problem.

IIRC, red flag laws were the most realistic of the ideas you had. And you're being completely disingenuous when you say "nothing" is being done, considering both houses of congress passed a bill expanding red flag seizures last month. 

@mld-woody said:

I'm not going to celebrate a punch to the gut because it wasn't a punch to the face.

I never once said my intentions were for the "the government to protect me from everything and everyone who is violent". Don't start pulling a Steve on me here. 

Yes, there are a lot of fucked up stats regarding cops. I agree.

Arming people and turning the country into the metaphorical wild west isn't a solution and that's where we differ. It's hardly a bandaid. I posted about the four ways to solve a problem. Arming everyone so that there's hopefully a competent "good guy with a gun" around when someone starts shooting so a handful of people die instead of over a dozen isn't a solution. It's goddamn pathetic that's where we're at as a country. 

I'm not "upset" people are happy with this guy. I'm disappointed, exhausted, and angry at our whole system and state of affairs regarding gun violence in this country. I'm upset the collective mindset of so many is to chalk this up as a "win". This isn't as simple as just being happy this guy did a good thing. There is a much, much bigger picture and systemic issue at play. 

I'd like the government to do something, anything, to make a dent in this problem. From mass shootings in schools to inner city gang violence. But we do nothing. One party is incompetent (or wants to milk the issue for funds) and the other party is making it worse as they collect gun lobby money. It's fucking sad. 

I'm not even talking going full Australia. Just doing anything.

And this whole "there's too many guns so why bother" attitude is so fucking defeatist. No different than the people that say we shouldn't bother to try and do anything about climate change. They're both killing, one is more obvious, but we do nothing with both (for similar reasons). 

Maybe you can throw out some suggestions about drug overdose deaths in this country too?

it doesn't get the social media identify going.

@mld-woody said:

I'm not going to celebrate a punch to the gut because it wasn't a punch to the face.

and yet, all that rant and you FEEL the issue, but you do not have any experiences in life to qualify your feelings.

"there's a problem, let's get the guns away from people" spews out of your every feeble attempt to talk intelligently on this issue.

   "doing something" is stupid. Doing something that will legitimately work to solve the problem, if possible, would be good.

   But, you don't care - you just want to DO ....right.

It isn't about guns. It's about mental illness, etc - and maybe also THC per scientific reports -

"legalize pot" "legalize other hard drugs", keep young people out of jail and consequences" blah blah blah.

   liberals have al lthe wrong answers, and young liberals who don't know anything about much of anything vent.

just, stupid.

@mld-woody said:

I'm not going to celebrate a punch to the gut because it wasn't a punch to the face.

I never once said my intentions were for the "the government to protect me from everything and everyone who is violent". Don't start pulling a Steve on me here. 

Yes, there are a lot of fucked up stats regarding cops. I agree.

Arming people and turning the country into the metaphorical wild west isn't a solution and that's where we differ. It's hardly a bandaid. I posted about the four ways to solve a problem. Arming everyone so that there's hopefully a competent "good guy with a gun" around when someone starts shooting so a handful of people die instead of over a dozen isn't a solution. It's goddamn pathetic that's where we're at as a country. 

I'm not "upset" people are happy with this guy. I'm disappointed, exhausted, and angry at our whole system and state of affairs regarding gun violence in this country. I'm upset the collective mindset of so many is to chalk this up as a "win". This isn't as simple as just being happy this guy did a good thing. There is a much, much bigger picture and systemic issue at play. 

I'd like the government to do something, anything, to make a dent in this problem. From mass shootings in schools to inner city gang violence. But we do nothing. One party is incompetent (or wants to milk the issue for funds) and the other party is making it worse as they collect gun lobby money. It's fucking sad. 

I'm not even talking going full Australia. Just doing anything.

And this whole "there's too many guns so why bother" attitude is so fucking defeatist. No different than the people that say we shouldn't bother to try and do anything about climate change. They're both killing, one is more obvious, but we do nothing with both (for similar reasons). 

Not sure the highlighted part will show up but you could expand. If going full Australia would whittle the problem away to almost nothing in time why wouldn't you be in favor of it? Just because you don't want to appear like the left wing zealot you wish you could be?

And nowhere is nothing being done. Most places have restrictions they just apparently don't work.

WSS

@vaportrail said:

Neo, if there is a gunman letting loose in the same room you are, you wouldn't consider your life at risk?

Woody, you were pissed off about the response time in Uvalde. If you wait for the police response in this situation, then you are looking at a death toll in the double digits. The government cannot protect you from everything and everyone who is violent. Everyone ought to play a role in their personal safety instead of leaving it up to the people who are 15x more likely to beat their wives. Arming more people in the US is a more realistic solution than enacting what they did in Europe/Australia/NZ. You want our government to have much more severe, draconian overreach, and you're upset that people are happy that this good Samaritan saved lives. You can be both angry at the shooter and happy for the good Samaritan.

I'm not going to celebrate a punch to the gut because it wasn't a punch to the face.

I never once said my intentions were for the "the government to protect me from everything and everyone who is violent". Don't start pulling a Steve on me here. 

Yes, there are a lot of fucked up stats regarding cops. I agree.

Arming people and turning the country into the metaphorical wild west isn't a solution and that's where we differ. It's hardly a bandaid. I posted about the four ways to solve a problem. Arming everyone so that there's hopefully a competent "good guy with a gun" around when someone starts shooting so a handful of people die instead of over a dozen isn't a solution. It's goddamn pathetic that's where we're at as a country. 

I'm not "upset" people are happy with this guy. I'm disappointed, exhausted, and angry at our whole system and state of affairs regarding gun violence in this country. I'm upset the collective mindset of so many is to chalk this up as a "win". This isn't as simple as just being happy this guy did a good thing. There is a much, much bigger picture and systemic issue at play. 

I'd like the government to do something, anything, to make a dent in this problem. From mass shootings in schools to inner city gang violence. But we do nothing. One party is incompetent (or wants to milk the issue for funds) and the other party is making it worse as they collect gun lobby money. It's fucking sad. 

I'm not even talking going full Australia. Just doing anything.

And this whole "there's too many guns so why bother" attitude is so fucking defeatist. No different than the people that say we shouldn't bother to try and do anything about climate change. They're both killing, one is more obvious, but we do nothing with both (for similar reasons). 

@neo said:

It's actually quite embarrassing that we have a police force and we can't rely on them for anything.

Wow good for you, because I can't afford to go to the range regularly and practice. What do you want a medal?

Which is why these yahoos pick places where you don't normally get a police response quick enough to stop massive damage. It's also why I do carry and I do go shoot regularly for only the cost of the ammo because a Vietnam Vet friend of mine has his own range in the country and he gave me the lock combination to get in if I text him in advance. He trusts me to use the range properly and go through his posted safety points one by one with anyone I take with me that I am training to shoot well every time I take them. I love to pass on the skills my father gave to me. We always have the range to ourselves which is far safer than public ranges.

@neo said:

What if I just don't care and don't want to help. I'm not a very pleasant person and I don't like people. Just look at this thread. There is nothing saying I have to help anyone. It happened in the food court, I could totally see myself just ducking out with my food while people like you get cut to pieces. 

Well I give you this much............you're damn sure honest. That I always respect even if I totally disagree. I still hope you rethink it though. There is no greater feeling than bailing someone under fire out of a jam. I think DieHard would agree with me on that one too.

@neo said:

Coming from the resident troll. Truth is you're annoying, all of you. I can't stand any of you. I would never help you. You can go get fucked.