@bob806 said:

The owners surely can afford to up the salaries of all players

Part of that upping is an increase in salary guarantees -- which is the other reason Browns had few takers for Baker because other teams wanted to Send A Message regarding the DW guaranteed monies.  Baker would look a lot better in Seattle than whichever guy is starting this week out there who wouldn't even start at Ohio State..

@sdbacker80 said:

I see where the Ravens are coming from - big money guaranteed to a running QB and the Browns are sorry for guaranteeing money at that position that the Ravens and Bengals will soon owe their QBs.   Maybe they should draft and start the next Kyle Boller. 

I was doing fine until that last sentence.  

@nickers said:

Like the bill of false goods one gets with Kyler "cry baby' Murray...

Yeah, something like that.  Or, like John Blutarsky-Manziel.  

@flugel said:

I wish he played in some other division so I could appreciate what he does out there. It almost seems unfair a guy like Dilfer didn't even have to outscore his defense on Sundays to be a Superbowl Champion.  Then again, THANK GOD that's not the situation in Ratville today.

I used to think Michael Vick was fast until I saw Lamar play.  In the NFL he consistently outruns DBs and linebackers that have some pretty good pursuit angles on him.  I see why he never wanted to run any 40s pre-draft.  Everybody would have wanted him to play WR or RB.  At least at QB, he's been able to run the ball or throw it whenever he wants.  All this almost makes me forget he won the Heisman Trophy mostly because of his impressive passing performances/stats one year. A lot of Heisman QBs are finding out the hard way the NFL passing game is an entirely different animal.  Right Baker?  Baker?

Like the bill of false goods one gets with Kyler "cry baby' Murray...

@nickers said:

The reality is... The window is incredibly small for Lamar , staying with Lamar if ya follow me... He's great if you have a team that's "Built to win it all now" kind of team... I think they fall a couple of birds short of that (the Rats)

I wish he played in some other division so I could appreciate what he does out there. It almost seems unfair a guy like Dilfer didn't even have to outscore his defense on Sundays to be a Superbowl Champion.  Then again, THANK GOD that's not the situation in Ratville today.

I used to think Michael Vick was fast until I saw Lamar play.  In the NFL he consistently outruns DBs and linebackers that have some pretty good pursuit angles on him.  I see why he never wanted to run any 40s pre-draft.  Everybody would have wanted him to play WR or RB.  At least at QB, he's been able to run the ball or throw it whenever he wants.  All this almost makes me forget he won the Heisman Trophy mostly because of his impressive passing performances/stats one year. A lot of Heisman QBs are finding out the hard way the NFL passing game is an entirely different animal.  Right Baker?  Baker?

@syd said:

agreed get as much as you can while you can

Yep. If the owners can do it, so can the players.

The owners surely can afford to up the salaries of all players.

Look at the Amazon TV deal, which short changes NFL fans everywhere (Thursday Night Football) while the owners line their pockets. 

We won't be around to see it, but the way things are going a long snapper will make $5 million eventually.

@flugel said:

Yeah, I think you're right about all of it.  Last year, he led his team in rushing with 767 yards (2 TDs). However, when we speak of the elite passers like Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes - LJ's TD:INT ratio was 16 TDs to 13 INTs.   Allen's was 36 TDs to 15 INTs - Mahomes' was 37 TDs to 13 INTs - Brady's was 42 TDs to 12 INTs.  The SB Champion QB Matthew Stafford had 41 TD passes to 17 INTs.

The year before that, Lamar rushed for 1005 yards (7 TDs); and had a much better TD:INT ratio of 26 TD passes to 9 INTs (ranking closer to Baker than Mahomes or Allen though).  Allen's was 37 TD passes to 10 INTs - Mahomes' was 38 TD passes to 6 INTs - Brady's was 40 TDs to 12 INTs.  

As we've seen first hand, Lamar brings so many different things to defend that it's tough to only look at his passing numbers in comparison to the elite passers.  Having said that, his style of play expedites his wear and tear and overall depreciation we're talking about that concerns the Ravens about the guaranteed money stuff.  I also think if Lamar's style of play had already won them a SB beating post season teams with elite passers in the process - the Ravens would have paid the man what he wants.  

The reality is... The window is incredibly small for Lamar , staying with Lamar if ya follow me... He's great if you have a team that's "Built to win it all now" kind of team... I think they fall a couple of birds short of that (the Rats)

@dutch-oven said:

He's been a helluva football player, the kid wins. (Or he wins in the regular season at a prolific pace) I never look forward to the Browns defense trying to stop him.

But I think he's hit his peak, and will decline in the future seasons. I don't think he's going to fall off the cliff, but the decline is beginning.

Honestly, I kind of think the Ravens feel this way too. 

Yeah, I think you're right about all of it.  Last year, he led his team in rushing with 767 yards (2 TDs). However, when we speak of the elite passers like Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes - LJ's TD:INT ratio was 16 TDs to 13 INTs.   Allen's was 36 TDs to 15 INTs - Mahomes' was 37 TDs to 13 INTs - Brady's was 42 TDs to 12 INTs.  The SB Champion QB Matthew Stafford had 41 TD passes to 17 INTs.

The year before that, Lamar rushed for 1005 yards (7 TDs); and had a much better TD:INT ratio of 26 TD passes to 9 INTs (ranking closer to Baker than Mahomes or Allen though).  Allen's was 37 TD passes to 10 INTs - Mahomes' was 38 TD passes to 6 INTs - Brady's was 40 TDs to 12 INTs.  

As we've seen first hand, Lamar brings so many different things to defend that it's tough to only look at his passing numbers in comparison to the elite passers.  Having said that, his style of play expedites his wear and tear and overall depreciation we're talking about that concerns the Ravens about the guaranteed money stuff.  I also think if Lamar's style of play had already won them a SB beating post season teams with elite passers in the process - the Ravens would have paid the man what he wants.  

@hoorta said:

But us peons can't comprehend why an extra $20 million on top of $200 million is such a big deal to these guys. 

The same way some low class worker from your town won't comprehend why you getting a pay rise was such a big deal to you when you were already winning doctor money. 

It's all about perspective, and these rich guys are asking money to 100x richer guys, while they play one of the most demanding and demanded sports. 

@flugel said:

True; but it looked to me like Jackson was hurt in 2021.  Beside the games he missed, it looked like something was wrong with his throwing arm/shoulder or whatever (which never got disclosed IMO but I could be wrong here).  I say that because his passing mechanics and throwing motion looked much different to me when he played.   Something didn't look right at all.  That's enough of a concern for a FO to not come close to guaranteeing 230 million $ to the only style of play the guy knows.  What happened to similar QBs when the toll of running too much as the QB got older began leading to more frequent injuries (ie: Michael Vick)? 

He's been a helluva football player, the kid wins. (Or he wins in the regular season at a prolific pace) I never look forward to the Browns defense trying to stop him.

But I think he's hit his peak, and will decline in the future seasons. I don't think he's going to fall off the cliff, but the decline is beginning.

Honestly, I kind of think the Ravens feel this way too. 

@hoorta said:

But us peons can't comprehend why an extra $20 million on top of $200 million is such a big deal to these guys. 

Eggs-actly!

@flugel said:

True; but it looked to me like Jackson was hurt in 2021.  Beside the games he missed, it looked like something was wrong with his throwing arm/shoulder or whatever (which never got disclosed IMO but I could be wrong here).  I say that because his passing mechanics and throwing motion looked much different to me when he played.   Something didn't look right at all.  That's enough of a concern for a FO to not come close to guaranteeing 230 million $ to the only style of play the guy knows.  What happened to similar QBs when the toll of running too much as the QB got older began leading to more frequent injuries (ie: Michael Vick)? 

True.   The more you run especially in open field the more LBs, SSs and others will get some good shots on you.  

And the QBs unlike RBs and others can't easily just sit it out for a series here and there without screwing up the game plan.   Remember the starting QB is the most valuable and the most expensive player in all team sports.......  (maybe except some of those European soccer stars, why I don't really know.   )

And repetitive hits can add up....but one good one can take you o-u-t.   

@flugel said:

True; but it looked to me like Jackson was hurt in 2021.  Beside the games he missed, it looked like something was wrong with his throwing arm/shoulder or whatever (which never got disclosed IMO but I could be wrong here).  I say that because his passing mechanics and throwing motion looked much different to me when he played.   Something didn't look right at all.  That's enough of a concern for a FO to not come close to guaranteeing 230 million $ to the only style of play the guy knows.  What happened to similar QBs when the toll of running too much as the QB got older began leading to more frequent injuries (ie: Michael Vick)? 

Yes Jackson's style of play does up the probability he's eventually going to get hurt. He missed time last year. 

But us peons can't comprehend why an extra $20 million on top of $200 million is such a big deal to these guys. 

@fy56 said:

It was right there in the original post for all to see.

However, this offer did fall short of the $230 million fully guaranteed contract that the Browns signed Deshaun Watson to after they acquired him in a trade with the Houston Texans. The report notes that fully guaranteed money is at the heart of the issue for Jackson and is looking to come as close to that $230 million guaranteed mark as possible.

True; but it looked to me like Jackson was hurt in 2021.  Beside the games he missed, it looked like something was wrong with his throwing arm/shoulder or whatever (which never got disclosed IMO but I could be wrong here).  I say that because his passing mechanics and throwing motion looked much different to me when he played.   Something didn't look right at all.  That's enough of a concern for a FO to not come close to guaranteeing 230 million $ to the only style of play the guy knows.  What happened to similar QBs when the toll of running too much as the QB got older began leading to more frequent injuries (ie: Michael Vick)? 

@vagitron said:

Didn't read through the thread but this is all the product of the absolutely brain dead deal the Browns gave Watson. It reset the market. Jackson wants a fully guaranteed contract because Watson got one. Frankly the league should have never allowed the Watson deal to be fully guaranteed but here we are. Jackson won't be the last one to ask for it. 

It wasn't necessary to read through the thread. You're the first to be brutally honest. Easy to do if you're not a Browns fan.

It was right there in the original post for all to see.

However, this offer did fall short of the $230 million fully guaranteed contract that the Browns signed Deshaun Watson to after they acquired him in a trade with the Houston Texans. The report notes that fully guaranteed money is at the heart of the issue for Jackson and is looking to come as close to that $230 million guaranteed mark as possible.

@hoorta said:

Maybe on guaranteed money, but not $$$ per year. Rodgers is getting more...  & the other top seven besides Watson are all making more than $40 million. It is what it is...  Mahomes started the backup to the Brinks deals with his $250 million.  

Took a bit, but IIRC almost all contracts in MLB are fully guaranteed.  

The mlb is a total shit show tho. I think it is at least. I'm also only talking about the guaranteed money with Watson. 

@vagitron said:

Didn't read through the thread but this is all the product of the absolutely brain dead deal the Browns gave Watson. It reset the market. Jackson wants a fully guaranteed contract because Watson got one. Frankly the league should have never allowed the Watson deal to be fully guaranteed but here we are. Jackson won't be the last one to ask for it. 

Maybe on guaranteed money, but not $$$ per year. Rodgers is getting more...  & the other top seven besides Watson are all making more than $40 million. It is what it is...  Mahomes started the backup to the Brinks deals with his $250 million.  

@vagitron said:

The Watson contract just set a really stupid precedent. We also both know people are still going to attend games. It just weakens the product on the field and if a guy goes down long term or has a career ender it's even worse. The cap will continually go up but fully guaranteed contracts, especially in the nfl just shouldn't be allowed. Similar happened with the rookie contracts, particularly the JaMarcus Russell deal. Now we have the rookie scale. 

Took a bit, but IIRC almost all contracts in MLB are fully guaranteed.  

@sdbacker80 said:

So Cincy pays Joe and Baltimore pays Lamar (eventually) they both get a boatload of guaranteed money and lose guys to Free agency. 
 

Folks don’t have to attend games and buy the merchandise. 

The Watson contract just set a really stupid precedent. We also both know people are still going to attend games. It just weakens the product on the field and if a guy goes down long term or has a career ender it's even worse. The cap will continually go up but fully guaranteed contracts, especially in the nfl just shouldn't be allowed. Similar happened with the rookie contracts, particularly the JaMarcus Russell deal. Now we have the rookie scale. 

@vagitron said:

Didn't read through the thread but this is all the product of the absolutely brain dead deal the Browns gave Watson. It reset the market. Jackson wants a fully guaranteed contract because Watson got one. Frankly the league should have never allowed the Watson deal to be fully guaranteed but here we are. Jackson won't be the last one to ask for it. 

So Cincy pays Joe and Baltimore pays Lamar (eventually) they both get a boatload of guaranteed money and lose guys to Free agency. 
 

Folks don’t have to attend games and buy the merchandise. 

@hoorta said:

To see where it's headed, look no farther than the Super Bowl crowd.  Joe fan has been priced out of decent seating.  Looking at Axe's pricing list, taking a family of 4 to a game anymore is the cost of a car payment. 

My car payment is $285.

Me and two friends just got our friend and his dad tickets for an upcoming game. Two tickets in the upper deck cost about 50% higher than my car payment.

@hoorta said:

Then let me ask you- Lamar is essentially a great running back who happens to be able to throw passes on the side? (MHO too) I'd love to hear your take on LJ's ability as a QB Tia....   He's been able to avoid taking the RG III kill shot- so far.  

  Funny, given your timing of asking, I'm actually working on a piece at the moment showing some of the running game designs from the gun that Coach Stef has "borrowed" from the Ravens.   I suppose my answer isn't easy to sum up with a "he's good, or great" or the like.

 Lamar is Lamar.  

 His athletic ability is special.  Haven't seen QB's move like him since Vick, honorable mention to Jack Locker and Vince Young... I can't think of that guy from Arkansas' name.  Back in the day, early 2000's...  INSANE running ability. But include him too in that honorable mention.

  Lamar has great straight line speed, but great lateral quickness and burst.   So as an open field athlete, he's pretty damned incredible.    His legs also give him a great sort of buffer in the passing game.  Given his ability to find or create and open running lane and walk right by your dline and LB's means the pass rush you send at him has to be incredibly disciplined in their lane.  Your eyes have to be up, both hands and feet active, and you can't really get upfield and around the corner as an edge because that sort of athletic ability will punish you by just taking up off the voided gap.      This generally means you're taking a precious second or two and putting it back on the clock as a QB.    Gives Lamar that extra second to read, process, then deliver.     His running ability works hand in hand with his passing ability, because when he is able to plant his feet and drive the ball downfield, he does throw a pretty pass with good velocity.    

 Toss in the designed QB running game, which negates a defenses numbers advantage in the box and forces additional bodies thinking down/cover as opposed to cover/down, then you get the storm which took the league over in 2019.  

 We've also seen what happens when defensive coordinators put a premium on matching the Ravens athletic ability on the field, both at skill positions AND QB, then forcing Lamar to show a combination of patience, decisiveness, accuracy (and my personal biggie) and consistency as a passer from the pocket.  It is a playoff test he has failed more times than he has passed.   But it's also uncommon to find teams with the personnel and coaches to not only be creative enough, but have enough time to implement a game plan with new defensive calls/wrinkles to execute that type limiting design.      At one point, defensive coaches from both TEN and SD put down a blueprint of a 5 man rush that alternated between flying upfield on the edge and forcing Lamar to not overstep into a shallow interior pocket - OR- to "simulate" pressure on the IOL and then "fence" Lamar in on the edges.  Essentially waiting for him to walk into sacks and TFL's.

  The biggest reason he hasn't taken that RG3 killshot is because he's smart(er) on his contact, and he didn't walk into the league with two major ACL surgeries under his belt.  

  But there are designs specific to both his abilities and inabilities that 3 teams have used in 3 consecutive playoff years that minimized his overall effectiveness and consistency as a player.   To my knowledge, that design still hasn't changed.   It starts and ends with limiting the Ravens option based running game and leveraging DB's in an attempt to invite Lamar to consistently beat coverage to the numbers.  Something he has and continues to struggle with as a passer.

He's a hell of player and can be fun as shit to watch.  By all accounts a hard worker, good locker room presence and a great member in your community.     But when he's forced to plant his ass behind that Oline and routinely make throw after throw, then I've made mention before - his passing abilities look as mediocre as Bakers at times.  

He isn't a RB playing QB.  He's an average, MAYBE, slightly-above average passer with an elite set of wheels.  

edit:  Re: Vick's rushing record.   Less impressive today than it was even when Vick was doing it.  For a few reasons.

- Mike played, including at Va Tech, a great deal under center.   While I don't remember his footwork being amazing, he still had that clear advantage in exposure compared to Lamar.

- Offensive design.   Mike rushed for 1k yards only once, and that was the year Jim Mora decided to actually put those legs to use as a primary weapon occasionally.   The most carries, either by design or breakdown, of Vick's career came in 06... If I remember right?   Let me google that one... Yep. 123 carries for 1,039 yards at 8.4 per clip.      Conversely, Lamar's best season is 186 carries, 1209 yards at 6.5 a carry.     

Vick could have gone for 1,500 had you given him damn near 200 carries like Lamar.  

 In that same offensive design, you've found more teams that spread for power and involve modern running concepts that great real weird in their motions, counters, pulls and lead design.   The window dressing done today vs 16 years ago is insane, and that's not including the RPO concepts sprinkled in.     It's a shame Mike didn't find his maturity until after he got out of prison.  Because if 2009, 2010 Vick had showed up in 2005 or 2006, the NFL would have seen some shit even Lamar couldn't touch.

@tiamat63 said:

Double edged sword. 

The structure of the Ravens offense works to mask Lamar's clear deficiencies as a passer.   

It isn't so much what they "ask" him to do, more like it's a requirement at this point.

Then let me ask you- Lamar is essentially a great running back who happens to be able to throw passes on the side? (MHO too) I'd love to hear your take on LJ's ability (or non ability) as a QB Tia....   He's been able to avoid taking the RG III kill shot- so far.  In his 59 games he's already more than half way to breaking Vick's rushing yards by a QB.