@tiamat63 said:

JoK's issues are two fold.

- He was a prime athlete playing in a college system no where near as complex as what he's had to do in the NFL.

- His mental and coverage discipline getting in the way of him seeing more snaps.     I'm sure people beyond myself noticed him being subbed out on passing downs last season.   That shouldn't happen when you have wheels like him.  But it did, because he couldn't be trusted to hold his water, find coverage landmarks, correctly diagnose and go cover/down.   Basically to be a complete linebacker as opposed to a great athlete who runs down ball carriers.  

 Speaking of ILB's.   This was something @flugel and myself spoke on the phone about, but I also brought up on this board in the Prospects thread.     I've been working to get a better handle on Jack Campbell and the Iowa defensive system, and how he stacks up against other LB's that have come through there.   I made mention that their 2022 version reminded me quite a bit of the Hawkeyes days under Coach Norm Parker.   Leaning on a cover 2 base, not many personnel subs, very passive in their calls and lacking ideal DB's.    

 It's also no secret that RAS risers are a thing and I'm no fan of them.   So when I see Campbell post a good 3 cone or shuttle, I want to see that change of direction and first step lateral pursuit really show up at some point in game.  Otherwise I'm just going to think you're a combine warrior and little else.    Finally came across that play which had me find a bit of ease should JC drop to us or the Brownies trade up to late R2 and take him.    And this works perfectly because it's an apples to apples comparison across the board.  And yes, my memory is pretty damn fantastic for this sort of recall.  

 This was against coach Norm Parker in 2006.

 Offensive/Defensive personnel are the same.

Formation is the same.

Defensive call is the same.

Route(s) is/are the same.  

MLB being the matchup is the same. 

Only difference is in the actual player(s) themselves.  

 Some might call this H option, but I'd suspect they're wrong?    I say that because most any option route from the H/Z/Y, with a clearout from the perimeter, that means you're going to use the leverage of the LB against him and break this outside.  Who knows how Tressel tags this though, but I'm more familiar with the 50 H-option classic from Urban Meyer.    Anywho, called this a snag n drag.   First play is an example from one of the best possession receivers OSU has had the last 25 years.

Feel free to ignore anything after the catch.  The YAC doesn't concern me, despite the fact it was epic and we beat Iowa down pretty bad that night.   

The linebacker Gonzo beat was former Colt Pat Angerer.  Who was drafted in the early 2nd round, where Campbell is projected at his earliest.  Only difference is, despite having started and even stayed inside leverage on his man even until his settle then break, Pat didn't have the first step and change of direction to even being keeping pace with #11.  Result is a huge gain that had no chance of being limited.

Fast forward to 2022 and Nebraska tries hitting Iowa with the exact same play, let's count em', 16 years later...    Yeah, that hurt my soul typing that one out.    

Play I'm talking about starts at 3:23 mark.

 Campbell stays light on his feet, shoulders square, then opens and drives laterally VERY well to run this down.   My only gripes, First - being that I can be a bit of a prick about details, is the lack of hip sink from the WR which would have helped the sell AND the splits by the receivers.  Second - In the OSU clip, the Buckeyes have Teddy outside and Robo just inside the numbers while Gonzo damn near on the field hash working back into a positive (inside) break. 

 But still, that's a kid who ran a fucking 4.3 at the combine being tracked down by Campbell. It's about as impressive as a play that you'll find in coverage and starts to help me find some justification in the the hype around him.  

 edit:  Seems like there's a reason the current Iowa defense feels so familiar.  Phil Parker coached under Norm Parker for over 10 years.   It would follow that he would be versed in a defense his predecessor tailored for so long there.

Good points! The 1 thing the combines and workouts don't show is 1st step instinct.  A bad 1st step instinct can completely neuter how fast/quick some guys play at while a great 1st step instinct can help a guy like Ray Lewis that slid all the way down because he dared not to stand out in the 40.  Teams that aren't careful with that stuff (blowing off film for workout heroics) sure hand the Ravens a lot of good players. Remember Orlando Brown Jr's forgettable combines?  The guy was a 3rd round pick for Baltimore; and has started at RT and LT.  I think he's got about 4 Pro Bowls or so already. Now the Bengals just signed him for mega bucks. Point is watch the film.

Another big thing to remember as guys are moving up to a more complex game is - you're not drafting rear view mirror.  With the stuff scouts see on film and gather from the players' previous position coaches - what stuff makes a prospect ideal for your team?  And what could be some show-stoppers?  What's the work ethic?  Is he a student of the game that prepares and learns the cues that make him play with better 1st step instinct?  A lot goes into this.

- He was a prime athlete playing in a college system no where near as complex as what he's had to do in the NFL.

- His mental and coverage discipline getting in the way of him seeing more snaps.     I'm sure people beyond myself noticed him being subbed out on passing downs last season.   That shouldn't happen when you have wheels like him.  But it did, because he couldn't be trusted to hold his water, find coverage landmarks, correctly diagnose and go cover/down.   Basically to be a complete linebacker as opposed to a great athlete who runs down ball carriers.  

 Speaking of ILB's.   This was something @flugel and myself spoke on the phone about, but I also brought up on this board in the Prospects thread.     I've been working to get a better handle on Jack Campbell and the Iowa defensive system, and how he stacks up against other LB's that have come through there.   I made mention that their 2022 version reminded me quite a bit of the Hawkeyes days under Coach Norm Parker.   Leaning on a cover 2 base, not many personnel subs, very passive in their calls and lacking ideal DB's.    

 It's also no secret that RAS risers are a thing and I'm no fan of them.   So when I see Campbell post a good 3 cone or shuttle, I want to see that change of direction and first step lateral pursuit really show up at some point in game.  Otherwise I'm just going to think you're a combine warrior and little else.    Finally came across that play which had me find a bit of ease should JC drop to us or the Brownies trade up to late R2 and take him.    And this works perfectly because it's an apples to apples comparison across the board.  And yes, my memory is pretty damn fantastic for this sort of recall.  

 This was against coach Norm Parker in 2006.

 Offensive/Defensive personnel are the same.

Formation is the same.

Defensive call is the same.

Route(s) is/are the same.  

MLB being the matchup is the same. 

Only difference is in the actual player(s) themselves.  

 Some might call this H option, but I'd suspect they're wrong?    I say that because most any option route from the H/Z/Y, with a clearout from the perimeter, that means you're going to use the leverage of the LB against him and break this outside.  Who knows how Tressel tags this though, but I'm more familiar with the 50 H-option classic from Urban Meyer.    Anywho, called this a snag n drag.   First play is an example from one of the best possession receivers OSU has had the last 25 years.

Feel free to ignore anything after the catch.  The YAC doesn't concern me, despite the fact it was epic and we beat Iowa down pretty bad that night.   

The linebacker Gonzo beat was former Colt Pat Angerer.  Who was drafted in the early 2nd round, where Campbell is projected at his earliest.  Only difference is, despite having started and even stayed inside leverage on his man even until his settle then break, Pat didn't have the first step and change of direction to even being keeping pace with #11.  Result is a huge gain that had no chance of being limited.

Fast forward to 2022 and Nebraska tries hitting Iowa with the exact same play, let's count em', 16 years later...    Yeah, that hurt my soul typing that one out.    

Play I'm talking about starts at 3:23 mark.

 Campbell stays light on his feet, shoulders square, then opens and drives laterally VERY well to run this down.   My only gripes, First - being that I can be a bit of a prick about details, is the lack of hip sink from the WR which would have helped the sell AND the splits by the receivers.  Second - In the OSU clip, the Buckeyes have Teddy outside and Robo just inside the numbers while Gonzo damn near on the field hash working back into a positive (inside) break. 

 But still, that's a kid who ran a fucking 4.3 at the combine being tracked down by Campbell. It's about as impressive as a play that you'll find in coverage and starts to help me find some justification in the the hype around him.  

 edit:  Seems like there's a reason the current Iowa defense feels so familiar.  Phil Parker coached under Norm Parker for over 10 years.   It would follow that he would be versed in a defense his predecessor tailored for so long there.

@ballpeen said:

I agree.  I don't think all of the players mentioned will be let go after this season, but probably 2.  As for JOK, he got a ND bump   At least it seems so.  He needs to pick it up to meet the hype.  I am not saying he is bad, but he is a long way from being a 5 time pro bowler.  Maybe better D line play will keep him out of the weeds.

I think for JOK it was a question of System... Joe Woods seems to love to glorify the DB's and everything else seems to take a back seat with him.. I thought woods was a bad choice from the start... You cant build a stalwart defense in reverse.. You go Dline.. Linbacker.. then secondary... Not the other way around.. At least Marty understood that... And I was not a Marty fan...

@flugel said:

I wouldn't mind seeing an x-factor on this defense that causes turnovers.  I don't think we've produced a lot of turnovers the last couple year.  I know some people don't think LBer is a BIG need - and it's not. They're right.  However, these can be the type of guys with great instincts and ideal athleticism that can make stuff happen. Look at the Henley highlights and you'll him causing turnovers the very first play.  I had hoped JOK would be this for us - and he still might if he can stay healthy.  

I agree.  I don't think all of the players mentioned will be let go after this season, but probably 2.  As for JOK, he got a ND bump   At least it seems so.  He needs to pick it up to meet the hype.  I am not saying he is bad, but he is a long way from being a 5 time pro bowler.  Maybe better D line play will keep him out of the weeds.

@sdbacker80 said:

I’d be surprised if Taki Walker and Phillips are on the roster in 2024.  And the trio can’t be counted on to stay healthy in 2023. 
 

A third round developmental guy isn’t really a luxury and probably a necessity.  We may find someone here that can plug and play well Day 1 too. 

I wouldn't mind seeing an x-factor on this defense that causes turnovers.  I don't think we've produced a lot of turnovers the last couple year.  I know some people don't think LBer is a BIG need - and it's not. They're right.  However, these can be the type of guys with great instincts and ideal athleticism that can make stuff happen. Look at the Henley highlights and you'll him causing turnovers the very first play.  I had hoped JOK would be this for us - and he still might if he can stay healthy.  

@sdbacker80 said:

I’d be surprised if Taki Walker and Phillips are on the roster in 2024.  And the trio can’t be counted on to stay healthy in 2023. 
 

A third round developmental guy isn’t really a luxury and probably a necessity.  We may find someone here that can plug and play well Day 1 too. 

That could be.

One thought on backers.  I think it is safe to say that as things stand today, our D-line is better than last year.  At least the interior for sure.  Edge remains to be seen.  Clowny didn't get much love, but the guy was a very good run defender.

So, with the improvements mentioned, the backers as they stand today are going to be better. Unless your name is Ray Lewis, a backer is going to have a hard time if guards are consistently getting on them.  Especially given that backers in general have gotten smaller in size over the last 10 years.  This isn't just a Browns thing.  Now, a guy like Phillips might be better than simply an OK guy at the position at best and may become pretty darn good at the position....insert any other name you want.  The point remains the same.  Unless they are exceptional, backers need the D line creating some roadblocks.  Backers look better when they know what hole the back is going to have to take rather than sit in limbo to see what hole he is going to take.

He already seems one of the draft-day-3 hits that we need to string together to be successful long-term. Fields, DPJ, AJGreen.. Here's hoping one of Woods / Thomas / Jerome Ford becomes useful.

A third round developmental guy isn’t really a luxury and probably a necessity.  We may find someone here that can plug and play well Day 1 too. 

Perhaps they'll go with only 4 LB's, but given last season's injuries I'd find that hard to believe. 

I'm not sure we can do better than JP at LB5 without using one of those day2 picks.  Perhaps a day3 flier and go with the rookie both looking to the future and cap savings over JP?

@gumby73 said:

Berry would need to raise his drafting age limits..The only Backer that fits it, is Ivan Pace from Natty.. Actually..

To'o To'o, Dorian Williams, Dalyan Henley,Owen Pappoe & Noah Sewell all have a better age scores than Jack Campbell, if he's still keeping score .. 

Berry needs to stick to keeping his GM job, over age limits..imho.. Schwartz has to see this ILB group as a hot mess past Anthony Walker, just like last season..

At least, ST ace Matthew Adams looks & plays like a LB'er..    does he see any ILB/Mike reps?

You're right - that guy certainly looks like a LBer.     

Would love it if we had a chance to draft Henley.  If you get a chance watch that video of Henley I shared earlier in the thread.  From the very first play, count how many turnovers he forced and/or recovered/intercepted.  He has the same body type and frame as Mike Johnson had with a little better agility.  Similar instincts, vision and explosiveness.  Mike Johnson was an ILB when we had a 3 man front and a MLB when we had a 4 man front (excelled at both).  I really believe this guy can be an ideal ILB for us.  

@sdbacker80 said:

I’d still like a Mike with one of our early picks.  

Berry would need to raise his drafting age limits..The only Backer that fits it, is Ivan Pace from Natty.. Actually..

To'o To'o, Dorian Williams, Dalyan Henley,Owen Pappoe & Noah Sewell all have a better age scores than Jack Campbell, if he's still keeping score .. 

Berry needs to stick to keeping his GM job, over age limits..imho.. Schwartz has to see this ILB group as a hot mess past Anthony Walker, just like last season..

At least, ST ace Matthew Adams looks & plays like a LB'er..    does he see any ILB/Mike reps?

@orion said:

And that takes the final major need off of the critical list.  (saw that at work yesterday)

So, on paper, Berry has hit every critical need, with one week left in March.  DT, DE, MLB, S, WR, #2TE, ST gunner.  These guys have been in the league and can supposedly plug themselves right in and play.  But just because it's off the critical list doesn't mean it doesn't need attention.  Certainly MLB needs a future starter.  And all of those other positions are fair game if the BPA plays one of those spots.  But we don't go into the draft in critical condition anywhere.  Of course we stepped back from pick 42 to 74 in trading for our new 3rd year slot type WR...but it addresses a need.

(blow my own horn)  I'd been saying that this is an important year for keeping management jobs.  We had a lot of holes to fill and picks 42 & 98 (and later) to fill them all.  Second and third day draft picks were not going to play at a high enough level for management to keep their jobs.  They were going to HAVE TO use the FA tool.  And use it they have.  Now everyone can calmly see what the middle of the draft leaves on the table for them.

I agree.  Jobs are on the line.  I'd bet dollars to donuts Haslam has said as much behind closed doors. I think that was a reason we have looked for vet players.

Now with needs more or less addressed, as you said, we can enter the draft, be it at 74 with clear heads and just look for the best mid round players on the board and not be driven by trying to fill holes.  That is when you miss on those mid round guys who pan out.

Lucky for us, many feel a hole at backer still  exists, and the mid rounds is an ideal spot to find backers and a few other positions that aren't the sexy picks like QB and receiver.  Nobody gets very excited if the team selects a LB or guard in the first round.  Take one in the 3rd-4th round and it looks pretty good.

@dutch-oven said:

Anthony Walker is coming back, signs for a year with the Browns. 

And that takes the final major need off of the critical list.  (saw that at work yesterday)

So, on paper, Berry has hit every critical need, with one week left in March.  DT, DE, MLB, S, WR, #2TE, ST gunner.  These guys have been in the league and can supposedly plug themselves right in and play.  But just because it's off the critical list doesn't mean it doesn't need attention.  Certainly MLB needs a future starter.  And all of those other positions are fair game if the BPA plays one of those spots.  But we don't go into the draft in critical condition anywhere.  Of course we stepped back from pick 42 to 74 in trading for our new 3rd year slot type WR...but it addresses a need.

(blow my own horn)  I'd been saying that this is an important year for keeping management jobs.  We had a lot of holes to fill and picks 42 & 98 (and later) to fill them all.  Second and third day draft picks were not going to play at a high enough level for management to keep their jobs.  They were going to HAVE TO use the FA tool.  And use it they have.  Now everyone can calmly see what the middle of the draft leaves on the table for them.

@flugel said:

I like Jack a lot.  I think he also had the best 3 cone time.  Tell you what though, scroll up and look at the Daiyan Henley highlights I shared in this thread,  Enjoy!

Henley? Watching his highlights says "Owusu-Koramoah" to me. The highlights of both are eerily similar to a huge degree. Incredible intuitiveness. athleticism, explosion, strength, both excellent tacklers, etc etc. I'm old school, an athletic big buttkicker has always seemed like my preference. Having said that, lol, Dick Butkus was only 6'3", 245 lbs. The real key is finding those players who have the ability, have been productive, who LOVE THE GAME AGGRESSIVELY.

@calfoxwc said:

Jack Campbell reminds me very much of Zaven Collins, out of Tulsa, drafted by Arizona in the first round in 2021. Very, very similar. Collins has really been productive in the NFL with Arizona - probably a good look at how good Campbell can be.

Collins was 6'4", 260 lbs at the combine. 122" broad jump, and a 35" vertical jump. Ran 4.67 in the forty.

Campbell....6'5", 249  lbs, ..........................128" Broad jump, ........... 37" vertical. 4.65 in the forty.

for fun, I will say that Jack Lambert was 6'4", 223 I believe was his weight in college.

Watched him a lot in college. He was...eh....viciously dominant. lol. Nice guy though. Away from football.

Drew Sanders could be my Jack Lambert kind of pick if I was into doing a mock draft, which ...nah. Don't care.

I think my linebacker favorites in this draft would be Sanders and Campbell.

I like Jack a lot.  I think he also had the best 3 cone time.  Tell you what though, scroll up and look at the Daiyan Henley highlights I shared in this thread,  Enjoy!

@flugel said:

Here's more assessments/results for Campbell

Jack Campbell reminds me very much of Zaven Collins, out of Tulsa, drafted by Arizona in the first round in 2021. Very, very similar. Collins has really been productive in the NFL with Arizona - probably a good look at how good Campbell can be.

Collins was 6'4", 260 lbs at the combine. 122" broad jump, and a 35" vertical jump. Ran 4.67 in the forty.

Campbell....6'5", 249  lbs, ..........................128" Broad jump, ........... 37" vertical. 4.65 in the forty.

for fun, I will say that Jack Lambert was 6'4", 223 I believe was his weight in college.

Watched him a lot in college. He was...eh....viciously dominant. lol. Nice guy though. Away from football.

Drew Sanders could be my Jack Lambert kind of pick if I was into doing a mock draft, which ...nah. Don't care.

I think my linebacker favorites in this draft would be Sanders and Campbell.

@flugel said:

DE in his first season with the Ducks. Converted to TE for 2020, rotated between positions in 2021, returned to defensive side of the ball in 2022

Great.  He can play TE too.  Can he run block? 

@orion said:

umm...gimme this guy please.  Big guy.  Runs fast.

This was an ILB thread but I'll happy to look him up for you (especially since it listed 40 times for all LBs).  Spent one year at Miami before transferring and redshirting and played DE in his first season with the Ducks. Converted to TE for 2020, rotated between positions in 2021, returned to defensive side of the ball in 2022.  He's listed as the 11th ranked OLB by Lindy's Mag with a grade with a 6.7.  They have him with a 4th round projection listed at 6'4" 270 lbs. Prior to the Indy Combines his best 40 time was a 4.59, which he bettered to 4.49 at a body weight of 260 pounds.  All that written may not match your enthusiasm; but the very next page honors him as their Sleeper to watch.  They basically say that if he was allowed to stay at his natural position of DE he would be a lot more technically polished.  It adds his outstanding athletic traits suggest he could outperform his draft slot.  That wouldn't suck to draft a guy that outperforms his draft slot would it?  Now let's get you some stuff you can see and hear.

Back in the day, Casey Kasem would have said from Oregon to Orion here's a wonderful football tribute from DJ Johnson to a Cleveland Browns fan that really knows what's he talking about.  You might want to mute the volume though...

NOW, this guy is very enthusiastic about OLB/DE DJ Johnson

Want more? Here's more...

@flugel said:

DJ Johnson (Oregon)   6'4   260   9"    33 1/4"    4.49/40

umm...gimme this guy please.  Big guy.  Runs fast.

@flugel said:

Here's more assessments/results for Campbell

Captain Jack's explosion numbers must be freakish level considering he weighted in at 249lbs .. ?

Arkansas' LB Drew Sanders.. played Edge at Bama.. He showed in combine drills he's still got some bend coming off a corner..

 maybe a little Clay Matthews in this kid's tape