@texasag1969 said:

Yeah, they got it right that year, but think of what the Browns coulda been all long with the King who seems to cause injuries, not get them. Plus the best stiff-arm ever seen including the late, great JB. I think that guy last night was not only avoiding injury on the TD, but at a minimum a stiff-arm embarrassment. Whiff was a smart choice.?

No doubt about it Aggies!   Coulda has a favorite home in Cleveland.  

@flugel said:

? I'm still not going to complain about getting Nick Chubb (at 5.3 yards per carry for his career) with the 2nd of TWO 2nd round picks.  The easier things to complain about.

Yeah, they got it right that year, but think of what the Browns coulda been all long with the King who seems to cause injuries, not get them. Plus the best stiff-arm ever seen including the late, great JB. I think that guy last night was not only avoiding injury on the TD, but at a minimum a stiff-arm embarrassment. Whiff was a smart choice.?

@texasag1969 said:

Well we get a back to back comparison on how bad each loses against King Henry & his court.??

? I'm still not going to complain about getting Nick Chubb (at 5.3 yards per carry for his career) with the 2nd of TWO 2nd round picks.  There's easier things to complain about.

@flugel said:

 Living in the Tampa vicinity, I can tell you they are a GREAT organization.  Top to bottom, they blow away Jimmy's business.

Well we get a back to back comparison on how bad each loses against King Henry & his court.??

@dutch-oven said:

Funny you brought up the infamous Christmas Day four interception day by Baker, I have a funny story related to that...

So my buddy who has season tickets is an IT guy, and he works with a guy who worked for the Browns during that time period. Apparently it was a well-known (and well laughed at) story in the headquarters in Berea that the night before that game Baker was up until 5 am playing the video game Call of Duty. ?

Wow!  Yeah, he was pretty inconsistent with the maturity required to get everyone buying into his leadership. I was still amazed I didn't read 1 player that said they would miss him here.  Lucky for him, he gets it now and it's working well. Living in the Tampa vicinity, I can tell you they are a GREAT organization.  Top to bottom, they blow away Jimmy's business.

@flugel said:

The last time I saw Baker playing QB for this Owner, FO and Coaching Staff - he threw 4 INTs on Christmas Day in Green Bay; and their fans thought he gave better gifts than Santa Claus. As someone that actually wanted us to DRAFT Baker (unlike you) - I'm happy he's on a team today where success continues to be possible for him.  Haslam, his FO and Coaching Staff are now making Watson look worse than Baker looked in their IDEA of NFL Offense.  I call their offense in Cleveland today "Noah Fence!" 

Anyway, Baker first went to Carolina but blended in with stench and got benched right?  That wasn't his ideal match. Then he went to the Defending SB Champs (Rams) and looked like he could offer the right team the right stuff.  Speaking of going to a recent Super Bowl Champion - next stop was the TB Bucs that had both starting WRs (Evans & Godwin) frequenting Pro Bowls before even Brady got there let alone Baker. Anyway, they have a more intelligent Ownership, FO and Coaching staff with a good team on both sides of the ball to enable a GOOD QB to win and look good doing so.  

Why all this?  If Cheesecakes stayed in Cleveland - they would have ruined him.  As bad as Watson is here - he led Houston to the playoffs in each of his 1st 2 seasons there and made 2 Pro Bowls in the 3 seasons he suited up there. The 1 year they didn't make the playoffs, he had one of the highest passer ratings out of 32 teams. As we've all seen, he looks nothing like the QB he was in Houston.  Moving forward, it's going to be tough to get excited about any new QB coming to Cleveland until the competence at the top of this franchise improves considerably.  I'll be very pleasantly surprised if they actually know what it is about the QB that makes him a gotta-have franchise QB.

Funny you brought up the infamous Christmas Day four interception day by Baker, I have a funny story related to that...

So my buddy who has season tickets is an IT guy, and he works with a guy who worked for the Browns during that time period. Apparently it was a well-known (and well laughed at) story in the headquarters in Berea that the night before that game Baker was up until 5 am playing the video game Call of Duty. ?

@calfoxwc said:

YEP. I don't know how the Baker haters who blamed everything on him, will still ignore the disaster that watson is,

The last time I saw Baker playing QB for this Owner, FO and Coaching Staff - he threw 4 INTs on Christmas Day in Green Bay; and their fans thought he gave better gifts than Santa Claus. As someone that actually wanted us to DRAFT Baker (unlike you) - I'm happy he's on a team today where success continues to be possible for him.  Haslam, his FO and Coaching Staff are now making Watson look worse than Baker looked in their IDEA of NFL Offense.  I call their offense in Cleveland today "Noah Fence!" 

Anyway, Baker first went to Carolina but blended in with stench and got benched right?  That wasn't his ideal match. Then he went to the Defending SB Champs (Rams) and looked like he could offer the right team the right stuff.  Speaking of going to a recent Super Bowl Champion - next stop was the TB Bucs that had both starting WRs (Evans & Godwin) frequenting Pro Bowls before even Brady got there let alone Baker. Anyway, they have a more intelligent Ownership, FO and Coaching staff with a good team on both sides of the ball to enable a GOOD QB to win and look good doing so.  

Why all this?  If Cheesecakes stayed in Cleveland - they would have ruined him.  As bad as Watson is here - he led Houston to the playoffs in each of his 1st 2 seasons there and made 2 Pro Bowls in the 3 seasons he suited up there. The 1 year they didn't make the playoffs, he had one of the highest passer ratings out of 32 teams. As we've all seen, he looks nothing like the QB he was in Houston.  Moving forward, it's going to be tough to get excited about any new QB coming to Cleveland until the competence at the top of this franchise improves considerably.  I'll be very pleasantly surprised if they actually know what it is about the QB that makes him a gotta-have franchise QB.

Seems that Cooper had had it with passes from watson that were uncatchable, especially on deep throws. Josh Allen will have a field day with him added to the offense.

Meanwhile, stefanski isn't good enough coach to lead the Browns out of this mire.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/kevin-stefanski-faces-mounting-criticism/ar-AA1snvgc?ei=26

@marvin-the-martian said:

ESPN is singing the praises of Watson the Great.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41778436/browns-bench-deshaun-watson-poor-qb-play-contract-future-cut

Watson only suited up for 3 seasons in Houston and sat out the 4th. The only thing that stood out to me in that article was "The 3 Time Pro Bowl QB."  He comes to Cleveland looking like he's never played QB in the NFL before. More specifically, this organization helped him become the next PJ Walker.  BTW, Houston's QB CJ Stroud was Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2023 punctuated with beating the Browns in the playoffs.  That's their next 1st round QB succeeding already.  

Why does Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold blend in with stench in Carolina only to succeed with Tampa and Minnesota?  The organizations employing them have a lot to do with their ability to succeed or fail.

The Browns moved Heaven and Earth to go after Watson; but they have yet to understand what it was about him that made this deal so necessary for their organization.  It's year number 3 in Project Wing-it and fling it.  Every week we hear different commentators talking about how long it takes for plays to setup (even the short passes).  

If you're old enough to have seen Lindy Infante Coordinating the Offense here in 1986 - he absolutely tapped every strength that Bernie Kosar had with the offense he installed.  The year before, the Browns were 8-8 with both Mack and Byner rushing for over 1000 yards apiece.  When Infante got here in 86 - he thought to himself I don't want to hide a QB like this behind handing off all game.  I want to dictate with my QB's vision, smarts and accuracy against all these teams chomping at the bits to blitz my cement shoe'd QB. 

We had 2 very reliable guys on 3rd downs WR Brian Brennan (55 receptions) and RB Herman Fontenot (47 receptions) that were almost used specifically to exploit vacated zones/transitions via the blitz.  Brennan used to make a ton of catches over the middle in the hook zones while Fontenot would exploit the flats and grey area between the flats and hook zones.  Keep in mind, Ozzie Newsome was the TE that could really enhance the matchup problems the opposing defenses.  The OL didn't false start or hold every other play.  Again, keep in mind, this was a brand new offense installed for a 2nd year QB.  End result?  12-4 regular season record that gave this team 2 playoff games at home. The RBs combined for 118 receptions or so. In other words, handoffs were often replaced by short swing passes to the RBs.  

Best part of all?  It was very FUCKING ORGANIZED around the franchise QB's skillsets in just 1 year by the newly employed OC.  Man, I miss that!

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41778436/browns-bench-deshaun-watson-poor-qb-play-contract-future-cut

@hoorta said:

Bob, I go back even farther than you. 

Regarding season tickets...  You must be up in the nosebleeds. My two season tickets (Section 111) are almost double yours. 

Oh, and if Haslam manages to get his Dome, I'll financially be out of there. 

Yeah, I'm in the 1st row of the upper deck, 20 yard line. Upper deck is obviously less expensive, which is ok. Sadly, I've seen lots of bad football like you & many others.

I agree, the new stadium will price many out. Plus, it needs to be downtown but I get the feeling it won't be.

I get Haslam " getting the ball rolling" on a new stadium, but in this economy it's going to be a tough sell. Sure, there's many Browns addicts like us out there, but financially you have to draw the line somewhere. I held on with reservations, because I really thought we were close to a Super Bowl- now it looks light years away, again.

One last thought ...to Haslam's credit, he didn't raise tickets for many years. But the last 5-6 years, he's increased it since the Browns became decent. 

@canton-dawg said:

After digesting another Browns turd yesterday, I don’t know what to be more pissed off about.

1) The exorbitant amount of money paid out to an offense that couldn’t manage to score a TD.

2) The overpayment to a QB that was no better than the guy he replaced.

3) The ability of a team to make it inside the 10 yard line to potentially tie the game, but instead manage not one false start penalty but two!

The best thing about the Browns this weekend was the Guardians.

On the bright side, through 6 games Rodney McLeod leads the team in touchdowns!

Go Guards!

1) The exorbitant amount of money paid out to an offense that couldn’t manage to score a TD.

2) The overpayment to a QB that was no better than the guy he replaced.

3) The ability of a team to make it inside the 10 yard line to potentially tie the game, but instead manage not one false start penalty but two!

The best thing about the Browns this weekend was the Guardians.

@bob806 said:

@jrb12711 & @usfbrown@ well written. Of course, everybody here has solid posts as well.

It's crazy how the Browns have this hold on us all. You may or may not have read some of my posts, I go back a long way into fandom (1972 1st game at the stadium, age 9). 

Right now, the team stinks, again. I personally feel like a fool for ante-ing up $2304 for my 2 season tickets. I'll be there next week, etc but with the Browns structure, they want the season ticket money in March for 2025....nope, I'm out, bye bye to the tickets I've held since 1979. 

They will always be my favorite team by a mile. It's strictly a one-way relationship. The Browns' owners have been taking advantage of a rabid & damaged fan base far too long. 

Adding the new stadium stuff to the mix, it's even more frustrating ( and it really is just scratching the surface). A new palace for an owner who wants to win, but doesn't know how...yikes.

Bob, I go back even farther than you. My first football memory was "the greatest game ever played" Colts- Giants OT Championship game in 1958. That was back in the days when you'd gather around the black & white tv Sunday afternoon to catch the Browns after Gene Carrol's amatuer hour. That was when the Browns were consistently great. Yeah- I can say I was at the very first Monday Night Football game, Red Right 88, and the double overtime playoff win against the Jets. But this current Clown Show has pushed me to the brink. 

Regarding season tickets...  You must be up in the nosebleeds. My two season tickets (Section 111) are almost double yours. Honestly, I don't know how much longer I'll be able to afford them. The Front Office had better not dare to raise the prices again come spring 2025.  

BTW, I took a quick look at NFL Ticket Exchange.... And it's not exactly rocket science to find out a LOT of folks in the 100 Field level are dumping their tickets at below face value. That includes me. It may get to the point I'll actually have to drive up for the games and use them if those tickets won't move at a bargain below face value price.  

Oh, and if Haslam manages to get his Dome, I'll financially be out of there. New shiny dome = massive increase in ticket prices. It won't be a tough decision either, that amount of cash will be up in a new car payment range. If the season goes as I expect it to (in the toilet) I'll probably ask my three nephews (they all have great jobs) if they're interested in taking over the financial burden. 

@usfbrown said:

I think most of the fan base is feeling the same right now.  I can remember 3 seasons since the team came back that Browns were competitive.  I think the biggest issue is we went from thinking this team was AFCN contenders to worst team in the NFL.  It's not even entertaining and I have also become detached from this shit show.  

I'll always be a fan as well - but at this time the Browns games are on in the background and I don't have any real feelings towards what happens as I know what the result will be because nothing is changing.

I think this season for me went being one of the most excited I've been to the most disinterested I've been in this team.  

For sure man. I was talking to my dad about it and he made a good point. Fans his age (mid 60s) and even folks in their 50s can cling to when the Browns were extremely good for a period of time in the 80s. We all know how it ended up, but most of those years fans could go into it thinking they truly had a shot at a super bowl or deep playoff appearance. Since 1999 (my first real season understanding football), there hasn't been a single season where it felt that way, and most years not even remotely close. There's no "good old days" for us to discuss in our lifetimes, which is truly crazy when you think about it. Even the 2020 season felt like a fluke in every definition of the word.

@ibleedbrown said:

I think it depends on your level of investment and what you’re looking to get out of it.

I’ve been the guy who has spent many a Sunday bent outta shape due do a Browns football game. I guess l’m a little older as a Gen Xer. 

It took time but l boiled it down to absolutes, and it all sorta revolves back to family for me. We both watched the game with our dads yeah? Probably a couple guys partially responsible for our fandom in the first place.

We did our fair share of bitching about how awful the Browns are these days, and speculated on the reasons why. I’m at the age where l know those days are numbered and l don’t know how many more games l got left to bitch about how awful the Browns are with my dad. 

And it goes the other way too. I got a kid, you got kids, and misery loves company so we unintentionally pass along this curse, haha. 

For sure on this one bolded especially. As long as I can when my dad is around I'll watch the games with him and bitch over text. But outside that? Not so much.

@jrb12711 said:

Not to get too dramatic, but the reality is this is losing a generation of fans like myself in the firm millennial generation. I mean honestly, think about it:

1) Why would I have any faith this will be good in the future?

2) Why would I spend money on Cleveland tickets, merch, etc?

3) Why would I take my family (two young kids) to any Cleveland Browns game, or even have them root for them in the first place?

I'm not a doomer in most cases, but the word I find myself going back to is apathy. I know I'll never stop being a Cleveland sports person, but there's no reason to care or put effort into being a 'fan' long term, if that makes sense.

I think it depends on your level of investment and what you’re looking to get out of it.

I’ve been the guy who has spent many a Sunday bent outta shape due do a Browns football game. I guess l’m a little older as a Gen Xer. 

It took time but l boiled it down to absolutes, and it all sorta revolves back to family for me. We both watched the game with our dads yeah? Probably a couple guys partially responsible for our fandom in the first place.

We did our fair share of bitching about how awful the Browns are these days, and speculated on the reasons why. I’m at the age where l know those days are numbered and l don’t know how many more games l got left to bitch about how awful the Browns are with my dad. 

And it goes the other way too. I got a kid, you got kids, and misery loves company so we unintentionally pass along this curse, haha. 

@nickers said:

I keep coming back to one point... Why would I come back knowing they're gonna keep trotting D4 out there knowing the results and the stigma of losing will remain... Stockholm Syndrome has to end somewhere... If they intend on keeping him next year... I may as well find something else to do with my Sundays until this ass is off the team and they hit reset... It's becoming that bad.

YEP. I don't know how the Baker haters who blamed everything on him, will still ignore the disaster that watson is, on and OFF the field. Until the worst trade in NFL history gets fixed, it's just a sad day for all of us who have had Super Bowl hopes for so many years.

Stefanski isn't a leader, and the haslams, depodoofus needs to GO. Another hopeless season. I think watson and stefanski are dragging this team down.

@tiamat63 said:

 Why does it have to be one or the other? 

 Multiple problems can co-exist at the same time, just with a priority listing on their impact on the team. 

 With Baker, the front office (and two others) saw the limits of his play.  Plus his 'fuck it' decision making the back half of that 2021 season spoiled his good-will towards those who write the checks. 

 2020 Watson was a damn good young QB. Front office shot for the stars and ended up on a dying planet falling short.   That's the difference between success or failure.  Success and it's a ballsy, genius move.  Failure and you're ostracized (rightfully so)

 I'm a conservative gambler and investor. I get a steady ROI, but I'll never be rich from it.   Andrew Berry and Jimmy Haslam went all in and busted on the river card playing high stakes.  

 Sadly you have great players whose career windows have shrunk in the time since that deal was made and this team floundered.  Then you have a solid head coach who is left to navigate the curse of personnel purgatory given to him by his superiors. 

 Haslam is problem #1 off the field and directly impacts the product on the field. #2 is Berry.    Until Tennessee Jerry is told to fuck off, or somehow those under him can support the weight of his interference and overcome his negative contributions, this team will be the lesser for it.   And decent people below them will lose their jobs because men, regardless of class, status or standing, still struggle to just say "my fault". 

Nice job with that T! No doubt there were immaturity issues when things didn't go well.  Even before Baker got here - there's something about the set-up putting my confidence in them into a blender.  Let's just hope I'm wrong about it.  Wouldn't be the first time...

@usfbrown said:

I think most of the fan base is feeling the same right now.  I can remember 3 seasons since the team came back that Browns were competitive.  I think the biggest issue is we went from thinking this team was AFCN contenders to worst team in the NFL.  It's not even entertaining and I have also become detached from this shit show.  

I'll always be a fan as well - but at this time the Browns games are on in the background and I don't have any real feelings towards what happens as I know what the result will be because nothing is changing.

I think this season for me went being one of the most excited I've been to the most disinterested I've been in this team.  

I keep coming back to one point... Why would I come back knowing they're gonna keep trotting D4 out there knowing the results and the stigma of losing will remain... Stockholm Syndrome has to end somewhere... If they intend on keeping him next year... I may as well find something else to do with my Sundays until this ass is off the team and they hit reset... It's becoming that bad.

@dutch-oven said:

You think Winston or DTR would make that big of a difference?

I mean, I'm all for it, but I don't think the end result would change much. Maybe we'd lose more respectfully. ?

I think DTR would make a difference, seemed to have the best handle on the offense in the preseason.

It's crazy how the Browns have this hold on us all. You may or may not have read some of my posts, I go back a long way into fandom (1972 1st game at the stadium, age 9). 

Right now, the team stinks, again. I personally feel like a fool for ante-ing up $2304 for my 2 season tickets. I'll be there next week, etc but with the Browns structure, they want the season ticket money in March for 2025....nope, I'm out, bye bye to the tickets I've held since 1979. 

They will always be my favorite team by a mile. It's strictly a one-way relationship. The Browns' owners have been taking advantage of a rabid & damaged fan base far too long. 

Adding the new stadium stuff to the mix, it's even more frustrating ( and it really is just scratching the surface). A new palace for an owner who wants to win, but doesn't know how...yikes.

@flugel said:

Was the problem ever REALLY Baker Mayfield here or the employer?  There's a difference between Crablegs QBing the Tampa team with the same 2 WRs (Evans & Godwin) throwing 30 INTs in 1 season and not making the playoffs vrs what Baker has done there.  We can pretend otherwise but you know the truth.  

FWIW, Watson was never considered a terrible QB in Houston during the 3 years he actually played.  In fact, the 1st 2 years he took them to the playoffs as a 1st round pick. The next year, he had one of the best passer ratings of the entire league.  Then came the Serial QB Killers - the Cleveland Browns.  

The problem in Cleveland is the owner.  All these players and coaches we want to hurry-up and fire or cut as a fanbase never seem to get upgraded by the guy doing the hiring. They're all just symptoms of the disease - Jimmy Haslam.  

How many times do we have to watch this sequel without considering it all starts at the top.  

I'll always love this team and its storied history; and I won't let this owner take that away from me.

 Why does it have to be one or the other? 

 Multiple problems can co-exist at the same time, just with a priority listing on their impact on the team. 

 With Baker, the front office (and two others) saw the limits of his play.  Plus his 'fuck it' decision making the back half of that 2021 season spoiled his good-will towards those who write the checks. 

 2020 Watson was a damn good young QB. Front office shot for the stars and ended up on a dying planet falling short.   That's the difference between success or failure.  Success and it's a ballsy, genius move.  Failure and you're ostracized (rightfully so)

 I'm a conservative gambler and investor. I get a steady ROI, but I'll never be rich from it.   Andrew Berry and Jimmy Haslam went all in and busted on the river card playing high stakes.  

 Sadly you have great players whose career windows have shrunk in the time since that deal was made and this team floundered.  Then you have a solid head coach who is left to navigate the curse of personnel purgatory given to him by his superiors. 

 Haslam is problem #1 off the field and directly impacts the product on the field. #2 is Berry.    Until Tennessee Jerry is told to fuck off, or somehow those under him can support the weight of his interference and overcome his negative contributions, this team will be the lesser for it.   And decent people below them will lose their jobs because men, regardless of class, status or standing, still struggle to just say "my fault". 

@jrb12711 said:

Not to get too dramatic, but the reality is this is losing a generation of fans like myself in the firm millennial generation. I mean honestly, think about it:

1) Why would I have any faith this will be good in the future?

2) Why would I spend money on Cleveland tickets, merch, etc?

3) Why would I take my family (two young kids) to any Cleveland Browns game, or even have them root for them in the first place?

I'm not a doomer in most cases, but the word I find myself going back to is apathy. I know I'll never stop being a Cleveland sports person, but there's no reason to care or put effort into being a 'fan' long term, if that makes sense.

I think most of the fan base is feeling the same right now.  I can remember 3 seasons since the team came back that Browns were competitive.  I think the biggest issue is we went from thinking this team was AFCN contenders to worst team in the NFL.  It's not even entertaining and I have also become detached from this shit show.  

I'll always be a fan as well - but at this time the Browns games are on in the background and I don't have any real feelings towards what happens as I know what the result will be because nothing is changing.

I think this season for me went being one of the most excited I've been to the most disinterested I've been in this team.  

@ibleedbrown said:

Watched the first half with my old man today too. Left just before the blocked fg td. That Myles Garrett man, he’s fun to watch. That’s the second time l recall him jumping over the line to block a kick. 

Another bummer of a game. Did we beat the spread by kicking that last field goal though?

Not to get too dramatic, but the reality is this is losing a generation of fans like myself in the firm millennial generation. I mean honestly, think about it:

1) Why would I have any faith this will be good in the future?

2) Why would I spend money on Cleveland tickets, merch, etc?

3) Why would I take my family (two young kids) to any Cleveland Browns game, or even have them root for them in the first place?

I'm not a doomer in most cases, but the word I find myself going back to is apathy. I know I'll never stop being a Cleveland sports person, but there's no reason to care or put effort into being a 'fan' long term, if that makes sense.