@atenears said:

Thanks for answering my question, Ate, and I disagree totally with you.

I think points on the board make everyone better. The name of the game is to outscore the opponent, after all. And the unit responsible for points is the offense.

Defense wins championships, I agree, but only if there are points on the board to allow a win to occur. 3-0 is nice but dangerous living. 27-14 is better and 34-31 is just as good as either of them.

It's about points. It's ALWAYS about points.

You really disagree with me? Just look at two games I watched this weekend: ours and the Bears-Bungles.

The Packers scored quick and easy, going up big and allowing their D to attack and play loose, feeling good that if they happened to let up some points, the O could get 'em back. Of course, they didn't need the O to score more than the first TD but I'm sure they didn't mind the cushion.

Then check out what the Bungles did to the Bears. Four possessions, four scores, 24 points. Forced an already DA-like Cutler to have to try to pass his team back into it; guess what? It didn't work. 3 picks and a fumble guaranteed the Bungles win.

Would you say that the Bungles D won that game? Of course not. Palmer torched the crumbling Bears D and showed what a real QB does for a team. He makes it look easy. He inspires confidence. HE PUTS POINTS ON THE BOARD.

Oh, there's that pesky QB mention again. Hmm...why does that keep happening? Maybe because in both the games I just mentioned, two legit QBs destroyed the opposing D's and effectively decided the contests in the first quarter.

You can try to argue that the defenses weren't good enough and that it's about as chicken-or-egg as it gets but I'd simply say:

Which QB would you rather have had this weekend, in either of those games, regardless of the defense?

I rest my case.

We need playmakers on defense.

@roach said:

I think the two peewee teams that played during halftime had more game than the Browns. The passer on the White team had skills on par with Derek Anderson: He almost completed a pass for a touchdown, and threw an interception.

@damajuki said:

i stand by my post.

@roach said:

BTW, it was great to see Kath at the tailgate. She is prettier than when i met her in 1999. i wish we had more time to talk.

I think you're brilliant!! Especially that BTW part. You looked great too and ditto on the more time to talk.

@damajuki said:

Which is more likely, the D helping the O or the O helping the D?

I'd say Defense helps the Offense more.

A good defense keeps the score low and also gives your own offense a chance to fail (not play uptight) without getting into dire straits. With a good defense, also comes takeaways, and field position, giving your offense better opportunities to score. Great defenses also find a way to score themselves.

On the flip side, if you have a great offense with a lacking Defense, your Offense may play tight not wanting to turn the ball over for fear it will result into points. Scoring 'too fast', becomes a problem at times. You'll have to win shoot-outs at times, and that ain't necessarily being dominate, such was usually comes with being a great defensive team.

Defense wins championships. Not all the time, there are exceptions, just not enough to erase the old saying.

Could also matter if your offensive team is dominate in the run or the pass or both.

Then there are special teams, which can't be over-looked.

Overall, It's the greatest team game .... which brings us to this silly point of even applying any of these factors to the current Cleveland Browns, who ain't neither a decent offensive or defensive team, so the word 'help' can't even be applied.

BTW, I also did not bring up DA or BQ other than to inform you properly that this ain't a QB thread, it's about Defense.

... but I'll let Ed speak for himself now about what this thread was really about.

@damajuki said:

I'm not "reading" into anything. Roach brought up DA, not me. I asked roach if he felt that DA was as bad as the D. If he does, we're in agreement. If he doesn't, I'm confused.

And I didn't say a word about BQ. You did.

Anyway, my question stands and since you're speaking for roach here, you can answer it too:

Which is more likely, the D helping the O or the O helping the D?

You can leave the QB out, if it makes you feel better. I think it's a legit question in a thread about the D, don't you?

Dak my Croation brother! How goes it?

@atenears said:

That's all he's attempting to do ... let's not read too much more into it. There are plenty of BQ & DA threads out there, this one is one of the few trying to shed some light on a real dark problem that no one discusses at the Southern Californian rainbow parties, and that is our defense sucks.

Um...huh?

I'm not "reading" into anything. Roach brought up DA, not me. I asked roach if he felt that DA was as bad as the D. If he does, we're in agreement. If he doesn't, I'm confused.

And I didn't say a word about BQ. You did.

Anyway, my question stands and since you're speaking for roach here, you can answer it too:

Which is more likely, the D helping the O or the O helping the D?

You can leave the QB out, if it makes you feel better. I think it's a legit question in a thread about the D, don't you?

@roach said:

BTW, it was great to see Kath at the tailgate. She is prettier than when i met her in 1999. i wish we had more time to talk.

I agree that the defense needs some serious help. But, the the offense needs to step up. The defense was on the field for more than 35 minutes! Against a team that has a quick-strike offense that doesn't normally eat up a lot of the clock! That is a very tired defensive unit by halftime...if not by the end of the first quarter! DA is a huge joke! His numbers are pathetic. And 75% of the passes he is throwing are not even remotely close to being catchable! I tell my wife every week that I won't watch or listen to the next game. But I always bring myself back for more punishment. I know what is going to happen. It is inevitable. Daboll's game plan reads..."run, run, pass, punt" on every drive. With DA in there, he gets to spare Zastudil occasionally with the run, run, pass/pick! Mangini is quickly losing any credibility he still has by continuing to play DA after yanking Quinn for him. Quinn's completion rate for the season is around 20 points higher than DA's. And he was yanked after 10 quarters of play? We've since had to endure 18 quarters of Dumb-Ass?! FOR WHAT REASON! Get BQ back in there, get Ratliff in there, get Cribbs in there (Don't even get me started on the wildcatless.). Mankok has got to do something...NOW!

@mastadave99999 said:

Sunday the possession time was 36 minutes Green Bay 23 minutes us... Big difference we can't sustain drives and we can't keep our defense of the field.

Our first and foremost priority must be our offense points are kinda necessary

If that was the problem with our defense, then how do you explain the Time of possession at the half favoring us 15:44 -to- 14:16 for Green Bay ... and the score 21-3 them?

Because of the Interception?

Ok fine, i'll give you that one, but how do you explain the 14-3 rut we found ourselves in when Green Bay's first 11:19 in possessions, having put up 211 yards of offense in their first three possesion? Browns led the TOP with 11:50 and ran more offensive plays in the first half than the Packers, yet the game was already over.

Perhaps if the defense could get a few 3-n-outs of their own, the offense might find a rythm?

@mark-o said:

Heres the problem Mark... We have no offense none.. We have to score points first our defense can come after. Our defense barely leaves the field.

Sunday the possession time was 36 minutes Green Bay 23 minutes us... Big difference we can't sustain drives and we can't keep our defense of the field.

Our first and foremost priority must be our offense points are kinda necessary

@damajuki said:

If you agree DA is putrid, then we're on the same page. But if you're saying DA gets -- ANOTHER -- pass because the D was putrid, well, I don't get that at all.

The fact is that putrid begets putrid and competence begets competence.

I say we start with the coaches and then the QB and then the RB and then the D.

Fix the top and the rest will get better.

Put another way: DA getting better would help the D. The D getting better doesn't help DA.

I believe he is only trying to bring attention to the defensive problem. If the thread was titled 'Defense should shoulder some blame', no one would read it because BQ or DA ain't in the title.

That's all he's attempting to do ... let's not read too much more into it. There are plenty of BQ & DA threads out there, this one is one of the few trying to shed some light on a real dark problem that no one discusses at the Southern Californian rainbow parties, and that is our defense sucks.

If you agree DA is putrid, then we're on the same page. But if you're saying DA gets -- ANOTHER -- pass because the D was putrid, well, I don't get that at all.

The fact is that putrid begets putrid and competence begets competence.

I say we start with the coaches and then the QB and then the RB and then the D.

Fix the top and the rest will get better.

Put another way: DA getting better would help the D. The D getting better doesn't help DA.

@dabrowns41 said:

Actually, funny how you don't use this game to support your stance on Quinn. There were two other games where the Browns held the time of possession through the first half. One being the Viking game that BQ started, and the other the Bronco's game that BQ started.

We held a 13-10 lead against the Vikes in the first half (16:06 -to- 13:54 TOP advantage), yet the Defense still got raped in the second half for 24 points, losing eventually 34-20

In the Denver game, we trailed 10-6 at the half despite winning the TOP (16:07 -to- 13:53), our defense was ass-raped in that one 27-6.

We will forgive the tough-guy comments you threw at me earlier, it's not to late to join the fundamentally challenged defense bandwagon bashing.

@dabrowns41 said:

I like how you had to pull out this game, but you fail to look at the majority of DA's games, like I stated.

Majority of our losses with DA at QB, it's because of all the 3 and outs. Go back, do some research. Learn a few things about this team, then come back to the forum and try to talk. Same thing happened with BQ, same thing used to happen with Charlie Frye.

Sure, our defense isn't great. But you can't expect them to be great 100% of the time when the QB can't even get a first down.

Either way, the fact that your defend DA is sad, and you should probably get some counseling and read a few "Football for Dummies" books because watching DA is not watching a QB play football. One day you'll learn, skippy. Then, you can come back and talk football with the big boys.

Well, that was a sheepish reply.

This thread is about Defense, that why I posted about Defense. Show me one shread of evidence where I defend DA here in this thread.

You toss up an excuse for the Defense about time of possesion and I prove that you are not wrong, and so you switch gears to turning it back to DA.

(NOTE: I love how everyone blames everyone else for turning all threads into the BQ/DA debates)

I wasn't talking about DA here. I'm talking about the fact that we can't tackle and our defense was horrible yesterday. To bring up our QB play from previous games, is a weak opposition for our tackling yesterday.

Perhaps maybe "one day you should learn, then come back and talk football with the big boys". Nice personal attack btw, after wiping egg from your face.

@atenears said:

We ran more offensive plays than the Packers in the first half. Our Defense gave up a 71-yard TD on the Packers 2nd possesion, the Packers went 96-yards on 3 plays on their third possesion, and 15-yards in 7 plays for a TD on their fourth possesion. The only possesion in the first half they didn't score on was an 11-play drive that was miraculously halted on downs.

Packers had the ball for 6:25 in the first quarter, the Browns 8:35

Packers had the ball for 7:51 in the second quarter, the Browns 7:09

Total first half possessions, Packers: 14:16, Browns 15:44

Score: 21-3

I bet the Defense was exhausted ... poor guys

Wow, that must be a first!

I like how you had to pull out this game, but you fail to look at the majority of DA's games, like I stated.

Majority of our losses with DA at QB, it's because of all the 3 and outs. Go back, do some research. Learn a few things about this team, then come back to the forum and try to talk. Same thing happened with BQ, same thing used to happen with Charlie Frye.

Sure, our defense isn't great. But you can't expect them to be great 100% of the time when the QB can't even get a first down.

Either way, the fact that your defend DA is sad, and you should probably get some counseling and read a few "Football for Dummies" books because watching DA is not watching a QB play football. One day you'll learn, skippy. Then, you can come back and talk football with the big boys.

@dabrowns41 said:

That's pretty silly, if you ask me. You're an idiot to think that fatigue doesn't play a factor in this game.

Really?

We ran more offensive plays than the Packers in the first half. Our Defense gave up a 71-yard TD on the Packers 2nd possesion, the Packers went 96-yards on 3 plays on their third possesion, and 15-yards in 7 plays for a TD on their fourth possesion. The only possesion in the first half they didn't score on was an 11-play drive that was miraculously halted on downs.

Packers had the ball for 6:25 in the first quarter, the Browns 8:35

Packers had the ball for 7:51 in the second quarter, the Browns 7:09

Total first half possessions, Packers: 14:16, Browns 15:44

Score: 21-3

I bet the Defense was exhausted ... poor guys

@atenears said:

(was that a trick question, or something?)

Oh, so you expect a defense to get a minute to 2 minutes of rest after a drive and come back out and shut down a top defense?

That's pretty silly, if you ask me. You're an idiot to think that fatigue doesn't play a factor in this game.

@dabrowns41 said:

2/12 on third down conversions... 12 total first downs (4 by the pass).

When you get as many 3 and outs as DA does on a regular basis, how do you expect a defense to stop the opposing team? Let alone one with an already solid offense?

ANSWER: By tackling them?

(was that a trick question, or something?)