@mopaji said:

This team needs to build a winning organization. It needs a front office. Is Mangini the one to really build that? I don't think so. His hand-picked GM is gone already. It's pretty clear that he's alienated the team. While there's few players on this team whose performance gives them any business complaining, Lewis certainly included, I just think in general it's bad ot have a situation like this.

@hoorta said:

Yeah . . . so what exactly is your point? Why would you want to replace Mangini with a guy who's had no more recent success and, for the last 5 years, hasn't been able to field an above average offense when that is supposed to be his forte. You notice two of the last five years Gruden's teams WERE dead last?

Two points on Garcia: 1) he was there because Chuckie can't/will not develop a young QB; and 2) Dude, did you miss that Garcia was a Pro Bowl QB after leaving the Browns? Here's his passer rating for the last three years: 2008 90.4 2007 95 2006 96. We'd do back flips if Quinn approached that level of QB play. Hell, we might be 9-7.

Brian Griese, who Chucky benched Garcia for after one bad game (sound familiar) had a 69 passer rating last year. With the addition of Winslow, the Bucs have won one game this year without Garcia. I'm thinking he wasn't Chuckie's problem in TB. The guy's like 90 years old. He gave Gruden more than anyone could have expected in TB. Ironically, all that TB had going for it last year was two guys Butch Davis left on his roster and Opie cast off -- Garcia and Bryant. I think you are directing your anger at the wrong person. Look at the crap roster Mangini inherited and then go back and trace Opie's moves as GM.

Other than Thomas Opie did not draft one OL that plays anywhere in the NFL. After 5 drafts with the 3-4 in mind, we don't have the the personnel to run a 3-4 . . . I could go on for another 70 lines or so. People really expected that to be fixed in ONE OFFSEASON? An offseason where, coming in, the Browns had only 4 picks?

Did you stick your head in a hole in 2004 and just now come up for air? That would explain being hot for Gruden and saying that Garcia sucked.

@hoorta said:

Ohio guy, Super Bowl winner. Offenses sucked? bottom third? Sure beats dead last. I saw Garcia- yeah, we saw how great a qb he is. Fans would be doing cartwheels if the Browns sniffed 9-7 next year.

I would prefer to go 4-12 again if it means we're building a long-term contender. I'm sorry but 9-7 means nothing to me if its followed by a losing record. Take the time, build it right, and lets have a real franchise in Cleveland again.

@chip-banks said:

THE GOOD

1998 Oakland Raiders 8 8

1999 Oakland Raiders 8 8

2000 Oakland Raiders 12 4

2001 Oakland Raiders 10 6

2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 12 4 Super Bowl Champions

______________________________________________________________________

THE LESS-THAN-MEDIOCRE

2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 7 9 (9th Offensively)

2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 5 11 (22nd Offensively)

2005 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 11 5 (24th Offensively)

2006 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 4 12 (29th Offensively)

2007 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 9 7 (18th Offensively)

2008 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 9 7 (13th Offensively)

After winning a SB with Tony Dungy's defense, offensive mastermind "Chucky" has a losing record. Over the last three years, his record was WORSE than Mangini's!! The season-end collapse last year was monumental:

"With Garcia back as the starter for week 6, the Buccaneers went 6-1 over the next 7 games. At the end of November, Tampa Bay found themselves in first place in the NFC South. They tied a franchise best start of 9-3, were undefeated at home (6-0), and controlled their own destiny for a first-round bye in the playoffs.

The month of December, however, saw the Buccaneers season collapse. A humiliating loss on Monday Night Football against Carolina took away their hopes of a division title. Meanwhile, longtime defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin announced he was leaving to join his son Lane at Tennessee. The defense began to struggle mightily, especially against the run. An overtime loss at Atlanta, followed by two home losses, dropped the Bucs to 9-7, and out of the playoffs. Less than three weeks later, head coach Gruden and general manager Bruce Allen were fired."

Remember, Gruden was an offensive guy, but his offenses were seldom prolific. Kiffin was to him what Belichick was to Parcells and Mike Nolan was to Brian Billick. Add this to the equation -- "Chucky" never developed a QB. Since 2003 his offenses were in the bottom 1/3 of the league 4 out of 5 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Gruden get a job with an NFL team. But only to save me from having to listen to his totally affected "tough guy" over-articulation on MNF. I just don't want it to be the Browns.

Funny how the RED part describes Mangini's last year with the Jets too.

Ohio guy, Super Bowl winner. Offenses sucked? bottom third? Sure beats dead last. I saw Garcia- yeah, we saw how great a qb he is. Fans would be doing cartwheels if the Browns sniffed 9-7 next year.

@hoorta said:

What's the love for Gruden? That people recognize his name?

THE GOOD

1998 Oakland Raiders 8 8

1999 Oakland Raiders 8 8

2000 Oakland Raiders 12 4

2001 Oakland Raiders 10 6

2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 12 4 Super Bowl Champions

______________________________________________________________________

THE LESS-THAN-MEDIOCRE

2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 7 9 (9th Offensively)

2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 5 11 (22nd Offensively)

2005 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 11 5 (24th Offensively)

2006 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 4 12 (29th Offensively)

2007 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 9 7 (18th Offensively)

2008 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 9 7 (13th Offensively)

After winning a SB with Tony Dungy's defense, offensive mastermind "Chucky" has a losing record. Over the last three years, his record was WORSE than Mangini's!! The season-end collapse last year was monumental:

"With Garcia back as the starter for week 6, the Buccaneers went 6-1 over the next 7 games. At the end of November, Tampa Bay found themselves in first place in the NFC South. They tied a franchise best start of 9-3, were undefeated at home (6-0), and controlled their own destiny for a first-round bye in the playoffs.

The month of December, however, saw the Buccaneers season collapse. A humiliating loss on Monday Night Football against Carolina took away their hopes of a division title. Meanwhile, longtime defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin announced he was leaving to join his son Lane at Tennessee. The defense began to struggle mightily, especially against the run. An overtime loss at Atlanta, followed by two home losses, dropped the Bucs to 9-7, and out of the playoffs. Less than three weeks later, head coach Gruden and general manager Bruce Allen were fired."

Remember, Gruden was an offensive guy, but his offenses were seldom prolific. Kiffin was to him what Belichick was to Parcells and Marvin Lewis was to Brian Billick. Add this to the equation -- "Chucky" never developed a QB. Since 2003 his offenses were in the bottom 1/3 of the league 4 out of 5 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Gruden get a job with an NFL team. But only to save me from having to listen to his totally affected "tough guy" over-articulation on MNF. I just don't want it to be the Browns.

Why exactly would Quinn deserve playing time other than to receive by some sort of default. It could be a default in that the other guy stunk up the joint, or by default since he was drafted so high, but never-the-less, it's the ONLY reason to play the third year rookie.

I don't think Brady has done much to win the job as much as DA has just been aweful and Brady has been a good sport. Because of that, I don't think any coach can justify keeping him on the bench when the guy in front of him has mounted 1 win and terrible numbers; regardless of the circumstances. Brady's ability isn't why he 's getting the nod, its a matter of principle and "integrity" at this point. Plus, we'll know how aggressive we need to be in the off-season as far as persuing a QB goes.

1) He hitched his horse to DA and it was catastrophic. Quinn wasn't moving the team and DA evolved into something worse. At this point, you can't defend DA anymore.

2) If Mangini is back or someone else is calling the shots, you really need to remove the "but he never got a chance" argument from the Quinn equation.

My favorite analyst is Pat Kirwan and when asked directly, PK doesn't feel like the QB of the future is currently on the roster. My opinion is the same.

@atenears said:

Yeah, it seems like most people back him but expected better than 1-7 which I can understand. Its surprising because all the media and talk radio callers do is bash him. I thought I would get a more accurate reading from this board because outside of the QB debate, people here are all around better and more informed fans. But it does sound like overall, fans are willing to give him a fair shot over the next 2-3 years and that's all I'm asking for, a fair shot. I do understand its hard to find a positive when you look at our record but I really believe he's doing this the right way and we will have to take our lumps in the beginning. I hope Lerner understands that and doesn't panic.

@mohican said:

What would be YOUR reason for playing Quinn? Or, would you just not play him?

The QB 'debacle' has been going on here for three years with the same cast (ten years with similar cast). The only thing that has been a debacle is that none of these clowns seized the moment when given an opportunity.

Would a great QB not even look up-field to throw a forward pass, or throw off-target, throw too early, throw too late, time and time again?

Why exactly would Quinn deserve playing time other than to receive by some sort of default. It could be a default in that the other guy stunk up the joint, or by default since he was drafted so high, but never-the-less, it's the ONLY reason to play the third year rookie.

@atenears said:

I just want to excuse all the so-called trouble, because a lot of it is whiney media posers acting like they have a personal vendetta. It's not even journalism, it's whining.

... and I will probably say this 80 times before Mangini is let go ... but this whole media rantings reminds me of the Belichick lynching of the early 90's.

Yeah Stan, I remember "Metcalf up the middle" and Bernie's diminishing skills. Wrong on one, right on the other.

Oh, the Belichek lynching of the 90s was a tempest in a teapot compared to this. Now shall we discuss Anderson's "diminishing skills"? DA has the potential of a whale turd sitting on the bottom of the ocean, yet Mangini seems primed to give this POS yet another chance- and that would be to set the ALL TIME RECORD FOR WORST PASSER RATING IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!!!

When your team captain spouts off to the media, you'd better notice. When 95% of the national reporting is negative, you'd better notice. When your offensive (really offensive) coordinator is afraid to let a college quarterback try more than one pass out of the WildDawg, I sure notice.

@edwardg said:

Lerner needs to simply pick a good exec and let that guy pick the coach. No more of this svengali coach nonsense where the coach rules the roost. No more immature dingalings like Savage. I'm sure there were fans who thought that Lerner hiring Mangini the way he did was a good idea (before the GM), but I don't know any. It was so OBVIOUSLY ridiculous. Now Lerner has another guy in Kokonis who he's paying to hang out at the beach.

As I've mentioned before, Lerner needs a President of Football Operations & that person should be hired by Lerner AND a team of "football wise" consultants. Then that person or team needs to select a GM, then go with a Coach (be it Mangini or another) with whom they can work cohesively.

As good a Coach as I believe Cowher was, you are correct, he hired into a GREAT system. Hopefully, we can create a good & well functioning system here.

Mike

Lerner needs to simply pick a good exec and let that guy pick the coach. No more of this svengali coach nonsense where the coach rules the roost. No more immature dingalings like Savage. I'm sure there were fans who thought that Lerner hiring Mangini the way he did was a good idea (before the GM), but I don't know any. It was so OBVIOUSLY ridiculous. Now Lerner has another guy in Kokonis who he's paying to hang out at the beach.

@edwardg said:

However, my main contention is that Mangini should have NOTHING to do with the hiring of the new exec and GM. When that exec and GM comes in, it should be HIS choice on whether Mangini stays or goes.

I'm still a Mangini apologist, but I can agree with this post. Good post, well said.

I just want to excuse all the so-called trouble, because a lot of it is whiney media posers acting like they have a personal vendetta. It's not even journalism, it's whining.

... and I will probably say this 80 times before Mangini is let go ... but this whole media rantings reminds me of the Belichick lynching of the early 90's.

However, my main contention is that Mangini should have NOTHING to do with the hiring of the new exec and GM. When that exec and GM comes in, it should be HIS choice on whether Mangini stays or goes.

@mopaji said:

You have to be pleased with the results of this poll. I'm thinking it surprised you?

#1I know both QBs suck, but stick with one, dont flip flop, its gets us nowhere, the Qbs cant improve, and its just annoying

#2. this draft better be freaking amazing, cause this one, other than one good game by Mohammad, has shown me nothing at all.

#3 Make damn sure Quinn IS NOT the future, cause if he isnt than we need another QB, so get one.

#4 Quit being a control freak, i know its crazy but there are other people out there more talented than Mangini at what they specifically do. MAngini is a coach. Coaches coach, General Managers manage, so Mangini, do your job and the new GM will do theirs, if the even keep you on.

I am not saying all this because i hate the guy, he had two winning seasons in three years with the Jets which we havent had in awhile so he can coach some, its just the hiding stuff, the flip flopping, the abrupt dismissal of the GM that bother me. Yes i want wins and losses but i also want class, and it just doesnt seem like Mangini has much.

I am skeptical but would love nothing better than to be pleasantly surprised.

There is no reason for me to support this guy or not. Support can be measured with Ws and Ls.

nmills said:

Cleveland has always been pissed on by everyone that has no idea what Cleveland is like, and never even visited Cleveland. From ESPN to The Late Show, everyone takes shots at Cleveland. Alot of people say Clevelanders are arrogant, its not arrogance its a US VERSE THE WORLD mentality because of the unnesisary dissrespect from outsiders. Now Mangini has to deal with all the negative media that us Clevelanders have always dealt with, when he gets this team turned around it wont only be for him or the browns or Cleveland, but all of Ohio. We'll be able to stand proud and say we did it all by are self. Theres no greater satisfaction then proving someone wrong. I hope and beleive Mangini can do that and when he does I'll be glad to call him my coach

Post of the decade!

Cleveland has always been pissed on by everyone that has no idea what Cleveland is like, and never even visited Cleveland. From ESPN to The Late Show, everyone takes shots at Cleveland. Alot of people say Clevelanders are arrogant, its not arrogance its a US VERSE THE WORLD mentality because of the unnesisary dissrespect from outsiders. Now Mangini has to deal with all the negative media that us Clevelanders have always dealt with, when he gets this team turned around it wont only be for him or the browns or Cleveland, but all of Ohio. We'll be able to stand proud and say we did it all by are self. Theres no greater satisfaction then proving someone wrong. I hope and beleive Mangini can do that and when he does I'll be glad to call him my coach

To expect a winner this year was not reasonable. Personally, I think a lot of positive things have been done & I'm willing to wait it out.

I honestly think Mangini will do fine, but we need to be patient. Folks may agree or disagree with me about him, but I WOULD like to see the personal slurs stop. That comes from a mentality that makes fun of others which I consider to bet a bully's behavior, and that's pretty gutless.

Just my opinions...those of a lifelong Brown's fan who feels we ARE finally on the right track..let's not de-rail the train now.

Mike