THE CBS LATE  -and-  FOX EARLY PLUS LATE GAMES  (Including the Cleveland 4 pm Market  to round out our Sunday  1 & 4 pm games.)       .

So now you know ......

@calfoxwc said:

On second thought, that is excellent stuff ! LOL and THANKS !!!

No worries Cal!  I was a huge Bernie fan too.  

@flugel said:

You did a lot of work here. Some of it I agree with; but some of it seems like a lot of sour grapes about the way things ended with Kosar in Cleveland.  No matter how brilliant any Coach is - he can't win a Championship/Championships without talent.  Untalented teams don't win Championships because a genius has remote control over them.  

Okay, I'll subtract the 3 Super Bowls New England won because Gronk was a huge help in those.  Now we'll pretend poor Bill Belichick only won 3 Super Bowls for a franchise that won 0 Super Bowls in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. I'll even make sure everyone knows he lost 2 Super Bowls too!  Should we also subtract 2 of the Super Bowls the Giants won because he had Lawrence Taylor?

Your without Tom Brady questioning should have asked - does Gronk have the same career without Tom Brady?  If so, why was he only a 2nd round draft choice?  Does Julian Edelman?  Before playing for Bill Belichick, Tom Brady was only a 6th round draft choice that didn't win any Championships during his 2 years as a starter in college. He became the GOAT in Belichick's football program.  

It's ironic you ask that question about how Mahomes would handle the loss of his biggest weapon today (Kelce).  Many wondered how he would handle the loss of the most explosive WR in the AFC (Tyreek Hill) - who scored 15 TDs in 2020 and 9 TDs in 2021.  This year Mahomes leads all NFL passers with 29 TD passes in 11, 315 yards/G, 3467 yards and 65.6 comp % games, 104.6 passer rating so he answered how he would do without Hill.  While Kelce is a huge help to his success - he was an upper 1st round talent before playing a single down with Kelce.

Living in Tampa, I am aware that the loss of Pro Bowl LG Ali Marpet to early retirement and RG Alex Cappa to FA this past offseason has really hurt the pass protection and running game (aside from the loss of Gronk).  Along the same line, I don't think the Browns can afford to go without Bitonio and Teller at the same time either.  

On second thought, that is excellent stuff ! LOL and THANKS !!!

@calfoxwc said:

Granted. But the connection between Brady and Gronk has a historical basis. 2002 - Brady had Daniel Graham as his outstanding TE. Daniel Graham - was a consensus All-American TE in college (Colorado) - and was drafted in the first round by the Patriots. It isn't "genius" to hit on a few great first round picks. Sure, Bellichump was very, very smart as a coach. But the oft proclaimed all time genius hc was shown to be nonsense. He was a miserable, pompous failure in Cleveland. He grew as a person and as a coach, yes he did.

    but the innovation of a great TE with Brady was magic. Their offense thrived on it. Brady had Gronk in Tampa Bay. This year, Gronk retired, Brady still there - not looking pretty. They are 5-6 I think.

  And the Patriots - The pats are 6-6, last place in their div. No Brady-Gronk-like magic to make it work.

Which brings me to the point:

   Without Kelce, how dominant would the Chief's offense with Mahomes be?

Just sayin. Bellichek is a fine coach. But his success has a ton to do with the magic connection he had for so long. Not his "genius".

You did a lot of work here. Some of it I agree with; but some of it seems like a lot of sour grapes about the way things ended with Kosar in Cleveland.  No matter how brilliant any Coach is - he can't win a Championship/Championships without talent.  Untalented teams don't win Championships because a genius has remote control over them.  

Okay, I'll subtract the 3 Super Bowls New England won because Gronk was a huge help in those.  Now we'll pretend poor Bill Belichick only won 3 Super Bowls for a franchise that won 0 Super Bowls in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. I'll even make sure everyone knows he lost 2 Super Bowls too!  Should we also subtract 2 of the Super Bowls the Giants won because he had Lawrence Taylor?

Your without Tom Brady questioning should have asked - does Gronk have the same career without Tom Brady?  If so, why was he only a 2nd round draft choice?  Does Julian Edelman?  Before playing for Bill Belichick, Tom Brady was only a 6th round draft choice that didn't win any Championships during his 2 years as a starter in college. He became the GOAT in Belichick's football program.  

It's ironic you ask that question about how Mahomes would handle the loss of his biggest weapon today (Kelce).  Many wondered how he would handle the loss of the most explosive WR in the AFC (Tyreek Hill) - who scored 15 TDs in 2020 and 9 TDs in 2021.  This year Mahomes leads all NFL passers with 29 TD passes in 11, 315 yards/G, 3467 yards and 65.6 comp % games, 104.6 passer rating so he answered how he would do without Hill.  While Kelce is a huge help to his success - he was an upper 1st round talent before playing a single down with Kelce.

Living in Tampa, I am aware that the loss of Pro Bowl LG Ali Marpet to early retirement and RG Alex Cappa to FA this past offseason has really hurt the pass protection and running game (aside from the loss of Gronk).  Along the same line, I don't think the Browns can afford to go without Bitonio and Teller at the same time either.  

@calfoxwc said:

Granted. But the connection between Brady and Gronk has a historical basis. 2002 - Brady had Daniel Graham as his outstanding TE. Daniel Graham - was a consensus All-American TE in college (Colorado) - and was drafted in the first round by the Patriots. It isn't "genius" to hit on a few great first round picks. Sure, Bellichump was very, very smart as a coach. But the oft proclaimed all time genius hc was shown to be nonsense. He was a miserable, pompous failure in Cleveland. He grew as a person and as a coach, yes he did.

    but the innovation of a great TE with Brady was magic. Their offense thrived on it. Brady had Gronk in Tampa Bay. This year, Gronk retired, Brady still there - not looking pretty. They are 5-6 I think.

  And the Patriots - The pats are 6-6, last place in their div. No Brady-Gronk-like magic to make it work.

Which brings me to the point:

   Without Kelce, how dominant would the Chief's offense with Mahomes be?

Just sayin. Bellichek is a fine coach. But his success has a ton to do with the magic connection he had for so long. Not his "genius".

One thing don't underestimate the Belichick football background going way back before he became a head coach   -including-  his time with Bill Parcells.  Bill Belichick learned his trade from his father and many others along the way,   he is one smart coach  -and-  cheater at times along the way. 

▪︎ And the Brady-Belichick tie actually ran from 2001-2019 including all 6 of their SB wins and record 9 SB appearances together.  There was a lot of water that flowed under that bridge in all of those very successful years.  Brady-Belichick were there for all of them, Gronkowski was also a big part at the end of that streak.  

THE TRUE BEGINNING.  -  Brady and Belichick era

In the 2000 NFL Draft, first year head coach Bill Belichick was looking for ways to improve a New England Patriots team that had not been to a Super Bowl since 1996. Belichick had been hired after 3rd-year head coach Pete Carroll was fired following the 1999 season. Prior to the draft the Patriots sent quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbein to scout quarterbacks for the draft. When Rehbein returned, he stated that Brady was the best quarterback prospect for the Patriots' system.^[21] Despite the Patriots already having a franchise quarterback in Drew Bledsoe, they drafted Tom Brady in the sixth round.

2000–2002: Beginnings and first Super Bowl

The Patriots went 5–11 in 2000, the last losing season the Patriots had until 2020. Belichick, after a loss during the season, claimed that "I can't win games with 40 good players while the other team has 53" after many players showed up to camp out of condition.^[22]

In 2001, Belichick made major reforms. The beginning of the culture he brought to New England, dubbed the "Patriot Way", was beginning to show with wide receiver Terry Glenn's contract holdout. The Patriots could not afford to raise Glenn's salary, and Belichick suspended Glenn indefinitely after repeated failed drug tests. Glenn did not receive a ring when the Patriots won Super Bowl XXXVI that year.^[23]

The Patriots started 0–1, and faced a division rival in Week 2 against the New York Jets. Late in the game, down 10–3, quarterback Drew Bledsoe rolled out of the pocket and tried to scramble down the sideline, until he was nearly fatally hit by Jets linebacker Mo Lewis. In the hospital later that day, Bledsoe came perilously close to death resulting from internal bleeding sustained in the hit. The concussion alone had been more than enough to sideline him for the remainder of the game. The Patriots lost the game, moving to 0–2. Second year backup QB Tom Brady started the next game against the Indianapolis Colts 

2003–04: Back-to-back Super Bowls.  2008–2010: Brady's injury and more playoff disappointments. 

2014: Fourth Super Bowl victory.  /   2016: Fifth Super Bowl victory. /  2018: Sixth Super Bowl victory. /  

2019: The end of the era ..... And Brady's trip to Tampa Bay.   ~ AND ~  NOW WE HAVE THE WHOLE PICTURE.   

@flugel said:

Some clarifications. 

After being the ONLY NFL Coach smart enough to even draft Tom Brady (and as late as round 6) - Brady won his first Super Bowl in 2002.  Gronk didn't join him in the Super Bowl until 2015.  In fact, Brady already won 3 Super Bowls 2002, 2004, and 2005.  NE won 3 with Gronk there too in 2015, 2017, and 2019.   They won 1 more in Tampa.  Who was the NFL Coach smart enough to draft Gronk?   Same guy that drafted Brady.  

Most recently, Brady just lose to Cleveland, not too long after losing to Carolina.  NE beat Cleveland last year and this year pretty easily. 

Granted. But the connection between Brady and Gronk has a historical basis. 2002 - Brady had Daniel Graham as his outstanding TE. Daniel Graham - was a consensus All-American TE in college (Colorado) - and was drafted in the first round by the Patriots. It isn't "genius" to hit on a few great first round picks. Sure, Bellichump was very, very smart as a coach. But the oft proclaimed all time genius hc was shown to be nonsense. He was a miserable, pompous failure in Cleveland. He grew as a person and as a coach, yes he did.

    but the innovation of a great TE with Brady was magic. Their offense thrived on it. Brady had Gronk in Tampa Bay. This year, Gronk retired, Brady still there - not looking pretty. They are 5-6 I think.

  And the Patriots - The pats are 6-6, last place in their div. No Brady-Gronk-like magic to make it work.

Which brings me to the point:

   Without Kelce, how dominant would the Chief's offense with Mahomes be?

Just sayin. Bellichek is a fine coach. But his success has a ton to do with the magic connection he had for so long. Not his "genius".

How many pro titles did Paul Brown win after Otto Graham retired? 

@calfoxwc said:

The Brady-Gronk magic is gone. Bellycheck doesn't look like a genius these days. Guess what changed.  

...... edit, yes that was the magic combination that won the rings !

Some clarifications. 

After being the ONLY NFL Coach smart enough to even draft Tom Brady (and as late as round 6) - Brady won his first Super Bowl in 2002.  Gronk didn't join him in the Super Bowl until 2015.  In fact, Brady already won 3 Super Bowls 2002, 2004, and 2005.  NE won 3 with Gronk there too in 2015, 2017, and 2019.   They won 1 more in Tampa.  Who was the NFL Coach smart enough to draft Gronk?   Same guy that drafted Brady.  

Most recently, Brady just lose to Cleveland, not too long after losing to Carolina.  NE beat Cleveland last year and this year pretty easily. 

@mjp28 said:

~ Final score  Buffalo  24  New England 10. ~    I guess this isn't the old Brady to Gronkowski / Belichick NE Patriots anymore  ..... far from it.

The Brady-Gronk magic is gone. Bellycheck doesn't look like a genius these days. Guess what changed.  

...... edit, yes that was the magic combination that won the rings !

BUF 16. NE 2   and   still only 5 NO PICKS.     Wow 16-2 on one game.   Oh the Halftime score BUFFALO (-4】17 and  NE  7.   Might be a good finish who knows.