@samoth said:

He also had one season in his career where he threw over 20 TDs.

He was the ultimate system QB -- hand off to Emmitt, short pass to Irvin with huge YAC.

Your point being that Jimmy Johnson was able to do with he did with Troy Aikman, just a mediocre "ultimate system QB who would do little more than hand off to Emmit and short pass to Irvin" just imagine how dominant the Browns will be?

Good luck promoting that theory. It's really a shame they only let the mediocre players go to the Pro Bowl (six times) and the Super Bowl (three times).

Sadly the analogies between these 1-15 teams end pretty quickly.

Jimmy Johnson was bold enough to take a chance on a rookie QB and let him develop during a lost season. Mangini has a lost season without purpose.

@joesixpat said:

Maybe Troy Aikman will come here to play! It would probably be an improvement!

Aikman threw 9 TDs and 18 INTs his rookie year.

He also had one season in his career where he threw over 20 TDs.

He was the ultimate system QB -- hand off to Emmitt, short pass to Irvin with huge YAC.

@samoth said:

I seem to recall he had a pretty good rookie QB on that team too.

Maybe Troy Aikman will come here to play! It would probably be an improvement!

@alendor said:

Thank you Captain Obvious!

(And in fact I think Mangini would be due a place in the Hall of Fame if he had 15 wins after 11 games!)

But I agree that EVEN with Mangini botching the trade value of two starting QBs, having "questionable" player relations at best, making bad front office hirings, a bad GM hire, a bad Offensive Coordinator hire, throwing his former friend Kokinis under the bus, adding Jim Schwartz to a list of his former friends he accuses of cheating, forcing rookies to take a bus to Hartford, levying outrageous fines for stealing water bottles, and moving historic Browns Murals to more visible locations that don't seem to be visible (no one still seems to be able to tell me where it went) etc. etc... fans would be willing to forgive all those bonehead moves and more if he were 10-1 as of now.

However since many of those decisions CAN'T be overlooked and in fact many have CONTRIBUTED to an approach that seems intent on taking 100 steps backwards before moving forward, and resulted in a 1-10 record "as of now" it's a bit much to ask fans to overlook all his clear shortcomings as a coach and decision maker in the organization.

All of Mangini's A-hole Personality Traits would certainly be viewed a bit differently if he was winning, no doubt.

An A-Hole Coach who wins is a great coach. An A-Hole Coach who loses is a loser (and an a-hole). It is pretty simple, you're correct.

@hoorta said:

Berry's a great player, but DBs don't get taken in the first 5 picks. Suh and Rodgers would be nice.

If we stay high in the first round, get me anyone for the front seven on D that has a clue how to stuff the run #1 need in my book. #2 running back, #3 legit wr, #4 RT, RG.

I agree with you completely I wouldn't take Berry that high. But I'm hoping we can trade that pick and move down a few spots in the first while picking up a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Then, I go for Berry between 10-15. Pay less, get an instant contributer, and pick up another draft pick.

Dawgfanforever88 said:

Not to mention the guys he brought in from NY seem to "get" Mangini and believe in him. A few even decided to sign with a team that was about to begin a tear-down and rebuild process knowing they weren't going to be contending for another year or two. I can't help but think that that had something to do with the coach they would be playing for. They may not be superstars but if Mangini was really hated by his players why would any of them decide to come and play for him again? Young Abe Elam even requested a trade to a really bad Cleveland team! If the coach was so bad, why would he choose to play and develope with a bad team rather than an up-and-coming NY team? Could it be that he liked his coach?

I think the players seemingly not enjoying themselves are the one's he inherited from "Club Romeo". Their probably a little bit pissed that they can't just relax and collect lots of money without any fear of being benched, traded, or cut. Now, they have to work just like every other player in the league and they probably don't like that the gravy train is coming off the tracks. And when you factor in the fact that very few of said players are even good enough to play in the NFL, you get a 1 win team. And that has less to do with the Coach being cocky and more to do with what I explained above.

@mopaji said:

Please Browns, stay the hell away from Clausen! Outside of Montana I can't think of any Notre Dame QB that has done anything significant in the NFL. Clausen is all smoke and mirrors. The only QB I would take in the first round is Locker. Still, I hope we don't get a QB until the 4th or 5th round. Develope him in this system for a year or two and let him rip in 2012.

Totally agree about the 4-5 round QB. Tim Hiller, Western Michigan he is an Ohio native who is a pocket passer, very smart kid just what Mangini likes in a player. Had mediocre season due to NO talent around him, but when he played w/ Greg Jennings a few seasons ago he was dynamite and same last season he beat Illininois. I think he would be perfect for this situation.

So apparently Alendor believes this thread should be reserved for people who dislike like Mangini... just so long as people who dislike Mangini don't waste everyone's time responding.

i'm just saying hes wasting his time writing paragraphs of reasons, when not many care what he has to say at this point. i'm sure if you read his posts in this thread alone there are nothing but bashing mangini due to some sort of angry vendetta against him, because he took the jets job after leaving the pats, not logical, thought out reasons everyone else here has. if i spent all kinds of time writing full pages of stuff like he did, i'd sure want someone to tell me that no one is reading it, so next time i wouldn't spend so much time on it. just giving him some friendly advice so that he can be a more effecient troll.

@mopaji said:

Please Browns, stay the hell away from Clausen! Outside of Montana I can't think of any Notre Dame QB that has done anything significant in the NFL. Clausen is all smoke and mirrors. The only QB I would take in the first round is Locker. Still, I hope we don't get a QB until the 4th or 5th round. Develop him in this system for a year or two and let him rip in 2012.

I'm pretty sure we won't be drafting another ND qb anytime soon, even if Charlie rolls into town.

Berry's a great player, but DBs don't get taken in the first 5 picks. Suh and Rodgers would be nice.

If we stay high in the first round, get me anyone for the front seven on D that has a clue how to stuff the run #1 need in my book. #2 running back, #3 legit wr, #4 RT, RG.

@joesixpat said:

Perhaps someone should start a thread asking that specific question. That would probably be a good idea, don't you think?

You did kinda walk into that one Alendor, but I get what ya mean none of joe's(or anybody's for that matter except the dude who said 1-10) have any factual evidence to back up why they dont like him and its basically what I thought would be the out come anyhow.

@alendor said:

Like i said, your wasting time typing anything longer than "I hate mangini, and i want you all too aswell"

Yeah, you're right. This probably isn't the appropriate thread in which to list the reasons why peope dislike Mangini.

Perhaps someone should start a thread asking that specific question. That would probably be a good idea, don't you think?

Like i said, your wasting time typing anything longer than "I hate mangini, and i want you all too aswell"

@alendor said:

just an fyi

Since answering 12 simple questions is clearly too much for your internal microprocessor to handle, allow me to offer the "answers" that I've seen from the fewer and fewer Browns fans who are deluding themselves that all is well and Mangini clearly has the team on it's way to a championship.

1.) Lerner had to rush to hire Mangini before a CFL or Austrailian Rules Football team snatched him up.

2.) Other teams aren't smart enough to see a good coach like Randy Lerner can.

3.) Mangini's ability to hire quality front officer personnel is unquestioned (by everyone except Kokinis and Erin what'shername)

4.) Mangini's willingness to sacrifice his friends so quickly and readilly should make his enemies truly quake in their boots. (If that's how he treats his friends, then WATCH OUT Steelers, Ravens, etc.!)

5.) Free agents will be knocking down the door to play for Mangini and his 1-15 team next year.

6.) Cleveland players on the roster LOVE it that guys who simply used to wear a Jets uniform can waltz in and take a starting position. (Hank Poteat's earned his position!)

7.) Mangini and Kokinis played everyone else in the draft for fools. The 5th pick in the draft wasn't worth much anyways and there was no one good taken before 21 that the Browns would rather have.

8.) No true Browns fan wants to go anywhere near the Mural story, lest that shatter their illusion. It's up somewhere more apparent and more visible than ever before. It's just that no one seems to know where.

9.) Mangini is to be credited with his handling of the QB situaiton. Both Quinn and Anderson are more confident than ever before and Mangnini has maximized their trade value.

10.) The offense is in good hands with Daboll. Mangini really has a knack for picking coaches as well as front office personnel.

11.) The team is moving in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to take 137 bakcwards before taking a step forward.

12.) Thanks to Mangini, the Browns are again a respected and credible organization. Thank God we're not a 4-12 team anymore.

There - was that so hard?

Its not all his fault but he continued to start Derek Anderson even after his 2-19 performance. i just feel Mangini isn't looking ways to fix things. He has made few efforts to fix the offense. Obsvioulsy the talent is low but cmon change the playbook or something.

@brownindian said:

>> Trade Down: there was no one worth taking at such a high pick

I think Michael Crabtree and Brian Orakpo have each made the case that they would have been good picks at #5.

For all that's been said about Crabtree's character, the guy has been more than impressive on the field. How many rookies could join the team mid-season and immediately put up good numbers (26 catches, 346 yards, 1 TD through six games)? That he showed up in playing shape speaks to his solid work ethic.

And despite being compared to Vernon Gholston by many people, including Texas fans, Brian Orakpo's transitioned well to playing linebacker and has already notched 7 sacks.

In hindsight, both of those guys would have been pretty good picks. And I'm not sure that the yield from our trade down looks all that solid, especially if Veikune can't contribute.

just an fyi

Reason: Because I can see with my own two perfectly functional eyes that he absolutely sucks.

Asking one's self some questions may help.

1.) The hire: Do people think that Lerner rushed to hire a HC? Or that he needed to rush to hire Mangini in particular?

2.) Do fans think that there might have been a reason why no other organization was interested in Mangini?

3.) Do fans think that Mangini's has proven his ability to select appropriate front office personnel? (Especially after Erin whatshername and Kokinis were let go the way they were?)

4.) Do fans think that maybe, with Mangini attacking or abandoning so many of his former "friends" - Belichick, Kokinis, Erin WhatsHerName, Schwartz - that maybe that reflects on him as a person and manager?

5.) Free agency: Do people think that with all the players available to Mangini in free agency that he significantly upgraded the team? Or have his choices, especially so many abandonded Jets players - upgraded the team?

6.) Do fans think that perhaps players who are not former Jets are being treated the same as players who Mangini has worked with before (i.e. have those former Jets truly earned their playing time?)

7.) On the draft, when one compares the Patriots trading back from 23 to 26 that eventually netted them them a #3 WR (Edelman) Brandon Tate, a starting CB (Darius Butler), and a second rounder next year - all in return for dropping back 3 spots in the mid 20s, did Mangini get enough for trading out of the #5 spot? (Especially when so many fans insist that Mangini will develop this team through the draft?)

8.) Do fans buy the "Mural" story... i.e. that the mural was taken down so it could be showcased in a more visible place? (I actually don't know the answer to this... if anyone knows where the "prominent" place the Mural of Browns History was re-displayed please let me know but from what I can tell it's gone.)

9.) Do fans think that Mangini handled the QB situation well? Are Brady and Anderson worth more for trade now than they were when he got there? Should Mangini have made a move to grab available QBs in the offseason?

10.) Do fans think that Mangini's decision to have Daboll at OC is a wise one?

11.) Do fans think that this team, which could end 1-15, a record that has seen more than one first year head coach lose his job in the past, has this team moving in the right direction?

12.) Do fans think that Mangini's relations and perceptions among players and in the NFL in general will help or hurt their ability to attract the best free agents?

That's just a dozen questions to start. Ask yourself the questions and answer them honestly.

My answers don't reflect positively on the ability of the current coach to help a historic franchise return to the greatness it deserves. My answers suggest that the (Charlie) Browns have taken some significant steps back, and I question whether the current Coach/GM can attract free agents, make the right choices in the draft, and actually inspire players to play beyond their talents with the benefit of good play calling.

I honestly don't know the answer to the Mural question - I thought this was all media over-reaction at first but I've more recently heard that the excuse that the mural was being moved to a more visible location was in fact BS, and the mural is gone. Not a huge issue in terms of the football team but it would be insult to injury this season if the Browns were my #1 team. As a pure football fan first, I take great offense at a coach coming in and doing what he did, if in fact that's the case.

if people saw us sucking this bad before the season even started, then its most likely because we have no xxxxing players on the team that are any good. hell, they saw us doing this bad when we still had winslow and BE on the roster.

the only bad decisions mangini has really made is sticking with DA, and Daboll. both of which we won't be much more productive if those 2 are changed anyways.

bottom line, we have shitty players, most of which couldn't start for other nfl teams. that is why we suck, it doesnt' have much to do with mangini at this point.