@dutch-oven said:

But if he sets up in the pocket and gets his knee blown out like Carson Palmer did in a playoff game vs the Steelers, you are fine with it? Got it. 

Did it "piss the bageezuz" out of you when Baker hurt his shoulder trying to tackle the defender he threw an interception to in 2021, or does this only apply to running quarterbacks?

But you are right, and we've gone over this numerous times, calling a run play/draw play with your quarterback down around your opponents ten yard line was not a smart call, and was just asking for him to get injured. 

I'm pretty certain he doesn't outrush Josh Allen or ever even come close to it.  Let's not pretend he's Michael Vick or Lamar Jackson either.  Watson ran a 4.66 forty while Drew Lock ran a 4.69 if we want to put it in perspective. 

I'd like to see if we can figure out how to use him the way Houston did. Here's his passing and rushing stats that split during the cut and paste; but you can still see the 1st 4 years were Houston and the last 2 were Cleveland 

SEASON	TEAM
2017	HOU
2018	HOU
2019	HOU
2020	HOU
2022	CLE
2023	CLE
Career

 

GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	LNG	SACK	RTG	QBR
7	126	204	61.8	1,699	8.3	19	8	72	19	103.0	83.7
16	345	505	68.3	4,165	8.2	26	9	73	62	103.1	61.8
15	333	495	67.3	3,852	7.8	26	12	54	44	98.0	70.5
16	382	544	70.2	4,823	8.9	33	7	77	49	112.4	63.7
6	99	170	58.2	1,102	6.5	7	5	46	20	79.1	40.4
6	105	171	61.4	1,115	6.5	7	4	59	17	84.3	42.9
66	1390	2089	66.5	16,756	8.0	118	45	77	211	100.8	-

 

Rushing

SEASON	TEAM
2017	HOU
2018	HOU
2019	HOU
2020	HOU
2022	CLE
2023	CLE
Career

 

GP	CAR	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	FD	FUM	LST
7	36	269	7.5	2	49	14	1	0
16	99	551	5.6	5	34	33	3	1
15	82	413	5.0	7	30	29	6	1
16	90	444	4.9	3	16	31	4	1
6	36	175	4.9	1	21	10	1	0
6	26	142	5.5	1	16	10	2	1
66	369	1,994	5.4	19	49	127	17	4

 

@dutch-oven said:

But if he sets up in the pocket and gets his knee blown out like Carson Palmer did in a playoff game vs the Steelers, you are fine with it? Got it. 

Did it "piss the bageezuz" out of you when Baker hurt his shoulder trying to tackle the defender he threw an interception to in 2021, or does this only apply to running quarterbacks?

But you are right, and we've gone over this numerous times, calling a run play/draw play with your quarterback down around your opponents ten yard line was not a smart call, and was just asking for him to get injured. 

Ohio State was ready for his legs.  What they weren't ready for was his passing precision.  His pose after every back breaking throw was the bow and arrow representing the bulls eye he just hit.    Same with Alabama.  What did Ohio State and Alabama have in common?  A multiplicity of 1st and 2nd round drafts on their defense.

@dutch-oven said:

Hell, how many sacks did Roethlisberger get out of in the first half of his career against us? 

That's it - my coping mechanisms are fired!

@canton-dawg said:

Here's the latest NFL body by Lasik from Crablegs:

2023   53.2% comp 264 yards 2 TD passes 3 INT 57.4 rating

2022   63.5% comp 868 yards 4 TD passes 5 INT 79.5 rating

We could be re-defining the question - Feeling crabby?

@orion said:

Look, I understand that a mobile QB is advantages over a non mobile QB (all else being equal).  I had to watch John Elway keep us out of 3 super bowls.  But Elway (& Steve Young) ran as a last resort.  We've got a guy at QB who thinks he's Nick Chubb.  He's gonna lower his shoulder and take a guy on and jump up and signal first down.  And HE'S got something that Elway & Young didn't have, the ability to slide...and when you do that NOBODY CAN TOUCH YOU.  

It just pisses the bageezuz out of me that our Quarter of a Billion dollar, 3 first round picks, most important person of the organization, Starting QB...gets himself hurt and out for the season because he's running around with the ball.  

Now, Paul Depodesta would tell me, "But it's THAT athleticism that makes him WORTH the money and draft picks."  To which I would tell Depo, "Then get me a backup QB that can lead us to a super bowl win because we're built to win now and I can't win a super bowl with your Athletic QB on injured reserve."  

But if he sets up in the pocket and gets his knee blown out like Carson Palmer did in a playoff game vs the Steelers, you are fine with it? Got it. 

Did it "piss the bageezuz" out of you when Baker hurt his shoulder trying to tackle the defender he threw an interception to in 2021, or does this only apply to running quarterbacks?

But you are right, and we've gone over this numerous times, calling a run play/draw play with your quarterback down around your opponents ten yard line was not a smart call, and was just asking for him to get injured. 

@flugel said:

Slight stretch here; but are any of Kurt Warner's 20 kids or so ready yet?  Believe it or not, I was often reminded Dan Marino was very difficult to sack (and the quick release was only part of it).  Brady wasn't easy to sack either.  Bernie wasn't as easy to sack as he looked either.  It's amazing what the combination of brain cells and vision can do for a QB.  

Today, I'm thinking Jared Goff and Matthew Stafford are what's left representing old school pocket.  I say that; but EVERY time Stafford seems to play Cleveland he pulls out this 3 times in a career Lamar Jacksonesque "you ain't sacking this."  It seemed like it was only exclusive to Cleveland. 

Hell, how many sacks did Roethlisberger get out of in the first half of his career against us? 

@dutch-oven said:

Hold your proverbial horses there... I never said it is safer scrambling, and I do get what Orion is saying. My point is I can name quite a few non-running quarterbacks whose careers were riddled with injuries they received from not scrambling or running on designed plays. 

And here's the thing: Offenses that feature Mobile quarterbacks are EVERYWHERE in high school and college football. There aren't many Joe Flacco's or Drew Bledsoe's anymore. 

Slight stretch here; but are any of Kurt Warner's 20 kids or so ready yet?  Believe it or not, I was often reminded Dan Marino was very difficult to sack (and the quick release was only part of it).  Brady wasn't easy to sack either.  Bernie wasn't as easy to sack as he looked either.  It's amazing what the combination of brain cells and vision can do for a QB.  

Today, I'm thinking Jared Goff and Matthew Stafford are what's left representing old school pocket.  I say that; but EVERY time Stafford seems to play Cleveland he pulls out this 3 times in a career Lamar Jacksonesque "you ain't sacking this."  It seemed like it was only exclusive to Cleveland. 

@orion said:

Look, I understand that a mobile QB is advantages over a non mobile QB (all else being equal).  I had to watch John Elway keep us out of 3 super bowls.  But Elway (& Steve Young) ran as a last resort.  We've got a guy at QB who thinks he's Nick Chubb.  He's gonna lower his shoulder and take a guy on and jump up and signal first down.  And HE'S got something that Elway & Young didn't have, the ability to slide...and when you do that NOBODY CAN TOUCH YOU.  

It just pisses the bageezuz out of me that our Quarter of a Billion dollar, 3 first round picks, most important person of the organization, Starting QB...gets himself hurt and out for the season because he's running around with the ball.  

Now, Paul Depodesta would tell me, "But it's THAT athleticism that makes him WORTH the money and draft picks."  To which I would tell Depo, "Then get me a backup QB that can lead us to a super bowl win because we're built to win now and I can't win a super bowl with your Athletic QB on injured reserve."  

A fucking men!

It just pisses the bageezuz out of me that our Quarter of a Billion dollar, 3 first round picks, most important person of the organization, Starting QB...gets himself hurt and out for the season because he's running around with the ball.  

Now, Paul Depodesta would tell me, "But it's THAT athleticism that makes him WORTH the money and draft picks."  To which I would tell Depo, "Then get me a backup QB that can lead us to a super bowl win because we're built to win now and I can't win a super bowl with your Athletic QB on injured reserve."  

@dutch-oven said:

Hold your proverbial horses there... I never said it is safer scrambling, and I do get what Orion is saying. My point is I can name quite a few non-running quarterbacks whose careers were riddled with injuries they received from not scrambling or running on designed plays. 

And here's the thing: Offenses that feature Mobile quarterbacks are EVERYWHERE in high school and college football. There aren't many Joe Flacco's or Drew Bledsoe's anymore. 

 You're not wrong, but the best athlete being your QB in high school has been a thing since I was a kid.  It's only the last 20 years (well, I was still a kid then too) that its sort of 'trickled up'... in a manner of speak.   Putting greater emphasis on athletic ability at the QB position.    

@tiamat63 said:

 I think the whole "safer scrambling vs in the pocket" is a bit overblown.   The biggest issue between elite passers and pocket presence vs not is the ability to more efficiently move the ball in the air and avoid shots they had no business taking in the first place.

Hold your proverbial horses there... I never said it is safer scrambling, and I do get what Orion is saying. My point is I can name quite a few non-running quarterbacks whose careers were riddled with injuries they received from not scrambling or running on designed plays. 

And here's the thing: Offenses that feature Mobile quarterbacks are EVERYWHERE in high school and college football. There aren't many Joe Flacco's or Drew Bledsoe's anymore. 

@dutch-oven said:

How about the most famous QB injury that happened in the pocket behind one of the best OLines in NFL history?

I'll take Joe Theismann's pulverized leg for $500, Alex... 

 And while you're certainly right, there's a reason that injury is so well known.  Next to Alex Smith, that sort of thing just doesn't happen.  

 I think the whole "safer scrambling vs in the pocket" is a bit overblown.   The biggest issue between elite passers and pocket presence vs not is the ability to more efficiently move the ball in the air and avoid shots they had no business taking in the first place.

 Indy with their young QB in AR15 is a prime example.  That kid lead himself into contact he had no business being involved in, and wouldn't have been had he been ready to be starting NFL QB.   But he wasn't, the Colts overdrafted him then rushed his play in risk of long term development and long term health.

@orion said:

Llamar Jackson

That's funny as fuck if that was intentional. That would actually be a cool name if you had a pet Llama ? Anybody that has played Sim City games knows that the fastest game speed is Llama, which makes it funny

@tiamat63 said:

In fairness to Orion, your examples above don't work because two of them played behind the worst Olines in the NFL the last 25 years.  

How about the most famous QB injury that happened in the pocket behind one of the best OLines in NFL history?

I'll take Joe Theismann's pulverized leg for $500, Alex... 

@orion said:

Sure, drop back passers get hurt too.  Brady missed a season, Rogers missed last season.  Llamar Jackson missed a lot of a season by getting hurt while in the pocket...not running.  But to me, having your QB running around....designing QB runs, etc....is adding a new level of injury danger to your most important guy in the organization.  And there's always the mental / emotional aspect of the defense's mindset when a QB is running around embarrassing them.  It makes the big fat guys want to smash the QB into pieces all the more.   And let's face it, Watson is no big, burly guy.  We had to play most of last season without him because he ran and took on tacklers.  

That's why we need a LT to prevent the joystick QB.  The more that habit is repeated the tougher it is to tame.   I wish someone would have drilled Elway all those times he left the pocket before any of those 3 Conference Championship games against the Browns.  

@dutch-oven said:

You like drop back passers, guys who stay in the pocket because you think that makes them safer...

David Carr, Tim Couch and Bernie Kosar all fit that description. 

Sure, drop back passers get hurt too.  Brady missed a season, Rogers missed last season.  Llamar Jackson missed a lot of a season by getting hurt while in the pocket...not running.  But to me, having your QB running around....designing QB runs, etc....is adding a new level of injury danger to your most important guy in the organization.  And there's always the mental / emotional aspect of the defense's mindset when a QB is running around embarrassing them.  It makes the big fat guys want to smash the QB into pieces all the more.   And let's face it, Watson is no big, burly guy.  We had to play most of last season without him because he ran and took on tacklers.  

@orion said:

Flacco is basically nothing like Watson.  This is a monkey wrench for the offense when the backup needs to play.  

Me, I prefer the drop back passer...like Flacco or Tom Brady.  The OLine knows where the QB will be.  They know he'll only run when time has completely run out and there is no other alternative.  I don't like my most important and most expensive player on my football team running around making big fat guys' eyes light up as they're looking for an angle to knock the guy into the blue tent.  But that's just me.  

 Flacco is more statue-esque, yes.  But don't let a couple designed runs and some work when play structure breaks down trick you into believing that either Flacco or Watson aren't drop back passers who work their eyes and arms first. 

 Passers with mobility have been across the NFL for a long time.  Steve Young, McNair, Mcnabb, Ben, Luck, Burrow, Mahomes, etc etc. 

@dutch-oven said:

You like drop back passers, guys who stay in the pocket because you think that makes them safer...

David Carr, Tim Couch and Bernie Kosar all fit that description. 

It isn't just that they are safer, you're limiting potential non-contact injuries.  People forget that RG3 knees were aggravated by his lateral cutting ability as much as they were some of the shots they took.   

In fairness to Orion, your examples above don't work because two of them played behind the worst Olines in the NFL the last 25 years.  

@orion said:

Flacco is basically nothing like Watson.  This is a monkey wrench for the offense when the backup needs to play.  

Me, I prefer the drop back passer...like Flacco or Tom Brady.  The OLine knows where the QB will be.  They know he'll only run when time has completely run out and there is no other alternative.  I don't like my most important and most expensive player on my football team running around making big fat guys' eyes light up as they're looking for an angle to knock the guy into the blue tent.  But that's just me.  

You like drop back passers, guys who stay in the pocket because you think that makes them safer...

David Carr, Tim Couch and Bernie Kosar all fit that description. 

@orion said:

Flacco is basically nothing like Watson.  This is a monkey wrench for the offense when the backup needs to play.  

Me, I prefer the drop back passer...like Flacco or Tom Brady.  The OLine knows where the QB will be.  They know he'll only run when time has completely run out and there is no other alternative.  I don't like my most important and most expensive player on my football team running around making big fat guys' eyes light up as they're looking for an angle to knock the guy into the blue tent.  But that's just me.  

I totally concur!

@dutch-oven said:

non-running quarterbacks.

Flacco is basically nothing like Watson.  This is a monkey wrench for the offense when the backup needs to play.  

Me, I prefer the drop back passer...like Flacco or Tom Brady.  The OLine knows where the QB will be.  They know he'll only run when time has completely run out and there is no other alternative.  I don't like my most important and most expensive player on my football team running around making big fat guys' eyes light up as they're looking for an angle to knock the guy into the blue tent.  But that's just me.  

@tiamat63 said:

Explains that massive comeback against Houston. 

nickers can excuse back-to-back pick sixes when they are thrown by non-running quarterbacks.

@nickers said:

 Flacco can overcome his INT's... 

Explains that massive comeback against Houston.