@flugel said:

I don't remember Stefanski coaching a Watson type of QB

Right.  But I didn't mention Stef.  I said, 'their type of QB'.   Yes, Stef is part of 'their', but I'm not sure how much of what Stef thinks matters when 'the organization' makes a determination.  I remember DePo stating, 'We're not interested in 4 yard runs.  We want 13 yard passes.'   And this was during Chubb's peak.  Stef likes 2 TE sets.  But the mantra of the powers that be don't seem to want that path. -  Again, I wish we had the #1 pick to see which style of QB they picked to ascertain who won.  

@orion said:

Yes, he saved our season and got us to the playoffs.  Great job he did.  But he really wasn't their style of QB.  They wanted someone who could dance around back there, make plays with his feet, throw on the run, run QB sweeps...etc.  Flacco was an emergency, 'Hey you!  Suit up!  You gotta be better than what we're using!'  And at that point they were still thinking that Watson would return the next season as the QB.

I wish that we had the #1 overall pick.  We might get a clearer picture of the vision of the organization.  I would say that Ward is more of a Watson style player while Sanders might be closer to Flacco 'in the system' player.  Now, if QB's go 1 & 2, we'd never know for sure if what we drafted was the consolation prize.  

...for the record, I like the Flacco type player.  Stay in the pocket where your OLinemen know where you're supposed to be.  Throw the ball away if there's nothing there.  Run if it presents itself, but slide!  Never take on tacklers.  I do not like designed runs for my QB.  It increases the odds of him getting hurt...and my team will most probably be crap without him if he gets hurt.  

I could be wrong but I don't remember Stefanski coaching a Watson type of QB that scrambled all over the place in Minnesota to make me believe that Watson was his type of QB. The closest thing Minnesota had to the style Watson had in Houston exciting our Owner & FO was Fran Tarkenton 50-60+ years earlier (way before Stefanski arrived). Having said that, HC & HOF QB Norm Van Brocklin never embraced Tarkenton's desire (unbreakable habit) to scramble, improvise and succeed via how he was wired to do so.  Van Brocklin was a timing guy that wanted the 3 step drop and throw - same with the 5 or 7 step drops. Anything later in his mind invited interceptions, fumbles and injuries.  Interestingly enough, Tarkenton later played for a defensive minded coach HC Bud Grant in Minnesota that understood "this was the type of QB Bud never liked facing so why change what could be special?"  2 completely different coaching microscopes of the same QB and the irony is he played much better for the Defensive Minded Bud Grant than he did for the HOF QB.

IMO, if he was Stefanski's type of QB an offense awaiting what he's good at would have been ready from the 1st game he played. It was not.  In fact, they hired and fired Offensive Coordinators and Assistants all the way to the end of the 3rd season Watson was here to assure me he's not Stefanski's type of QB.  Seeing all this unfold I would post in here what was the WHY they identified on film that the bold move was made?  Cleveland was easily the worst ready team for him - all you have to do is compare the Pro Bowls and frequency of leading his team to the playoffs between Houston and Cleveland to see.  1 team knew what they needed to tap - the Browns didn't.  I can't listen to any more excuses for this FO - they are the ones that need to be fired not the HC who problem solved the 2023 season giving CPR to Joe Flacco's career in the form of NFL Comeback player of the year.  

Maybe you're right about Ward being more like Watson coming out of college than Sanders is.  One thing I do know is Stefanski's entire experience coaching in the NFL was limited to just 1 team.  If memory serves me right he was having quite a challenges as the OC trying to run Kubiak's Offense so they actually hired Kubiak as an Offensive Consultant. Consequently, the play calling improved as Kubiak was helping Stefanski's understanding and how 1 passing game route can set-up 1-2 mores receiving routes as well as how to call your plays with that understood.  That reminded me of the Browns trying to keep Lindy Infante's offense when the next guy clearly didn't grasp how things build off of the basics where 1 receiving route sets up another.  I LIKE Stefanski, I just wish he had more than the Minnesota experience in his background in terms of being able to adapt and plan.  That said, we couldn't have asked for a better job from him in 2023 given the QB situation.  He's not the problem IMO.  It's the owner and FO that has decimated this roster.  I WANT to be excited about this draft but let's not lie to ourselves - but the smart thing to do with expectations any more is "I hope they pleasantly surprise us with a nice draft from front to back."  If they don't and Jimmy only fires Coaches again - there's your answer on whether he will ever get it or not.  When one only fires scapegoats - he's not doing the self-evaluation we need from him. The solution would be to upgrade the FO also meaning he has to get himself better hiring criteria in order to accomplish that. Teams win and lose by the decisions made at the top.  As with any choice, don't draft guys that need to be rewired by Dr Frankenstein.  Watch film and identify who has what you want as well as what can or cannot be coached.  Make a freakin checklist of what you need to see from QB on film. Draft the best QB available; and find a LT that can protect your most important investment for once in your tenure...  

@flugel said:

Of course I want free agency and a veteran QB.  Didn't we already have Joe Flacco on board here? 

Yes, he saved our season and got us to the playoffs.  Great job he did.  But he really wasn't their style of QB.  They wanted someone who could dance around back there, make plays with his feet, throw on the run, run QB sweeps...etc.  Flacco was an emergency, 'Hey you!  Suit up!  You gotta be better than what we're using!'  And at that point they were still thinking that Watson would return the next season as the QB.

I wish that we had the #1 overall pick.  We might get a clearer picture of the vision of the organization.  I would say that Ward is more of a Watson style player while Sanders might be closer to Flacco 'in the system' player.  Now, if QB's go 1 & 2, we'd never know for sure if what we drafted was the consolation prize.  

...for the record, I like the Flacco type player.  Stay in the pocket where your OLinemen know where you're supposed to be.  Throw the ball away if there's nothing there.  Run if it presents itself, but slide!  Never take on tacklers.  I do not like designed runs for my QB.  It increases the odds of him getting hurt...and my team will most probably be crap without him if he gets hurt.  

@flugel said:

Let's not get so serious that we boycott sense of humor (as a coping mechanism that enables our passion as fans to persevere throughout this owner's dumpster fires).

Amen, it's fun to strategize but we absolutely have no bearing on the outcome.(not pointed to anyone, just saying)

@orion said:

We have to utilize Free Agency.  We have multiple needs.  Sure, we have 12 draft picks, but half of 'em are in the final 2 rounds.  Rookie draft picks will not be able to fill all of the holes.  And in reality, how many rookie draft picks do we want having to be starters?

Let's not get so serious that we boycott sense of humor (as a coping mechanism that enables our passion as fans to persevere throughout this owner's dumpster fires). That aside, I have fun looking to you and others in here for a lot of stuff I'm not even considering. 

Of course I want free agency and a veteran QB.  Didn't we already have Joe Flacco on board here?  What about that Comeback Player of the Year season said send him packing NOW?  The potential for hurting Watson's feelings when Flacco outplays him again. I see that as a dumpster fire while Jimmy and his FO see it as a campfire to toast marshmallows over.

Before that year we had Jacoby Brissett right?  Now, both of their names are showing up as top candidates for teams in our situation with that of Gardner Minshew in a doable price range while there's also more expensive QBs than him like Darnold and Cousins (NFL Channel thinks both guys may stay right where they're at). This isn't an attractive place to come play QB when we have nothing but peak-a-boo starters on the OL up front; and a running game that featured what's left of Nick Chubb carrying the ball on a pogo stick.

Let's see if free agency can help our biggest areas of depleted depth.  For example, if there's a LT that may be a solid place holder for a gem that could be in our draft slot at #33 overall - run it!  It's a similar scenario to the QB thing.  We need help at DE, DB and LB too. 

Last but not least, I've seen more than a few guys that suffered very severe knee injuries looking more like the player they were pre-injury in their 2nd year after the injury.. And nobody is more diligent with their strength and conditioning than Nick Chubb to have me thinking he'll be off pogo stick fulltime this year.  It still wouldn't hurt to add a FA RB that can also play STs to upgrade our depth.

@flugel said:

More specifically, Cleveland's favorite new Santa Claus above just agreed to allow Jimmy's FO to go visit the Island of Misfit Toys for another spending spree.  What could go wrong?  

We have to utilize Free Agency.  We have multiple needs.  Sure, we have 12 draft picks, but half of 'em are in the final 2 rounds.  Rookie draft picks will not be able to fill all of the holes.  And in reality, how many rookie draft picks do we want having to be starters?

@canton-dawg said:

I didn’t want to start a new thread for this, but considering how many games he’s played over the past 3 years…I would say he’s still winning.

More specifically, Cleveland's favorite new Santa Claus above just agreed to allow Jimmy's FO to go visit the Island of Misfit Toys for another spending spree.  What could go wrong?  

@tiamat63 said:

So what the Haslams were asking, whether they realized it or not, was if the coaches believed that Baker could win enough and develop further to lead the Browns to the Superbowl.

Well, yes.  They're not asking if, with Baker, they can beat the bottom half of the league.  But one could respond by saying, Yes, but I'm not certain that he can become elite, or something.  But Stump replied, Absolutely.  Just before asking Jimmy to make him HC.    Which we know didn't happen.....probably because that's not what Jimmy wanted to hear.  But he did ask him if he'd stay as RB coach and Stump agreed.

@orion said:

Now, I'd like to go over this question that Stump was asked by the Haslems at his exit interview after Kitchens was fired.  It is THE  question regarding a football team.  Can you win with the QB that you have?  You wouldn't ask that question with any over player position.  Will we be able to run with the RB we have?  With the OL that we have?  Will we have time to pass with the OL we have?  Will we be able to rush the passer without Myles?  Because even if you have all of those...you still can't win if you have a bum at QB.  Clearly, the Haslems (The Clampets  ) had doubts about Baker.  This is before Berry & Stef were on the scene.  My Little Grey Cells tell me that Berry was, at least asked, if not charged, with evaluating options for upgrading the QB position that Baker Mayfield currently held.

 The problem with this question is that on the surface it's a yes/no and as simple as that. 

 There are unspoken layers and complexity I'm not entirely certain any or all parties involved entertained.  

 Can you "win" with Baker? Sure. We could and we did.  But that isn't enough - how much, or being the most accurate, *what* are you trying to win?  That answer is the same for every team; the SuperBowl. 

 So what the Haslams were asking, whether they realized it or not, was if the coaches believed that Baker could win enough and develop further to lead the Browns to the Superbowl. This was a post-2019 question where Baker didn't show up and give his best. So you're going to get an answer that would reflect as such. 

@flugel said:

Yeah but Jimmy doesn't sell Bibles...MADE IN CHINA!                 FIFY

And say the Lord's prayer .........................................................................oh wait...............................couldn't do that.

@dutch-oven said:

And yet Jimmy doesn’t have 34 felonies on his resume…

Yeah but Jimmy doesn't sell Bibles...

@calfoxwc said:

Former Pilot exec: Haslam 'loved' trucking rip-off scheme

Of course he did.  Screw them dumb sum-bitches!  

@orion said:

I agree.  Some years back a story came about about Joe Thomas's wife (I think it was HIS wife) running into Mrs. Haslem in a store (supermarket?) and the two women talked about the team and Mrs. Haslem began to cry as she was trying to explain how badly that they want the team to be successful and about how they realized how much they didn't know after taking ownership...and about how hard they were trying.  

They want to win.  The just don't know what the heck they're doing.  I mean, they changed the uniform of the Cleveland Browns.  How stupidly misguided was that?

   They apparently "don't want to win" for the fans. Haslam himself is said to be the driving force behind the watson trade disaster. That pretty much gave the finger to a lot of Browns fans.

Haslam wants to win for more wealth, I guess. That seems to be the pattern - more money by any means necessary. Haslam needs to sell the team. He's a disaster to the Browns, to the city, to the fans, and even to his own company.

He doesn't hire good people too often. Hired a qb that was not good people.

@flugel said:

I doubt he'd do any worse than Jimmy's little Harvard Club has done with the QB position.

No he'll only miss on one QB without trading the Browns #1 pick for 3 years in a row.??

@texasag1969 said:

Well he can always turn to a homeless guy to pick the next Browns QB-ready made scapegoat there.?

I doubt he'd do any worse than Jimmy's little Harvard Club has done with the QB position.

@dutch-oven said:

I don't have any doubt that Haslam wants the Browns to win.

I agree.  Some years back a story came about about Joe Thomas's wife (I think it was HIS wife) running into Mrs. Haslem in a store (supermarket?) and the two women talked about the team and Mrs. Haslem began to cry as she was trying to explain how badly that they want the team to be successful and about how they realized how much they didn't know after taking ownership...and about how hard they were trying.  

They want to win.  The just don't know what the heck they're doing.  I mean, they changed the uniform of the Cleveland Browns.  How stupidly misguided was that?

@dutch-oven said:

I don't have any doubt that Haslam wants the Browns to win.

They went to the playoffs twice in a four year stretch, which for the Browns in the expansion era is downright a dynasty.

I don't think he knows how to navigate this next chapter. I don't think he wants to admit to himself the dark truth that the team needs rebuilt again, considering the last huge rebuild was within the last decade. 

You might be right with the part in bold above. The outrageous thing is they went from 11 wins (using 5 different QBs) to just 3 wins using less QBs.   I'm not saying you're wrong; but it seems RUL weird to go from 11 wins to 3 wins & total rebuild - that fast.  Then again, it is the Cleveland Browns we're talking about.

@texasag1969 said:

Well he can always turn to a homeless guy to pick the next Browns QB-ready made scapegoat there.?

Sigh...

I remember the moment we drafted Manziel like it happened yesterday. I've never been more sure that we just done fucked up than that moment. 

@flugel said:

Stump Mitchell was a good coach - but Jimmy needed scapegoats as usual.

Well he can always turn to a homeless guy to pick the next Browns QB-ready made scapegoat there.?

@flugel said:

BINGO!  It almost makes me wonder if this owner even cares if this team wins.  If I was a betting man - I think he cares more if his college alma mater wins than the team he owns.  Now he wants a wants a palace for this team to play in front of?   

I don't have any doubt that Haslam wants the Browns to win.

They went to the playoffs twice in a four year stretch, which for the Browns in the expansion era is downright a dynasty.

I don't think he knows how to navigate this next chapter. I don't think he wants to admit to himself the dark truth that the team needs rebuilt again, considering the last huge rebuild was within the last decade. 

@dutch-oven said:

I've been thinking about the same thing.

How did a front office swing and miss so horribly on Watson still keep their jobs? A team that is now screaming for a rebuild is being run by people who will be desperate to make short-term moves to succeed NOW, which the chances are won't work and in reality all we are doing is just postponing the inevitable. 

My conclusion is that perhaps Haslam had some doubts what quality of front office/coaching staff guys he could get with the Browns being in the position they are in today, and he figured he might as well let Berry and company do the dirty work, then get new people when the team looks more appealing(?)

Problem is, this team needs rebuilt through the draft, and that isn't Berry's strong suit. 

BINGO!  It almost makes me wonder if this owner even cares if this team wins.  If I was a betting man - I think he cares more if his college alma mater wins than the team he owns.  Now he wants a wants a palace for this team to play in front of?   

@flugel said:

Why is this owner keeping Office Depodesta and Berry?  There's our problem.  When he chose Depo over John Dorsey - the Detroit Lions said thank you very much Cleveland - we're looking forward to frequenting the playoffs.  DETROIT man.  So, now our owner thinks whoever we draft should waste their 1st season learning an offense they'll need to de-program as early as 2026 is a great idea?   Lucky us.  

I've been thinking about the same thing.

How did a front office swing and miss so horribly on Watson still keep their jobs? A team that is now screaming for a rebuild is being run by people who will be desperate to make short-term moves to succeed NOW, which the chances are won't work and in reality all we are doing is just postponing the inevitable. 

My conclusion is that perhaps Haslam had some doubts what quality of front office/coaching staff guys he could get with the Browns being in the position they are in today, and he figured he might as well let Berry and company do the dirty work, then get new people when the team looks more appealing(?)

Problem is, this team needs rebuilt through the draft, and that isn't Berry's strong suit.