@vaportrail said:

@dutch-oven, @hoorta, @korsou-dawg

Still think I'm full of shit?

What the hell are you whining about? 

@vaportrail said:

Watson's career is over. He's going to stick it out because $150M, but the dude's shoulder is never going to be the same. He already had a noodle arm before the glenoid broke. I've never seen any case reports of a throwing athlete coming back from this injury to his throwing arm. If we get rid of Flacco, I'm going to lose my mind. 

Called it, absolutely.

I was giving him a chance to come back but even at work watching the game, I couldn't actually watch it because the Browns just looked bad. There was nothing to feel good about on offense, and now I'm worried about our D.

I look forward to this weekend to see how Watson does one last time, after this if he doesn't perform better than Weeden then I'll be waiting for the next qb to step in.

Same with running back, unless the line isn't making holes, Ford stops and hesitates too much form me.

@diehardbrownsfan1 said:

I don't think they know that you are an actual doctor.

A doctor you say ? hmm any idea wtf DR Trail is talking about ?

@vaportrail said:

@dutch-oven, @hoorta, @korsou-dawg

Still think I'm full of shit?

I don't think they know that you are an actual doctor.

Still think I'm full of shit?

@hoorta said:

You apparently haven't spent enough time on the Poli Board to fully grasp it KD..... There's several posters here who refuse to post there.  FWIW, there's really no "discussion" going on there. 

Without getting into too many details,  If you have a certain POV, you're one of their Cult.  Try to play in their sandbox with an opposing POV,  and get ready for a barrage of ad hominum attacks, libtard, or in my case a "drunk".  So please tell me how THAT enables intelligent discussion. It's essentially a Forum of unmoderated & mostly unverifiable conspiracy bullshit. 

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I will give a final non-Football reply here, since I do not intend to start posting on the other board, and nobody really cares about PJ anyway.

The only reason I wound up here on TBB, was my search for a place to talk with others who serious in their support of the Browns. The ONLY reason I am even aware of the poliboard, is the regular mocking posts thereof by Dutch and a few others here on the football side of things. I literally only had a quick look around some topics, and didn't find anything offensive. Just pro Trump, which I do not have a problem with. I do not intend to look any further. Name-calling certainly does not further discussion as you say, and I have no respect for it. However, I will say that if someone called me a traitor, my response would be worse than "drunk." It goes both ways.

I found the support for Israel heartwarming even, living in a world where 300,000 Arab and other muslim migrants can go out on the streets of London, and scant 'Itbah Al-Yahud' or 'Khaybar ya Yahod' which means slaughter the Jews. And we have seen similar such examples in formerly western cities around the world. These followed the October 7 attacks in Israel, which were the most vile and reprehensible I can remember in my lifetime. I find this beyond appalling, yet many people and news outlets keep making up excuses. Those I would call traitors, but I digress. 

Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that about half of Americans voted for Trump twice, and despite his apparent faults, he is significantly out-polling Biden, and anyone on the GOP side by miles. If I were American, and disagreed with him and his voters, I would be hell-bent on finding out why. 

The book I recommended should give the ones interested some insight, with the dichotomy between globalism and nationalism as a framework. 'America first' obviously makes the 2016 election a victory for nationalism. This was preceded by Brexit, and followed by elections in, France, Italy and more recently in The Netherlands. All massive victories for nationalism, which surprisingly, still come as a surprise to some. The book explains it better than I ever could.

The point of all this was already made in my first response to Dutch: it would be beneficial for people in general to have places where meaningful discussions about their views on culture and politics can be had. It requires being open to hear views you might disagree with. Dismissing those views beforehand is what creates 'echo chambers.' 

@korsou-dawg said:

It's not like calling someone a traitor is in any way enabling a discussion, and your response just proves my point about anti-Trumpers. Very unfortunate.

You apparently haven't spent enough time on the Poli Board to fully grasp it KD..... There's several posters here who refuse to post there.  FWIW, there's really no "discussion" going on there. 

Without getting into too many details,  If you have a certain POV, you're one of their Cult.  Try to play in their sandbox with an opposing POV,  and get ready for a barrage of ad hominum attacks, libtard, or in my case a "drunk".  So please tell me how THAT enables intelligent discussion. It's essentially a Forum of unmoderated & mostly unverifiable conspiracy bullshit. 

@korsou-dawg said:

Allegiance to what? To whom? 

I am not an anti-Trumper, so now I belong to "ThEm." What a laughably simplistic world view. I got news for you: most of the world doesn't give a damn about Trump or the US in general. 

I could write about the parallels I see between things going on in The Netherlands, where I am from, or the rest of western Europe. That would require a mature open-minded discussion on culture and politics, which you show no indication of wanting to have. An attitude like that is what creates an "echo chamber," which is what I was pointing out in the first place. 

I leave this discussion with a parting gift, some recommended reading: The Virtue of Nationalism by Israeli-American philosopher Yoram Hazony. It provides a background for the Trump election, and similar electoral results in Europe including Brexit. Globalism versus nationalism is THE dichotomy of our time. Not left/ right, liberal/ conservative, Rep/ Dem and so on. And certainly not pro- or anti-Trump ffs.

Back to football. Go Browns!

Nothing says "most of the world doesn't care about Trump or the US in general" and "I have no dog in this fight" like immediately doing a deep dive into the conversation you tell us you don't care about and definitely wasn't triggered by... ?

And when you go to the Poliboard for another one of your "random strolls", make sure to say hi to the mature and open-minded gents wearing red hats there for me. ?

But of course, go Browns. 

@vaportrail said:

And you'll notice that, when asked about the prognosis, the only thing he firmly commits to is that Watson will be cleared to throw in a year. That doc's a lot more uncertain when it comes to how well he'll throw. We don't know if Watson's injury is a Bankart lesion. We don't know how much of the glenoid is affected. What I learned is that Brees and Darnold had similar injuries, but even he is speculating that Watson's injury is worse. 

Like I've said before, I don't discount the idea that this injury could affect Watson's future.

I just figured I would post an actual doctor talking about the actual injury Watson suffered, just for more info for everyone. 

@korsou-dawg said:

Back to football. Go Browns!

Thank you.

@dutch-oven said:

I think its pretty apparent where your allegiance would lie if you weren't an "outsider", but that's a cute play of "I just moseyed on over and took a look around and my oh my!"... That or you feel a kindred spirit with that "specific group" and felt a need to defend it. One or the other. ?

And I didn't give a shit what those people thought in 2016, or now. 

Allegiance to what? To whom? 

I am not an anti-Trumper, so now I belong to "ThEm." What a laughably simplistic world view. I got news for you: most of the world doesn't give a damn about Trump or the US in general. 

I could write about the parallels I see between things going on in The Netherlands, where I am from, or the rest of western Europe. That would require a mature open-minded discussion on culture and politics, which you show no indication of wanting to have. An attitude like that is what creates an "echo chamber," which is what I was pointing out in the first place. 

I leave this discussion with a parting gift, some recommended reading: The Virtue of Nationalism by Israeli-American philosopher Yoram Hazony. It provides a background for the Trump election, and similar electoral results in Europe including Brexit. Globalism versus nationalism is THE dichotomy of our time. Not left/ right, liberal/ conservative, Rep/ Dem and so on. And certainly not pro- or anti-Trump ffs.

Back to football. Go Browns!

@dutch-oven said:

Here's what a doctor says about Watson's injury.

And you'll notice that, when asked about the prognosis, the only thing he firmly commits to is that Watson will be cleared to throw in a year. That doc's a lot more uncertain when it comes to how well he'll throw. We don't know if Watson's injury is a Bankart lesion. We don't know how much of the glenoid is affected. What I learned is that Brees and Darnold had similar injuries, but even he is speculating that Watson's injury is worse. 

Here's what a doctor says about Watson's injury.

@dutch-oven said:

In the first, you tried to tell us that there are many athletes who throw for a living who have had their careers end because of this injury.

Nowhere did I say that. Please reread my posts before making up a strawman. 

@bbedward said:

A single ncaa football player can’t be compared, though I don’t know the player or the case. Most ncaa players don’t have careers past their 4 college years, if that. Also depending on the time period they may not have had an arthroscopic procedure to repair it like they have nowadays. Arthroscopic procedures are not invasive and usually have little recovery time (6-12 weeks for Watson?)

Maybe if Watson kept playing on the shoulder and took more damage it’d be worse, the guy did go 14/14 with the broken shoulder against a top defense.

The injury is incredibly rare, and the documented cases we have of it show that it has ended the careers of athletes in sports where overhead throws aren't a big part of it. I understand that these can be arthroscopically repaired, but it's not really the surgery that I'm concerned about. Any ortho worth his salt will be able to get that thing aligned properly in the OR. What concerns me is the healing process after the surgery, which there isn't exactly a lot of control over.

This is a normal xray. The humerus is a ball that sits in the socket of the glenoid. Watson fractured the socket. See that glenohumeral joint space? It's not very big. When bones heal, they form a callus. So even if the surgeon sets this thing properly, it's still going to make a callus, which can affect the surface of that socket. It's not a stretch to say that this will impact his throwing mechanics. 

This picture above is going to happen inside that tiny glenohumeral joint space. I don't think his arm talent will ever be the same. 

@bbedward said:

Im not a doctor but I suspect rotator cuff injuries are more devastating - guys like roethlisburger and brees recovered from those.

I disagree. I'd compare it to a piston's bearing being fucked up or trying to build a house on a bad foundation. The glenohumeral joint is the fulcrum of the shoulder and upper arm. Small changes there can have big effects on every motion of the shoulder. 

@korsou-dawg said:

I've ventured around the poliboard recently, because the hatred it receives from yourself and others got me curious. Apparently the support for Trump there is your issue with it. 

When you say "specific group" do you mean the half of your country that voted for him, twice, and likely a third time? Implying this is somehow fringe seems almost as inaccurate as Dr. Vapor. In fact, maybe even more so. 

As an outsider, it seems that anti-Trump folks are far more likely to froth at the mouth in their fanaticism. It is a shame that there seems to be no place for discussing opposite views, like the poliboard could provide, in theory. 

LMAO maybe you should dig a little deeper ? and then keep your comments there

@korsou-dawg said:

It's not like calling someone a traitor is in any way enabling a discussion, and your response just proves my point about anti-Trumpers. Very unfortunate.

Touche'?

@korsou-dawg said:

I've ventured around the poliboard recently, because the hatred it receives from yourself and others got me curious. Apparently the support for Trump there is your issue with it. 

When you say "specific group" do you mean the half of your country that voted for him, twice, and likely a third time? Implying this is somehow fringe seems almost as inaccurate as Dr. Vapor. In fact, maybe even more so. 

As an outsider, it seems that anti-Trump folks are far more likely to froth at the mouth in their fanaticism. It is a shame that there seems to be no place for discussing opposite views, like the poliboard could provide, in theory. 

I think its pretty apparent where your allegiance would lie if you weren't an "outsider", but that's a cute play of "I just moseyed on over and took a look around and my oh my!"... That or you feel a kindred spirit with that "specific group" and felt a need to defend it. One or the other. ?

And I didn't give a shit what those people thought in 2016, or now. 

Maybe if Watson kept playing on the shoulder and took more damage it’d be worse, the guy did go 14/14 with the broken shoulder against a top defense.

Im not a doctor but I suspect rotator cuff injuries are more devastating - guys like roethlisburger and brees recovered from those.

@vaportrail said:

Both statements are true. I'm not sure why you see this as some kind of gotcha or where I've made something up. 

Because they are completely opposite statements.

In the first, you tried to tell us that there are many athletes who throw for a living who have had their careers end because of this injury. When asked to produce said list of players, you knew you couldn't, so you went to the second, which you state that this is such a rare injury, that there's no way Watson could recover from it. 

We get it, you are rooting for Watson's career to be over. No need for all these other theatrics. 

And who knows, you might be correct. As I've been saying since the initial reports of him having a shoulder injury on his throwing arm, shoulder injuries are tricky. 

@texasag1969 said:

There are not discussions there. Just fanatical traitor supporters. LOL!?

It's not like calling someone a traitor is in any way enabling a discussion, and your response just proves my point about anti-Trumpers. Very unfortunate.

Arguing about a dude that has done absolutely nothing as a Cleveland Brown while being paid a literal King's ransom is future D Bone's problem.

Your mileage may very.  

@korsou-dawg said:

I've ventured around the poliboard recently, because the hatred it receives from yourself and others got me curious. Apparently the support for Trump there is your issue with it. 

When you say "specific group" do you mean the half of your country that voted for him, twice, and likely a third time? Implying this is somehow fringe seems almost as inaccurate as Dr. Vapor. In fact, maybe even more so. 

As an outsider, it seems that anti-Trump folks are far more likely to froth at the mouth in their fanaticism. It is a shame that there seems to be no place for discussing opposite views, like the poliboard could provide, in theory. 

There are not discussions there. Just fanatical traitor supporters. LOL!?

@dutch-oven said:

Except this specific forum isn't just an echo chamber specifically made for the tender feelings of one specific group of people like that other forum.

I've ventured around the poliboard recently, because the hatred it receives from yourself and others got me curious. Apparently the support for Trump there is your issue with it. 

When you say "specific group" do you mean the half of your country that voted for him, twice, and likely a third time? Implying this is somehow fringe seems almost as inaccurate as Dr. Vapor. In fact, maybe even more so. 

As an outsider, it seems that anti-Trump folks are far more likely to froth at the mouth in their fanaticism. It is a shame that there seems to be no place for discussing opposite views, like the poliboard could provide, in theory. 

@vaportrail said:

Both statements are true. I'm not sure why you see this as some kind of gotcha or where I've made something up. 

LOL! You must have missed the "Logic" lecture during the Philosophy 101 class. ?