@flugel said:

? I loved it when Gips did that MJ.  The Browns beat the defending NFL Champions (Philly) in their 1st NFL game by a score of 35-10.  Good thing Cleveland was used to crappy competition. The Browns later beat the Rams 30-28 in the 1950 Championship Title Game.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a current team be that competitive. Unfortunately, this franchise has only won 1 playoff game since they beat NE in the Wild Card game back in 1994.  

What should we be bragging about in the Haslam era?  Anything?   Oh yeah, we're great at firing Head Coaches and Coordinators!

And trading for dipshit QB's who don't make a damn difference...

@mjp28 said:

Oh yes .....  our gip emphatically and religiously included the 46-49 Cleveland BROWNS into this conversation  so there it is. 1946, 47 | 48, 1949 as a card carrying member of the National Football League.  Come hell or high water.  And yes Paul Brown's team beat the defending NFL Champs in 1950, right ?    Clear enough, yes they deserved a seat at the table ?      

? I loved it when Gips did that MJ.  The Browns beat the defending NFL Champions (Philly) in their 1st NFL game by a score of 35-10.  Good thing Cleveland was used to crappy competition. The Browns later beat the Rams 30-28 in the 1950 Championship Title Game.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a current team be that competitive. Unfortunately, this franchise has only won 1 playoff game since they beat NE in the Wild Card game back in 1994.  

What should we be bragging about in the Haslam era?  Anything?   Oh yeah, we're great at firing Head Coaches and Coordinators!

Where people are getting this "the NFL was far superior to the AAFC" narrative is beyond me. 

@mjp28 said:

The Paul Brown Cleveland BROWNS were the best team in the mediocre AAFC and even better than most all  NFL teams,  no doubt.  

But as a group the NFL was superior to the soon to be disbanded AAFC and not the other way around.   

It didn't take too long for the NFL to catch on and eventually pass the once dominant Paul Brown  Browns/ Bengals.   The Bengals even had a shot at winning a Super Bowl....... well in 1982.

Of course the NFL had more talent - nobody is disputing that.  I'm disputing the attitude that Cleveland dominating the other league meant nothing; when in actuality - the Browns WON the NFL Championship Title Game their very 1st year in the NFL.  Who had the glass jaw there - the Browns or the NFL? This NFL that the Browns weren't supposed to be competitive in sure couldn't keep the Browns out of the Championship Title Games the 1st 6 years they played in it.  Nothing STOPPED their greatness the 1st 6 years.  Looks to me like it was the NFL that needed the Browns to make their Championships more meaningful in the reality of "to be the best - you have to beat the best."  When you say it didn't take the NFL too long to catch on and eventually pass the team that won the last 4 AAFC Championships - SHOULD it have really taken them 6 years to do so?  That's not exactly the compliment or glowing endorsement you want it to be for the NFL.   But yeah, the NFL eventually "caught on" to what the Browns  accomplished in the 10 year span participating in both leagues.

Tom Brady is the GOAT while Patrick Mahomes is the GOAT in training; but how many years did it take Tom Brady to play in 10 Super Bowl Championships?  About 20 or more right?  The Browns played in the Championship Title Games the 1st 10 years they existed with the Invisible GOAT - Otto Graham... People that don't respect history bring up the "yeah but" like a pack of Budweiser Frogs; but some football fanatics are moved by this unparalleled powerful 1st impression.  Do you realize how many family football traditions still in existence today began from that powerful football empire?  It's not just exclusive to Ohio born natives believe it or not.  Places like Erie, PA and Rochester/Upstate, NY within a 3-5 hour car ride have multiple Browns Backers Clubs. 

When history repeated itself with the USFL not competing against the established family/football/cultural traditions of the NFL dating back much further than the Super Bowl era - it didn't have to mean that football league was totally meaningless.  Why would I say that?  If it wasn't for that league - the Browns wouldn't have been able to add the following players via the Supplemental Draft: Kevin Mack, Mike Johnson, Frank Minnifield, Dan Fike, Ice Cube McNeil, Sam Clancy and more.  All these guys had significant roles on our playoff teams in the 80s.  Other teams landed QBs like Steve Young and Jim Kelly. 

@flugel said:

Not so fast.  When the Browns arrived in the NFL - they were guaranteed not so nicely they wouldn't be able to compete against all the REAL competition they allegedly weren't used to. The Browns responded by going to the NFL Championship Title Game every one of their 1st 6 seasons in the NFL against such superior competition. Even better, they won 3 of them (including their very 1st appearance).  

Otto Graham led the Browns to 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships in all 10 of the seasons he played in 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954 and 1955.  The Browns won 7 of the 10 Pro Football Championships.  How many other QBs or teams have we seen do this in their 1st 10 years of Professional Football existence?  

I agree with Gipper that this unparalleled 1st impression the Browns made was some pretty special stuff.  

The Paul Brown Cleveland BROWNS were the best team in the mediocre AAFC and even better than most all  NFL teams,  no doubt.  

But as a group the NFL was superior to the soon to be disbanded AAFC and not the other way around.   

It didn't take too long for the NFL to catch on and eventually pass the once dominant Paul Brown  Browns/ Bengals.   The Bengals even had a shot at winning a Super Bowl....... well in 1982.

@mjp28 said:

YES,   as good as Paul Brown and the ahead of their time Cleveland BROWNS were the AAFC was not the equal  of the more established NFL. 

︎.  Sorry gip you can not say they were no matter how much you love our BROWNS. 

NFL >  AAFC,   everytime.   The AAFC competition was weak and the league folded and  "some"  players and teams were absorbed into the NFL  ...... the rest went back to selling cars or maybe washing them.   Sorry gip and others just the facts of what actually  happened. 

Not so fast.  When the Browns arrived in the NFL - they were guaranteed not so nicely they wouldn't be able to compete against all the REAL competition they allegedly weren't used to. The Browns responded by going to the NFL Championship Title Game every one of their 1st 6 seasons in the NFL against such superior competition. Even better, they won 3 of them (including their very 1st appearance).  

Otto Graham led the Browns to 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships in all 10 of the seasons he played in 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954 and 1955.  The Browns won 7 of the 10 Pro Football Championships.  How many other QBs or teams have we seen do this in their 1st 10 years of Professional Football existence?  

I agree with Gipper that this unparalleled 1st impression the Browns made was some pretty special stuff.  

@ballpeen said:

Only half a joke.

The NFL wasn't all that established and still in the rinky dink stages of development.  I do agree it is foolish to bring up old AAFC championships.  That was 70 years ago.  I used to get in to debate with my old friend Gipper about that.  He was always bringing up old AAFC records.

YES,   as good as Paul Brown and the ahead of their time Cleveland BROWNS were the AAFC was not the equal  of the more established NFL. 

︎.  Sorry gip you can not say they were no matter how much you love our BROWNS. 

NFL >  AAFC,   everytime.   The AAFC competition was weak and the league folded and  "some"  players and teams were absorbed into the NFL  ...... the rest went back to selling cars or maybe washing them.   Sorry gip and others just the facts of what actually  happened. 

@fy56 said:

The commissioner was right.

If a current minor league USFL team joined the NFL, their record wouldn't be counted either.  I don't know why you old farts are so hung up on that.

The AAFC was a complete joke.

Only half a joke.

The NFL wasn't all that established and still in the rinky dink stages of development.  I do agree it is foolish to bring up old AAFC championships.  That was 70 years ago.  I used to get in to debate with my old friend Gipper about that.  He was always bringing up old AAFC records.

@fy56 said:

The commissioner was right.

If a current minor league USFL team joined the NFL, their record wouldn't be counted either.  I don't know why you old farts are so hung up on that.

The AAFC was a complete joke.

First off, it's water long under the bridge, and will never change but...   The Browns got screwed in the record department..  Period.  

1) Dare I ask... How old are you?   I'm PLENTY old enough to remember the days of the old AFL....   Same shit.. the NFL thumbed their noses in the 1960s for years at the "minor league" AFL, that is, until Daddy Warbucks guys like Lamar Hunt started outbidding the NFL for top tier talent. In that time frame, the AFL was not a whit more legit than the Browns of the 1940s.  

2) If you think any startup league today could compete with the NFL's (I believe it's something like the $12 billion dollar war chest of TV revenue) put down your crack pipe. 1950 was a totally different era.  

Need a history refresher?  The "upstart"  Cleveland Browns beat the defending NFL Champion Eagles 35-10 in the first game of the season. Got any rebuttal to that one? Or how Cleveland later won what would now be considered the "Super Bowl" later that year?  Hmmmm?      

@nickers said:

? Oooookay!!!!

Ill take that as you not agreeing with me this time. lol

Hey, I can't win em all! lol

@fy56 said:

The AAFC was a complete joke.

? Oooookay!!!!

@hoorta said:

I should add.. Our long time poster and now RIP guy the Gipper added on.... In 1950 the NFL commissioner was so disgusted the the "Minor League" AAFC Browns were joining the NFL, he made sure all the Browns records previous to that never officially counted. But 15 or so years later, the old AFL records DO count.  Never mind the Browns beat the reining NFL champs (the Eagles) twice that year.     

The commissioner was right.

If a current minor league USFL team joined the NFL, their record wouldn't be counted either.  I don't know why you old farts are so hung up on that.

The AAFC was a complete joke.

@bob806 said:

Never Forget (73 years later lol)

When I was growing up, my Dad told me I could like any team I want except the Eagles, Lions, & NY Giants. 

The Lions never bothered me, but yes Dad (RIP), I still hate Philly & the NYGiants.

Because the Steelers sucked so bad back then there was no reason to hate them.

@mjp28 said:

And CLE, CIN, PIT in the same division with HOU ?  Why ?  Not a NE USA team like BUF, DET, NE, even GB, oh well done and gone now.  But at the time I thought it was just poor planning when I was 19.

31. The Browns and Steelers are placed in a new AFC Central division along with the Houston Oilers and Cincinnati Bengals in 1970 to become part of the new American Football Conference (AFC).

I think we have all played that game  at one time or another.  The problem is we see it as browns fans.  Other teams had their concerns as well. Everything from maintaining rivalries to TV scheduling.

@hoorta said:

I should add.. Our long time poster and now RIP guy the Gipper added on.... In 1950 the NFL commissioner was so disgusted the the "Minor League" AAFC Browns were joining the NFL, he made sure all the Browns records previous to that never officially counted. But 15 or so years later, the old AFL records DO count.  Never mind the Browns beat the reining NFL champs (the Eagles) twice that year.     

Oh yes .....  our gip emphatically and religiously included the 46-49 Cleveland BROWNS into this conversation  so there it is. 1946, 47 | 48, 1949 as a card carrying member of the National Football League.  Come hell or high water.  And yes Paul Brown's team beat the defending NFL Champs in 1950, right ?    Clear enough, yes they deserved a seat at the table ?      

@bob806 said:

The NY Giants, Lions, & Eagles were big rivals of the Browns (as were the LA Rams, nee CLE Rams who left CLE). Of course, the NFL was much smaller than it is today.

The Lions beat the Browns a few times in the NFL title game in the 50s. So my dad hated that ( similar to my issues with Denver lol). The Browns did avenge a couple of those losses eventually, beating the Lions in a championship game. 

If you happened to read that article, the Eagles coach totally disrespected the Browns & the old AAFC, figuring it was minor league football merging with the NFL. Paul Brown used it as motivation, and probably got the fan base fired up as well.

If you ever get a chance to read up, there's a few cool Browns books out there like "PB, the Paul Brown Story" or "Day By Day in Cleveland Browns History," and they touch on the early days of Browns football. Warning- "False Start," by Terry Pluto will get you fired up, be careful lol (it's about the rebirth of the Browns after Art's crime).

I should add.. Our long time poster and now RIP guy the Gipper added on.... In 1950 the NFL commissioner was so disgusted the the "Minor League" AAFC Browns were joining the NFL, he made sure all the Browns records previous to that never officially counted. But 15 or so years later, the old AFL records DO count.  Never mind the Browns beat the reining NFL champs (the Eagles) twice that year.     

@korsou-dawg said:

Being somewhat ignorant about the history of Football, care to elaborate why those 3 teams specifically? Even though I'm kinda on board with NY already. 

The NY Giants, Lions, & Eagles were big rivals of the Browns (as were the LA Rams, nee CLE Rams who left CLE). Of course, the NFL was much smaller than it is today.

The Lions beat the Browns a few times in the NFL title game in the 50s. So my dad hated that ( similar to my issues with Denver lol). The Browns did avenge a couple of those losses eventually, beating the Lions in a championship game. 

If you happened to read that article, the Eagles coach totally disrespected the Browns & the old AAFC, figuring it was minor league football merging with the NFL. Paul Brown used it as motivation, and probably got the fan base fired up as well.

If you ever get a chance to read up, there's a few cool Browns books out there like "PB, the Paul Brown Story" or "Day By Day in Cleveland Browns History," and they touch on the early days of Browns football. Warning- "False Start," by Terry Pluto will get you fired up, be careful lol (it's about the rebirth of the Browns after Art's crime).

@bob806 said:

Never Forget (73 years later lol)

When I was growing up, my Dad told me I could like any team I want except the Eagles, Lions, & NY Giants. 

The Lions never bothered me, but yes Dad (RIP), I still hate Philly & the NYGiants.

Being somewhat ignorant about the history of Football, care to elaborate why those 3 teams specifically? Even though I'm kinda on board with NY already. 

@hoorta said:

Regarding them Bungles...  I really don't feel your pain....  But I do relate... We had "Red Right 88", "The Drive", and "The Fumble".....  You now have "The Shove".... let me know when you catch up in the one step away heartbreak department....  

Oh, I get it, the Super Bowl choke itis ... At least you got there.... 

Yes, this.

This is the thing that's impossible for me to grasp....regarding the "NFL is fixed" crowd. I really have a hard time believing the NFL is intentionally fixing games. You'd think that if they were, teams like the Browns & the Lions would have been in the Super Bowl by now. Good fan bases, you would think (hope) that they'd be "rewarded" at some point?

Yes, I do think the Browns got screwed on Karlis's wide-left in 1987, but for goodness sake our team's been back for 23 years now, and only 3 playoff seasons. Yep, the Browns get screwed on calls quite a bit (probably more than most), but ultimately its the front office that puts garbage on the field. 

Sorry I ventured off topic, just had to vent this morning I guess?

@bob806 said:

Never Forget (73 years later lol)

When I was growing up, my Dad told me I could like any team I want except the Eagles, Lions, & NY Giants. 

The Lions never bothered me, but yes Dad (RIP), I still hate Philly & the NYGiants.

So nice to see the Top 75 BROWNS Moments again,  I could just sit back and go through the entire list over again.  Reminds me of the 75 good  reasons here and many more for being a Cleveland BROWNS fan.

Even ones like this I was 19 when Pete Rozelle and others brought about the great merger between the pass happy AFL and the old and legendary NFL football league.  But then the dividing and merging and oh-no say it's not so ...... our legendary BROWNS  now in the AFC and even with the pitiful Pittsburgh steelers who from 1933 to 1970 had  never  ever won even  one  single playoff game.

And CLE, CIN, PIT in the same division with HOU ?  Why ?  Not a NE USA team like BUF, DET, NE, even GB, oh well done and gone now.  But at the time I thought it was just poor planning when I was 19.

31. The Browns and Steelers are placed in a new AFC Central division along with the Houston Oilers and Cincinnati Bengals in 1970 to become part of the new American Football Conference (AFC).

When I was growing up, my Dad told me I could like any team I want except the Eagles, Lions, & NY Giants. 

The Lions never bothered me, but yes Dad (RIP), I still hate Philly & the NYGiants.

@hoorta said:

Regarding them Bungles...  I really don't feel your pain....  But I do relate... We had "Red Right 88", "The Drive", and "The Fumble".....  You now have "The Shove".... let me know when you catch up in the one step away heartbreak department....  

Oh, I get it, the Super Bowl choke itis ... At least you got there.... 

Almost does not count!

To be won by the other Pennsylvania team, but the Bungles once again bungled that up.

Oh, I get it, the Super Bowl choke itis ... At least you got there....