@ballpeen said:

I agree on Otto, but that is because he is our guy.

At this point it is kind of like talking about President Millard Fillmore. If they even know, nobody cares about Millard.

? I hear ya!  Even going back as far as Sipe and Kosar in the 80s is stretching how far back we should be going.  Unfortunately, that's how sad things became after them with a couple very temporary false hopes here and there.

@flugel said:

Thanks for taking me back to the golden era of following this team!  True, I loved watching Bernie and what he could do in spite of his 85 pound cleats and injury altered mechanics/delivery later on.  He overcame imperfections extremely well with vision.  If you're gonna beat a blitz - you better have great vision starting with the pre-snap look at what's in front of you.  Bernie excelled at it while Infante designed the offense to make that easy for him. Ever notice QBs that see the field best get called "cerebral"?  Our other Kardiac Kid at QB also overcame imperfections like the weak arm nonsense. Brian Sipe threw for over 4132 yards and 30 TDs back when such a thing was unheard of with a completion percentage over 60% in 1980. 

Unfortunately, people are only all about TODAY when they talk about QBs like I just did with KC's St Patrick.   When you think about it - how many decades and rule changes ago was the 80s? Guys in their 20s and 30s don't give a rat about what happened before 1990.  Having said that, the QB who never gets ANY credit at all for leading Cleveland to a Pro Football Championship/Title Game all 10 years of his career (and won 7 of them - including 3 in the NFL in just 6 years of that league) is Otto Graham. The significance of that was it was also the 1st 10 years of this Pro Football franchise. Having that leader at QB made participating in Championships Otto-matic.  Nobody ever puts him in the GOAT QB discussions in here or nationally because he gets era snobbed.  If you hear any thunder from above - that's Gipper growling about it.

I agree on Otto, but that is because he is our guy.

At this point it is kind of like talking about President Millard Fillmore. If they even know, nobody cares about Millard.

GO BROWNS  !    .... and  GO GUARDIANS too ! 

.....  Also on TBB also on here,  "just a click away".    ....... (Did anyone here get that ? )  Just curious.     

@nickers said:

Good ol'Gipper!... as at odds as we were.. I miss that guy... He was fun to banter with...

Yup.  I miss him.  He could throw you under the bus.  But he'd also stand in front of it for ya too.  And I miss Tour...a kinder, gentler Gipper.  Both brothers to us all.

@nickers said:

Good ol'Gipper!... as at odds as we were.. I miss that guy... He was fun to banter with...

I miss that guy too. Probably my favorite poster to follow on this board!

I watched a little Phil Rivers being out in San Diego.  Phil was Bernie (aside from Barking at 300 Lb defensive lineman) and if Bernie had better luck with injuries he was in that trajectory. 
 

@flugel said:

Thanks for taking me back to the golden era of following this team!  True, I loved watching Bernie and what he could do in spite of his 85 pound cleats and injury altered mechanics/delivery later on.  He overcame imperfections extremely well with vision.  If you're gonna beat a blitz - you better have great vision starting with the pre-snap look at what's in front of you.  Bernie excelled at it while Infante designed the offense to make that easy for him. Ever notice QBs that see the field best get called "cerebral"?  Our other Kardiac Kid at QB also overcame imperfections like the weak arm nonsense. Brian Sipe threw for over 4132 yards and 30 TDs back when such a thing was unheard of with a completion percentage over 60% in 1980. 

Unfortunately, people are only all about TODAY when they talk about QBs like I just did with KC's St Patrick.   When you think about it - how many decades and rule changes ago was the 80s? Guys in their 20s and 30s don't give a rat about what happened before 1990.  Having said that, the QB who never gets ANY credit at all for leading Cleveland to a Pro Football Championship/Title Game all 10 years of his career (and won 7 of them - including 3 in the NFL in just 6 years of that league) is Otto Graham. The significance of that was it was also the 1st 10 years of this Pro Football franchise. Having that leader at QB made participating in Championships Otto-matic.  Nobody ever puts him in the GOAT QB discussions in here or nationally because he gets era snobbed.  If you hear any thunder from above - that's Gipper growling about it.

Good ol'Gipper!... as at odds as we were.. I miss that guy... He was fun to banter with...

@nickers said:

It's hilarious to me that Mahomo gets all the credit for no look passes when Kosar was doing it 30 some years earlier and making a living at it... Someone should show Mahomo old videos of Kosar and his no look side arm passes.. they were a thing of improvised beauty... I'll never forget when Dexter Manly had Kosar smothered at the LOS and Kosar threw a pass literally blindfolded 15 yards in to Brian Brennans hands for a nice gainer... I looked at my Father and said.. "Jesus Christ , Did you see that?.. We were both going nuts...

Thanks for taking me back to the golden era of following this team!  True, I loved watching Bernie and what he could do in spite of his 85 pound cleats and injury altered mechanics/delivery later on.  He overcame imperfections extremely well with vision.  If you're gonna beat a blitz - you better have great vision starting with the pre-snap look at what's in front of you.  Bernie excelled at it while Infante designed the offense to make that easy for him. Ever notice QBs that see the field best get called "cerebral"?  Our other Kardiac Kid at QB also overcame imperfections like the weak arm nonsense. Brian Sipe threw for over 4132 yards and 30 TDs back when such a thing was unheard of with a completion percentage over 60% in 1980. 

Unfortunately, people are only all about TODAY when they talk about QBs like I just did with KC's St Patrick.   When you think about it - how many decades and rule changes ago was the 80s? Guys in their 20s and 30s don't give a rat about what happened before 1990.  Having said that, the QB who never gets ANY credit at all for leading Cleveland to a Pro Football Championship/Title Game all 10 years of his career (and won 7 of them - including 3 in the NFL in just 6 years of that league) is Otto Graham. The significance of that was it was also the 1st 10 years of this Pro Football franchise. Having that leader at QB made participating in Championships Otto-matic.  Nobody ever puts him in the GOAT QB discussions in here or nationally because he gets era snobbed.  If you hear any thunder from above - that's Gipper growling about it.

@orion said:

That right there should've been the follow-up question.  Because after the game he was asked if he knew that there was no running back on the field...and he said Yes.  Which was bullshit.  Bullshit because of your question.  No coach would do that on purpose.  As I recall, they were in a semi hurry up mode and they just completed a pass a little short of the 1st down so Murmur wanted them to hurry to the line and run a play up the gut for the 1st down.  He obviously spaced it out that he had no RB in the game for the previous plays.  But the kind reporter didn't follow up.

We've had coaches make some dumb bell calls.  Murmur's call can be chalked-up to Heat Of The Moment.  But Mike Pettine...he was the total other end of the spectrum.  He had all the time in the world to make his dumb bell call.  Against Atlanta, there's one play left before halftime.  So he sends the kicker out there to attempt a 63 yard FG...while the Falcons place Devin Hester in the end zone.  Now, our kicker (forget his name right now) wasn't known for having an incredible leg or anything....so I'm sitting there saying, What the hell are we doing?  They snap it, he kicks it, and Hester catches it.  But Thank God that the Falcons had a dumb bell coach too...because he called time out just before the snap to Ice the kicker.  Falcon fans were wondering Why did we call TO?  They were salivating for Hester to run it back.  Remember, for a FG, everybody is at the center of the field blocking.  There isn't a gunner or two like a punt.  So I'm like Thank God!  Now that we've all seen that we're going to punt.  But Fuck-Nooo...Pettine sends the kicker right the fuck back out there.  THIS time however, Hester takes off running with the thing, and of course, it's looking for all the world like he's going in for the score, when at the last second he had to make one final zag...and Bitonio, who later said, I Just Kept Runnin'...bowled into him.  

In reality, Pettine should've been fired the next morning too (like Hue and his backwards pass call)...because he proved that he can't properly access a situation...and that he can't learn from his mistakes.

I was thinking about skipping next week's forgiveness therapy session....but I'd better go.   

? I think it's a good idea to attend that forgiveness therapy session.  We've been through a lot following this team - haven't we?  We're still here my man!!!!!

@flugel said:

It amazes me too Nicks!   The most underrated intangible in football is vision IMO.  Teams with good eye discipline don't tackle or pursue ball carriers with their heads down. Good tacklers always keep their head up.   

RBs that tend to find more daylight than others not only read the blocks better; but they also see where the least resistance is way up ahead. Barry Sanders comes to mind.  Put a blind fold on him and he's probably gonna look like Trent Richardson running with his head down for no gain again.  WRs?  How about Jerry Rice after the catch?  How does a guy always play faster than the stop watch clocks him at?  During his stance and glance at what's in front of him  - he already sees/knows where he's going after looking the ball into his hands.  

How does a QB throw someone open?  That can start as early as his pre-snap read.  He sees where he has to throw it and gets it there.  He also knows if he has to adjust and what/where his other options will be.  When Patrick Mahomes throws a no look pass - that's not possible without first visualizing where the player was and then anticipating where the player will be all the while knowing there won't be a defender in position to stop him from completing.  That's pretty freakin unique.

Instinctive defensive players have great vision.  

It's hilarious to me that Mahomo gets all the credit for no look passes when Kosar was doing it 30 some years earlier and making a living at it... Someone should show Mahomo old videos of Kosar and his no look side arm passes.. they were a thing of improvised beauty... I'll never forget when Dexter Manly had Kosar smothered at the LOS and Kosar threw a pass literally blindfolded 15 yards in to Brian Brennans hands for a nice gainer... I looked at my Father and said.. "Jesus Christ , Did you see that?.. We were both going nuts...

@nickers said:

It always amazes the lack of fundamentals you see in today's sports and the lack of discipline... Even the basics kids would learn in Jr high and high school seems to get lost by the wayside.. My nephew for example is a text book tackler... solid body placement and wrapping up ... Never out of positioning ... always around the ball... And I see guys like J. Johnson tanking on plays.. Whiffing hopelessly!! Always caught with his pants down... pitiful...

It amazes me too Nicks!   The most underrated intangible in football is vision IMO.  Teams with good eye discipline don't tackle or pursue ball carriers with their heads down. Good tacklers always keep their head up.   

RBs that tend to find more daylight than others not only read the blocks better; but they also see where the least resistance is way up ahead. Barry Sanders comes to mind.  Put a blind fold on him and he's probably gonna look like Trent Richardson running with his head down for no gain again.  WRs?  How about Jerry Rice after the catch?  How does a guy always play faster than the stop watch clocks him at?  During his stance and glance at what's in front of him  - he already sees/knows where he's going after looking the ball into his hands.  

How does a QB throw someone open?  That can start as early as his pre-snap read.  He sees where he has to throw it and gets it there.  He also knows if he has to adjust and what/where his other options will be.  When Patrick Mahomes throws a no look pass - that's not possible without first visualizing where the player was and then anticipating where the player will be all the while knowing there won't be a defender in position to stop him from completing.  That's pretty freakin unique.

Instinctive defensive players have great vision.  

@flugel said:

what football coach would ever give a guy the 1st handoff of his life in an NFL game?

That right there should've been the follow-up question.  Because after the game he was asked if he knew that there was no running back on the field...and he said Yes.  Which was bullshit.  Bullshit because of your question.  No coach would do that on purpose.  As I recall, they were in a semi hurry up mode and they just completed a pass a little short of the 1st down so Murmur wanted them to hurry to the line and run a play up the gut for the 1st down.  He obviously spaced it out that he had no RB in the game for the previous plays.  But the kind reporter didn't follow up.

We've had coaches make some dumb bell calls.  Murmur's call can be chalked-up to Heat Of The Moment.  But Mike Pettine...he was the total other end of the spectrum.  He had all the time in the world to make his dumb bell call.  Against Atlanta, there's one play left before halftime.  So he sends the kicker out there to attempt a 63 yard FG...while the Falcons place Devin Hester in the end zone.  Now, our kicker (forget his name right now) wasn't known for having an incredible leg or anything....so I'm sitting there saying, What the hell are we doing?  They snap it, he kicks it, and Hester catches it.  But Thank God that the Falcons had a dumb bell coach too...because he called time out just before the snap to Ice the kicker.  Falcon fans were wondering Why did we call TO?  They were salivating for Hester to run it back.  Remember, for a FG, everybody is at the center of the field blocking.  There isn't a gunner or two like a punt.  So I'm like Thank God!  Now that we've all seen that we're going to punt.  But Fuck-Nooo...Pettine sends the kicker right the fuck back out there.  THIS time however, Hester takes off running with the thing, and of course, it's looking for all the world like he's going in for the score, when at the last second he had to make one final zag...and Bitonio, who later said, I Just Kept Runnin'...bowled into him.  

In reality, Pettine should've been fired the next morning too (like Hue and his backwards pass call)...because he proved that he can't properly access a situation...and that he can't learn from his mistakes.

I was thinking about skipping next week's forgiveness therapy session....but I'd better go.   

@orion said:

How 'bout when he called a running play with no running back on the field.  The TE (Alex Smith?) lined up in the backfield and promptly fumbled the handoff....and stated after the game that he had never taken a handoff.    I mean, not for nothin', and not excusing Murmur for the dumb call....but what football player has NEVER taken a handoff in his life?   Granted, he may not know where to run once he got the ball....but he couldn't figure out how to take a handoff?   My 7 year old Grandson was taught that this past March in flag football practice.  (of course none of 'em did it 'the right way' during the games.    It's like talking to the cat.)  

Great point!  I can't help thinking what football coach would ever give a guy the 1st handoff of his life in an NFL game?  Sounds like they didn't even do any handoff drills (or include him in them if they did) during the week of practice leading up to the game. Understanding that, it was ill-advisable to give him a handoff when the offense ran plays against the scout team later in the practice session.  Waiting to do it in a game?  Our Head Coach was a hollow dome - the fumble was inevitable.

@orion said:

How 'bout when he called a running play with no running back on the field.  The TE (Alex Smith?) lined up in the backfield and promptly fumbled the handoff....and stated after the game that he had never taken a handoff.    I mean, not for nothin', and not excusing Murmur for the dumb call....but what football player has NEVER taken a handoff in his life?   Granted, he may not know where to run once he got the ball....but he couldn't figure out how to take a handoff?   My 7 year old Grandson was taught that this past March in flag football practice.  (of course none of 'em did it 'the right way' during the games.    It's like talking to the cat.)  

It always amazes the lack of fundamentals you see in today's sports and the lack of discipline... Even the basics kids would learn in Jr high and high school seems to get lost by the wayside.. My nephew for example is a text book tackler... solid body placement and wrapping up ... Never out of positioning ... always around the ball... And I see guys like J. Johnson tanking on plays.. Whiffing hopelessly!! Always caught with his pants down... pitiful...

@flugel said:

Peppermint Patty Shurnur

How 'bout when he called a running play with no running back on the field.  The TE (Alex Smith?) lined up in the backfield and promptly fumbled the handoff....and stated after the game that he had never taken a handoff.    I mean, not for nothin', and not excusing Murmur for the dumb call....but what football player has NEVER taken a handoff in his life?   Granted, he may not know where to run once he got the ball....but he couldn't figure out how to take a handoff?   My 7 year old Grandson was taught that this past March in flag football practice.  (of course none of 'em did it 'the right way' during the games.    It's like talking to the cat.)  

@flugel said:

Indeed!  I'm guessing Barbara Streisand didn't have any of this in mind when she sang "The Way We Were."   To this day, I've never made any sense out of Bob Slowik's gigantic coverage cushions in forfeiting any right/privilege for our corners to compete in 1999.  It was like the guy thought we were playing against Heath Schuler every week.

Just when I thought I've seen everything that could possibly go wrong - I watched a blade of grass tackle FB Owen Marecic all by itself.  

Then there was the game at Indianapolis when Peppermint Patty Shurnur was our HC and OC.  It's late the in 4th quarter against the 31st ranked Defense vrs the run at Indy's 38 yard line with the Browns down by a little more than 7 points with a 4th and 1 situation.  Shurmur decided to punt and the ball went right into the end zone as everyone but Shurmur knew it would.  My dad, from his hospice bed at home, said "WHAT A PUSSY!" That was the last time we watched the Browns play together. 

Speaking of Shurmur, Colt McCoy was hit so hard by James Harrison he needed a smelling salts wake up. The only person in the stadium that didn't hear or see the collision was the guy calling our plays on the sideline (Shurmur).  That being the case, he only let McCoy sit 1 play out before putting him right back out there.  I'm surprised the rest of our opponents weren't playing "Here Comes Santa Claus" over the loud speakers every time that offense took the field.

All that said, this is a different team and I am looking forward to the 2023 season.  

Patty cakes Murmur... Nice man.. But has to be about the most unprepared coach next to Hulless Toe Jackson.. I had a good belly laugh when you reminded us of how Owen Marecic got tackled by a blade of grass.. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Heath Shuler and Rick Mirer both hailed as the next Joe Montana or some shit I recall?... They were closer to Todd Marijuanavich.

@orion said:

He should've been fired the next morning!  He proved that he just plain did not comprehend just how important a win over the Steelers is to the people in the stands...and to Browns fans all over the world.  They are our arch rivals that have pushed our faces in the mud for decades.  You don't call a backwards pass on 1st and goal from the one yard line in OT against the Steelers and expect to be employed for even one more day.  But Noooo.  He's the one coach that Trigguh Finguh Jimmuh didn't fire.  The dumbest one of 'em all.  The Quarterback Fucker-Upper.

I've been working on the attribute of forgiveness of late...I think I'm making real progress.  

Indeed!  I'm guessing Barbara Streisand didn't have any of this in mind when she sang "The Way We Were."   To this day, I've never made any sense out of Bob Slowik's gigantic coverage cushions in forfeiting any right/privilege for our corners to compete in 1999.  It was like the guy thought we were playing against Heath Schuler every week.

Just when I thought I've seen everything that could possibly go wrong - I watched a blade of grass tackle FB Owen Marecic all by itself.  

Then there was the game at Indianapolis when Peppermint Patty Shurnur was our HC and OC.  It's late in the 4th quarter against the 31st ranked Defense vrs the run at Indy's 38 yard line with the Browns down by a little more than 7 points with a 4th and 1 situation.  Shurmur decided to punt and the ball went right into the end zone as everyone but Shurmur knew it would.  My dad, from his hospice bed at home, said "WHAT A PUSSY!" That was the last time we watched the Browns play together. 

Speaking of Shurmur, Colt McCoy was hit so hard by James Harrison he needed a smelling salts wake up. The only person in the stadium that didn't hear or see the collision was the guy calling our plays on the sideline (Shurmur).  That being the case, he only let McCoy sit 1 play out before putting him right back out there.  I'm surprised the rest of our opponents weren't playing "Here Comes Santa Claus" over the loud speakers every time that offense took the field.

All that said, this is a different team and I am looking forward to the 2023 season.  

@texasag1969 said:

That you Charlie Brown? You know you will get one more chance to kick that game winning 50 yd FG against 'em this year, right?

Yours truly,             Lucy?

Do not mention chances at a game-winning 50 yard FG on this board.

Sincerely,

The Ohio State fans among us

@orion said:

I've been working on the attribute of forgiveness of late...I think I'm making real progress.  

That you Charlie Brown? You know you will get one more chance to kick that game winning 50 yd FG against 'em this year, right?

Yours truly,             Lucy?

@texasag1969 said:

(pass from the 1 yd line) idiot.

He should've been fired the next morning!  He proved that he just plain did not comprehend just how important a win over the Steelers is to the people in the stands...and to Browns fans all over the world.  They are our arch rivals that have pushed our faces in the mud for decades.  You don't call a backwards pass on 1st and goal from the one yard line in OT against the Steelers and expect to be employed for even one more day.  But Noooo.  He's the one coach that Trigguh Finguh Jimmuh didn't fire.  The dumbest one of 'em all.  The Quarterback Fucker-Upper.

I've been working on the attribute of forgiveness of late...I think I'm making real progress.  

@fy56 said:

Going back to the AFCN... the Stealers have been getting a lot of hype. Too much...until some good news came out that eased my concerns.

Not according to the oddsmakers!

Steelers Favored for Last Place Finish

Pittsburgh Steelers Favored for Last Place Finish - Sports Illustrated Pittsburgh Steelers News, Analysis and More

I sure hope so, and hope they stay there for dozens of years (along with the Rats).

@jrb12711 said:

To expand further, the AFC in general is just loaded. Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert, Rodgers, Jackson in their own right could be the best QB in the NFL (although that belongs to Mahomes). Assuming Watson is who they hope to be, literally half the AFC have elite talent at the QB position. That's not even including Pittsburgh who is always competitive and Miami who could be poised to be an absolute problem on offense if Tua stays healthy. Should be a fun season to watch the sport, that's for sure.

No doubt the AFC is loaded, another factor the Pats didn't have to deal with.

Going back to the AFCN... the Stealers have been getting a lot of hype. Too much...until some good news came out that eased my concerns.

Not according to the oddsmakers!

Steelers Favored for Last Place Finish

Pittsburgh Steelers Favored for Last Place Finish - Sports Illustrated Pittsburgh Steelers News, Analysis and More

@fy56 said:

Too bad we won't have an easy path like New England always did being in a division where everyone else for years sucked big time.

This division is gonna be tough to deal with. Everyone will be good. The AFCN is the new black and blue division, as if it wasn't already.

To expand further, the AFC in general is just loaded. Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert, Rodgers, Jackson in their own right could be the best QB in the NFL (although that belongs to Mahomes). Assuming Watson is who they hope to be, literally half the AFC have elite talent at the QB position. That's not even including Pittsburgh who is always competitive and Miami who could be poised to be an absolute problem on offense if Tua stays healthy. Should be a fun season to watch the sport, that's for sure.

@gumby73 said:

IMO..

The top two position coaching hires of 2023, at the position they coach.. and still gets, little main media coverage

Joe Woods fired 1-9-23.. Jim Schwartz hired 1-17-23 

Mike Priefer fired 2-21-23.. Bubba Vetrone hired 2-23-23

Both got wrapped up early in the 2023 coaches hiring process.. and Finally, the browns didn't out wait themselves 

'Both of those hires - are outstanding. The Browns nailed both of them. Stefanski - not a fan at all.

Blanton Collier all those years back - was an OUTSTANDING teacher and leader. Stef is neither, so I don't see him being there long term.

   Bubba - he can see things on film, but he also is a teacher with fine points of communicating. That is special. They love the guy for good reason:

Now I'm just a guy who has always watched football, but I saw the difference in how Blanton Collier teachers, and a lot of head coaches over the years. Collier, on old b/w film, I remember him showing kids how the technical points of how to properly throw a football.  The results of HOW he approached was terrific - and they learned.

That is Bubba, imho. And Schwartz ? The difference is going to be amazing. The players will benefit from a very smart teacher who GETS IT. A few good articles, since I never got to play and don't know the x's and o's -

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2023/01/jim-schwartzs-scheme-magnifies-strengths-and-weaknesses-of-current-browns-roster-film-review.html

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2023/01/jim-schwartzs-scheme-magnifies-strengths-and-weaknesses-of-current-browns-roster-film-review.html