@ballpeen said:

Just to expound on drafting a kicker...I don't think it is waste, but on the other hand you can usually find a FA guy who has kicked around from team to team before he finds his footing....no double pun intended. So I am not advocating we draft one.

If a guy can kick in college, he can kick in the pro's.  In theory anyway.  Actually, kicking in college is harder due to the wider hash marks.

I guess it is a pressure thing, but it shouldn't be.  Kicking is kicking.  If a guy kicked at any major program he was kicking in front of large crowds and had to make a few last second kicks somewhere along the line.  I suppose the pressure of losing a paycheck is greater than losing a scholarship, but it still boils down to see the ball, kick the ball.

Fans may not see a bad hold, but the special teams coach will be able to see that a hold is on it's side or 30 degrees towards the center.  At least inside the team the kicker isn't going to be responsible for what might look like a horrible kick.

Tom, you were a good HS player.  Somewhere along the line you tee'd up a ball and kicked it just to see how you could do.  Did you tee it up with the nose of the ball pointing in the direction you were kicking?    You know what i am saying.

Thanks!  On 4th downs I used to move inside from G to LS all the way until my senior year.  We had 2 really good kickers.  1 guy got brought up to varsity in 10th grade and the other beat him out as junior.  I did the Long Snapping all throughout youth football too - but it wasn't like I was anything special at it.  I did try 1 place kick at a summer football camp with the tip pointing straight up and it was a train-wreck.  That reminded me why I needed to stay in my lane. The reason football was a fun experience overall was because passion and hard work (year-round) got rewarded.  

If a guy can kick in college, he can kick in the pro's.  In theory anyway.  Actually, kicking in college is harder due to the wider hash marks.

I guess it is a pressure thing, but it shouldn't be.  Kicking is kicking.  If a guy kicked at any major program he was kicking in front of large crowds and had to make a few last second kicks somewhere along the line.  I suppose the pressure of losing a paycheck is greater than losing a scholarship, but it still boils down to see the ball, kick the ball.

Fans may not see a bad hold, but the special teams coach will be able to see that a hold is on it's side or 30 degrees towards the center.  At least inside the team the kicker isn't going to be responsible for what might look like a horrible kick.

Tom, you were a good HS player.  Somewhere along the line you tee'd up a ball and kicked it just to see how you could do.  Did you tee it up with the nose of the ball pointing in the direction you were kicking?    You know what i am saying.

@ballpeen said:

I don't think a pick on a kicker is a waste, as long as he is the right kicker.  We also have several later round picks. I could see using one of those on a kicker.  If he doesn't work out, I don't see that as any worse than drafting some back-up safety who ends up covering punts his entire 3 year career.

True; and I'm sure you're not the only one feeling like that.  My feeling is the Browns have drafted 3 kickers in recent years that didn't stick for very long at all - beginning with Zane Gonzalez & Austin Seibert.  The last one they drafted was Cade York.  I think Gonzalez was successful enough in college to earn the Lou Groza Award kicking in that dry Arizona climate that is nothing like Cleveland. The trend leads me to think this route isn't a good investment. I think the Browns should consider bringing in some rookie free agent kickers to compete with a veteran getting recycled.  The year we got Hopkins he was having a great year up until he injured his leg on the kickoff team in the last third of the regular season.  

@flugel said:

? Agreed.  After we narrow it all down to the ones that are capable of throwing accurate forward passes - we only need LT, CB, EDGE/DE, DT, LB, S, RB, K plus depth at C, LG, RT, LT, RG, SS, FS, TE, CB, WR.  Not for nothing, we could also use projected starters with better durability.  That's why any prospects coming off major injuries last year/recently, regardless of how talented they are - might not be right for this team.  

I'm not advocating that we waste a pick on a kicker though.  Before Hopkins got hurt near the end of the 2023 season - that felt like one of the best seasons we had from a Kicker since Dawson.  Even a guy like Adam Vinatieri wasn't drafted fwiw.

I don't think a pick on a kicker is a waste, as long as he is the right kicker.  We also have several later round picks. I could see using one of those on a kicker.  If he doesn't work out, I don't see that as any worse than drafting some back-up safety who ends up covering punts his entire 3 year career.

@sdbacker80 said:

Joking aside if Darnold was cheap he would worth more than a test drive off the lot.

I personally don't think he's that good.  But, at this point he'd be quite an improvement over last year's QB room.  It'll start to get interesting in a few weeks when FA opens up.

@marvin-the-martian said:

Well we currently have 3 QBs on the roster so I guess that is true

? Agreed.  After we narrow it all down to the ones that are capable of throwing accurate forward passes - we only need LT, CB, EDGE/DE, DT, LB, S, RB, K plus depth at C, LG, RT, LT, RG, SS, FS, TE, CB, WR.  Not for nothing, we could also use projected starters with better durability.  That's why any prospects coming off major injuries last year/recently, regardless of how talented they are - might not be right for this team.  

I'm not advocating that we waste a pick on a kicker though.  Before Hopkins got hurt near the end of the 2023 season - that felt like one of the best seasons we had from a Kicker since Dawson.  Even a guy like Adam Vinatieri wasn't drafted fwiw.

@sdbacker80 said:

Well if it works out The saying goes If you have two QBs you have none. I’d like to test that theory. 

Well we currently have 3 QBs on the roster so I guess that is true

@flugel said:

Exactly!  It's gonna be an interesting 2 months we're heading into with everything kicking off in Indy next week  Just pack light with an open mind and sense of humor.  We only need a starting QB and a backup.  What could go wrong?

Well if it works out The saying goes If you have two QBs you have none. I’d like to test that theory. 

@orion said:

hmm...you've been drinking again right?       Actually, Darnold seems like a nice enough guy.  I thought we were going to draft him.  

In another thread someone stated, It's the Combine Already?   Heck, I've been waiting for it since October.     Imagine when they go to 18 games and 2 bye weeks.  Super Bowl coaches will be leaving the game and heading straight to Indianapolis.  

I had us at 10-7 this year but during preseason when they had me drinking bourbon I thought maybe this could be scouting the top 10 picks kind of year. 
 

Joking aside if Darnold was cheap he would worth more than a test drive off the lot. 

@sdbacker80 said:

It is seedy used car lot QB time.  

Sam Darnold might look like a filet mignon. 
 

I still like Carter but I think the Browns take Hunter 

Exactly!  It's gonna be an interesting 2 months we're heading into with everything kicking off in Indy next week  Just pack light with an open mind and sense of humor.  We only need a starting QB and a backup.  What could go wrong?

@sdbacker80 said:

Sam Darnold might look like a filet mignon.

hmm...you've been drinking again right?       Actually, Darnold seems like a nice enough guy.  I thought we were going to draft him.  

In another thread someone stated, It's the Combine Already?   Heck, I've been waiting for it since October.     Imagine when they go to 18 games and 2 bye weeks.  Super Bowl coaches will be leaving the game and heading straight to Indianapolis.  

@flugel said:

VERY possible - although the Aiden O'Connell thing has me thinking Tums might not be strong enough to help us digest it all.  Our secondary could really use a play maker like Hunter though.  He and Ward would make a great tandem while former Northwestern teammates Mitchell & Newsome could compete for reps as the 3rd Corner was well as Emerson.

I'm having fun thinking about the possibilities near the top of every round with so many pressing needs. The Combines are next week already...

It is seedy used car lot QB time.  

Sam Darnold might look like a filet mignon. 
 

I still like Carter but I think the Browns take Hunter 

@sdbacker80 said:

He’s got the best shot of being a NY Giant at #1 overall which I think will happen. 
 

1. Sanders (Giants) by Trade.

2. Hunter Browns

3. Carter Titans 

Predicting the Browns QB in 2025 to be Aiden O’Connell 

VERY possible - although the Aiden O'Connell thing has me thinking Tums might not be strong enough to help us digest it all.  Our secondary could really use a play maker like Hunter though.  He and Ward would make a great tandem while former Northwestern teammates Mitchell & Newsome could compete for reps as the 3rd Corner was well as Emerson.

I'm having fun thinking about the possibilities near the top of every round with so many pressing needs. The Combines are next week already...

@orion said:

Welcome aboard.    I know you don't want us to draft him.  But I think that his floor is high enough such that a team with NO QB pretty much HAS to take him.  And that's why I don't think anyone has to worry about us drafting him.  He'll already be off the board.  I can't imagine that his Dad would think that TN would be a worse place to be than Cleveland.  -  Worry about us taking Ward instead.    

He’s got the best shot of being a NY Giant at #1 overall which I think will happen. 
 

1. Sanders (Giants) by Trade.

2. Hunter Browns

3. Carter Titans 

Predicting the Browns QB in 2025 to be Aiden O’Connell 

@dutch-oven said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that the Browns will take Sanders at #2, unless he's taken #1 or the Sanders family refuses to come to Cleveland. If he's available at #2, and they don't fight the Browns taking him, I think it will happen.

His accuracy, anticipation and ability to play within a system IMO will make Stefanski and Berry want to pull the trigger on him. His weaknesses: Good but not great arm, size and athleticism I believe won't stop the Browns from taking him. You don't need elite physical attributes to succeed in Stefanski's offense, I believe he finds accuracy, intelligence and the ability to not turn the ball over to be more important.

Not saying this is what I want the Browns to do, but this is what I think they will do. They need to get a young QB in and have him succeed early to show ownership that the future is bright and they've moved on from the Watson debacle. They don't need to make the playoffs next season IMO, but they need to show that they are on their way back to playoff contention.

Signing a veteran, drafting a mid-rounder QB to develop and accumulating draft picks for 2026 (my preferred plan) isn't going to save their jobs. 

I'm starting to think the same thing.  I heard on ESPN2 early AM show that a study was done on a bunch of QBs in this draft about who the most accurate passer is (not inclusive of stats believe it or not - but ball placement on throws made).  It was Shedeur and apparently no one else even came close fwiw.

This is what I posted in the Position Groups of Need thread about a week ago:

@dutch-oven said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that the Browns will take Sanders at #2, unless he's taken #1

Welcome aboard.    I know you don't want us to draft him.  But I think that his floor is high enough such that a team with NO QB pretty much HAS to take him.  And that's why I don't think anyone has to worry about us drafting him.  He'll already be off the board.  I can't imagine that his Dad would think that TN would be a worse place to be than Cleveland.  -  Worry about us taking Ward instead.    

His accuracy, anticipation and ability to play within a system IMO will make Stefanski and Berry want to pull the trigger on him. His weaknesses: Good but not great arm, size and athleticism I believe won't stop the Browns from taking him. You don't need elite physical attributes to succeed in Stefanski's offense, I believe he finds accuracy, intelligence and the ability to not turn the ball over to be more important.

Not saying this is what I want the Browns to do, but this is what I think they will do. They need to get a young QB in and have him succeed early to show ownership that the future is bright and they've moved on from the Watson debacle. They don't need to make the playoffs next season IMO, but they need to show that they are on their way back to playoff contention.

Signing a veteran, drafting a mid-rounder QB to develop and accumulating draft picks for 2026 (my preferred plan) isn't going to save their jobs. 

@flugel said:

You're missing my point completely. In this draft, if the Browns draft Carter at #2 WHY him over others?  What's the reason(s) he's the guy they invest the pick in?  So, wouldn't it be bat-shit crazy to put him in a passive read and react 2 gap scheme upfront in lieu of using WHY you liked what you saw on film from this guy?  You want to use his quickness and explosion off the edge to hurry and sack passers; because that's WHY you invested a 2nd overall pick in him. Stay with me here.

We ALL know everything you said and I even liked it.  That said, this Owner & FO made a 230 million $ guaranteed salary investment on a guy they had no idea what kind of offense he even needed (ZERO film study on their part unless they're THAT bad).  That's the WHY they never researched before pulling the trigger.. Why do you invest in anything you haven't thoroughly researched to the tune of 230 million $?  They were still hiring and firing Offensive Coordinators and assistants prior to Watson's 3rd year and after his 3rd year - because they didn't have the 1st clue what kind of offense they needed for him.  Not to mention, their plan to protect their investment was an extremely lazy (and oft-injured) LT Jed Wills.  We're all just passionate fans of this team; but the Owner & FO has to put all the stuff in place to make success possible especially for an investment of that magnitude.  When I say WHY - I mean identify what you need on film and put it all in place so you nourish and protect what you purchased. 

I'll admit, I thought Watson would be a great player for us based on his trend of the last 2 teams he played for. WHY? Because watching him thrive at Clemson beating Ohio State & Alabama in back to back weeks showed me what he could do in a compatible offense for his skillset.  Houston drafted him and also gave him a compatible offense for his skillset to the tune of 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances in the 4 years he suited up.  Biggest difference of all between the 2 places he was successful at (Clemson & Houston) vrs Cleveland?  He had to work for his rewards in offenses that knew what he needed vrs Cleveland never successfully identifying what it was he needed via offensive design/strategy and coaching.  That's gonna go down in our lifetime as the least researched investment with horrible plans to protect it.  Trial and error for 3 years assures me they never found out what it was that worked before he got here; and/or they didn't have the know how to set up something even remotely close to it.  That's their job as Owner & FO - while we're just passionate fans bouncing opinions off each other.  

Here's the difference in stats from what Cleveland setup for him vrs what Houston did:

Gotta run and these all great points. And the second part of my would be statement is definitely the lack of due diligence on our part to fit the player with our system.  Just wanted to remind us all the climate, perspective and environment the time we made this decision. 
 

One quick point….Carter in Schwartz Wide 9 especially in Year 1 when he’s got an awesome pass rush tool and while he is becoming a proficient tackler and run defender in the league is a great setup for him to have early success.  I see elite pass rush skills dip, bend, spin and great hands and He played early at PSU as a LB so you see read and diagnose skills - makes him more versatile in different systems. If Myles sticks around he’s not the guy an offense is trying to take away.

@sdbacker80 said:

why?

The trade went down on the eve of the worst QB class in memory as you had Willis…Pickett…Howell…Ridder.  
You could wait a year (eternity) for Stroud or smallish Bryce Young.

The trade market (unrealistic guys) was full of old established vets (Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Stafford) or young guys not going anywhere Allen, Kyler Murray, Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes).

We needed to make a move. 
 

In hindsight we could have traded maybe for Hurts and the haul we would have given up would have been much less for Jalen Hurts.  How many would have been on board for Hurts in 2022?

How many people really wanted Baker back after his 2021 performance?  Be honest. 
 

You're missing my point completely. In this draft, if the Browns draft Carter at #2 WHY him over others?  What's the reason(s) he's the guy they invest the pick in?  So, wouldn't it be bat-shit crazy to put him in a passive read and react 2 gap scheme upfront in lieu of using WHY you liked what you saw on film from this guy?  You want to use his quickness and explosion off the edge to hurry and sack passers; because that's WHY you invested a 2nd overall pick in him. Stay with me here.

We ALL know everything you said and I even liked it.  That said, this Owner & FO made a 230 million $ guaranteed salary investment on a guy they had no idea what kind of offense he even needed (ZERO film study on their part unless they're THAT bad).  That's the WHY they never researched before pulling the trigger.. Why do you invest in anything you haven't thoroughly researched to the tune of 230 million $?  They were still hiring and firing Offensive Coordinators and assistants prior to Watson's 3rd year and after his 3rd year - because they didn't have the 1st clue what kind of offense they needed for him.  Not to mention, their plan to protect their investment was an extremely lazy (and oft-injured) LT Jed Wills.  We're all just passionate fans of this team; but the Owner & FO has to put all the stuff in place to make success possible especially for an investment of that magnitude.  When I say WHY - I mean identify what you need on film and put it all in place so you nourish and protect what you purchased. 

I'll admit, I thought Watson would be a great player for us based on his trend of the last 2 teams he played for. WHY? Because watching him thrive at Clemson beating Ohio State & Alabama in back to back weeks showed me what he could do in a compatible offense for his skillset.  Houston drafted him and also gave him a compatible offense for his skillset to the tune of 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances in the 4 years he suited up.  Biggest difference of all between the 2 places he was successful at (Clemson & Houston) vrs Cleveland?  He had to work for his rewards in offenses that knew what he needed vrs Cleveland never successfully identifying what it was he needed via offensive design/strategy and coaching.  That's gonna go down in our lifetime as the least researched investment with horrible plans to protect it.  Trial and error for 3 years assures me they never found out what it was that worked before he got here; and/or they didn't have the know how to set up something even remotely close to it.  That's their job as Owner & FO - while we're just passionate fans bouncing opinions off each other.  

Here's the difference in stats from what Cleveland setup for him vrs what Houston did:

@sdbacker80 said:

How many people really wanted Baker back after his 2021 performance?  Be honest. 
 

I wasn't happy with him,the whole locker room seemed divided ( OBJ-itis). Browns were in a quandary regarding his contract. 

Hindsight is 20-20 but I wouldn't have given up on him. I always loved his heart, but I also knew he wasn't an " AFC North" QB. He definitely struggled against Pittsburgh & Baltimore in general.

I suspect that ultimately, the Browns FO decided OBJ & Baker had to go for team chemistry sake. 

@flugel said:

? I was asking myself that question - are we agreeing or disagreeing.  The biggest reason we're in this QB jam is because our Owner & FO felt they needed Watson they just never understood/asked WHY they needed him.  Why, in their opinion, was he going to change everything?  It's like nobody high up in the organization or coaching staff looked at any film to identify it. That's why they never figured out HOW to use him the way Houston did to get 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances with him in the 3-4 years he suited up there.  The Browns were still hiring offensive coaches and an OC heading into his 3rd year here with hopefully the right offense this time.  We saw the predictable outcome as more symptoms/scapegoats got fired again while the guys from Harvard continue to enjoy tenure

Unfortunately, these are the same people we're still counting on to draft us a QB and bring in a veteran.  

why?

The trade went down on the eve of the worst QB class in memory as you had Willis…Pickett…Howell…Ridder.  
You could wait a year (eternity) for Stroud or smallish Bryce Young.

The trade market (unrealistic guys) was full of old established vets (Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Stafford) or young guys not going anywhere Allen, Kyler Murray, Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes).

We needed to make a move. 
 

In hindsight we could have traded maybe for Hurts and the haul we would have given up would have been much less for Jalen Hurts.  How many would have been on board for Hurts in 2022?

How many people really wanted Baker back after his 2021 performance?  Be honest. 
 

@flugel said:

The biggest reason we're in this QB jam is because our Owner & FO felt they needed Watson they just never understood/asked WHY they needed him. 

The reason is, at least the Haslem's, didn't think Baker was good enough.  AND they had just seen what the Rams did in trading Goff for Stafford and immediately win the super bowl.  

@tiamat63 said:

Mason Graham is a hell of a player. 

 But unless he turns into Dexter Lawrence, an IDL pick that high isn't worth the investment.  Plus the Browns drafted their future 3 tech last year in Mikey Hall, although his health is a  dubious matter at the moment. 

 We're saying the same things bubs. Only difference is I'm questioning 'why?'.  This isn't macroeconomics.  Just because the price is higher, doesn't mean it *has* to be paid.  Taking a developmental QB isn't a need, it's a want, which is exactly what the bulk of this draft class is - developmental. 

 In any other year Will is a day 3 pick.  This over inflated value is similar to stock when it's artificially pumped up.  If you can see the crash, then avoid the collision.

? I was asking myself that question - are we agreeing or disagreeing.  The biggest reason we're in this QB jam is because our Owner & FO felt they needed Watson they just never understood/asked WHY they needed him.  Why, in their opinion, was he going to change everything?  It's like nobody high up in the organization or coaching staff looked at any film to identify it. That's why they never figured out HOW to use him the way Houston did to get 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances with him in the 3-4 years he suited up there.  The Browns were still hiring offensive coaches and an OC heading into his 3rd year here with hopefully the right offense this time.  We saw the predictable outcome as more symptoms/scapegoats got fired again while the guys from Harvard continue to enjoy tenure

Unfortunately, these are the same people we're still counting on to draft us a QB and bring in a veteran.  

@sdbacker80 said:

If you lean toward health and character with guys that probably have the highest floor it is these two:

Travis Hunter and Mason Graham (3-Technique fit).

Regarding Will Howard he played with lesser talent at KSU so we have that.  

Mason Graham is a hell of a player. 

 But unless he turns into Dexter Lawrence, an IDL pick that high isn't worth the investment.  Plus the Browns drafted their future 3 tech last year in Mikey Hall, although his health is a  dubious matter at the moment. 

@flugel said:

While your point isn't bad - it doesn't change the reality about supply and demand especially if you don't have a QB and you are holding the 2nd overall pick (followed by drafting near the top of every round).  That said, I'm not getting a strong impression anyone wants to trade up for a shot at Sanders or Ward but I could be wrong. I cut and pasted your follow up questions in italics here:

I suppose, in my development of Current Market Value vs Historic Market Value, I've begun asking more questions to contrast play between players.   

 Is Jaxon Dart really head and shoulders above where Matt Corral was? 

Has Will Howard done anything that merits a 3rd round pick? 

 Is Abdul Carter better than Micah Parsons? 

The question regarding Will Howard is how will he do on an NFL Offense that doesn't have the surrounding talent Ohio State had?  If someone likes what they see in him or thinks he can play with what they have - they're probably gonna draft him in a much earlier round than he'd get drafted in if this was a strong/deep QB draft.  That said, and this isn't my rule - 1 position that NFL teams traditionally reach on is the QB position (but to your line of thinking - it's prolly why there's so many errors from those reaching).  I'm not a huge Jaxson Dart fan; but I'd rather see if his skillset is compatible with the offense that is intrigued in him than why Corral couldn't work.  He's not a guy I hope we reach on fwiw. I think Carter has a shoulder injury he kept leaving his last game with that I'd need answered before I share interest with his bandwagon. That with the Browns Med/Sports Med Staff - gee what could go wrong? 

I've seen a lot of drafts, and when there's a run on certain positions - supply and demand is dictating.

 We're saying the same things bubs. Only difference is I'm questioning 'why?'.  This isn't macroeconomics.  Just because the price is higher, doesn't mean it *has* to be paid.  Taking a developmental QB isn't a need, it's a want, which is exactly what the bulk of this draft class is - developmental. 

 In any other year Will is a day 3 pick.  This over inflated value is similar to stock when it's artificially pumped up.  If you can see the crash, then avoid the collision.