@trodgers said:

Penn State 25-36, 287 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INT (They went 9-4, finished top 25)

Purdue 29-38, 316, 2 TD, 1 INT (went 8-6, were undefeated when they faced ND)

UCLA 27-45, 304, 2, 0 (went 7-6, beat USC)

USC 22-45, 274, 3, 0 (went 11-2)

If you've provided an algorithm for explaining Quinn's success vs. Detroit, what happened in games vs. San Diego: 25-45, 271 yards, 4 TDs or Denver last season: 23-35, 239 yards, 2 TDs?

I'm not saying he's elite, or even that he has played particularly well, but it becomes a bit difficult to simply explain away three very successful games in so few career starts. [For the record, in 14 career games, he has 1902 yards, 10 TDs, 9 INTs, and a 52% completion percentage; not great, but not different from what a lot of young QBs who go on to great success in the NFL do early in their playing careers.]

Okay, thanks for the reply T-Rod and I always like it when people provide examples the way you did! I'll try to give you my replies based on where I'm coming from (hopefully it won't look like Saturn).

Denver was so injury ridden they were hiring LBers, DBs and dowlinemen off the streets. Plus, our final scores vrs that Denver team last year and Detroit this year weren't on the winning side of a very winable matchup. These weren't elite defenses at the time and while it was his his 2 best outings - we can only excuse him for losing. Come to think of it, how much did Quinn beat San Diego by? Reality is when teams get comfortable leads they give up underneathe stuff the way San Diego did without ever feeling like they needed all their defensive starters or aggressive schemes against us.

I'm gonna be honest, I WANTED Quinn to succeed; mainly because I felt like that represented hope in the sense that we don't inevitably need to go in another direction at QB for the umpteenth time. Usually when a QB project fails it means another freakin new offense, new OC and new Head Coach as we've seen how many times since 1999? Maybe all we really need is the RIGHT Qb like BB found in NE when Bledsoe had him winless and Brady had him holding a Lombardi Trophy same season.

If we want to keep it real: which of these teams that locked up playoff spots have a shakey starting QB?

Indy

Minnesota

Philly

New England

San Diego

New Orleans

Dallas

Cincy

You can't set up the run with the pass or the pass with the run if you don't have a reliable QB. GOOD teams/defenses can beat a 1 dimensional offense. I think we're lucky KC, Buffalo, Oakland and Pittsbrugh were crappy enough on games our completions percentages were 40 and under. What was DA's completion percentage when he went 2 of 17 vrs Buffalo? You can't REALLY open up the playbook beyond what's working so how much did we hear the OC sucks? Too much for fairness.

The wishful thinking side of me says we're all set at QB and it just takes time. My point about Quinn is AFTER that Denver game of 2008 that excites you - has he improved as more teams got film on him or gotten worse? Same question for DA after November 1st of 2007. I'm at the point where I need to see current FLASHES of promise. Detroit's pass defense was 32nd ranked and Quinn's BEST throws of the day INDOORS weren't from reading progressions. They were ALL to primay targets where throws were plant and fire to an area of the field. There's no progressive reading going on when a guy does a 5-7 step drop vrs a team showign single coverage. It's 100% plant and fire to an area of the field.

I look at teams like Minnesota and Carolina who had the elite running games and sound defenses in 2008. One team addressed the QB position while the other team said - we're all set as is. Which team improved significantly? Which one didn't? If we're bringing in an NFL guru who's claim to fame is molding Brett Favre and a coach like Andy Reid who molded Donovan Mcnabb - do we need to stay stuck on pause with what we have at QB? Keep in mind, we 11 draft picks, which is 2 more than Savage left us with for 2008 + 2009 so we're not putting all our marbles into 1 guy if we go that route.

I, at least, hope we get rid of 1 of our 40% completion passers to welcome a chance for a competition upgrade via draft, trade or free agency. Is it possible I'm wrong? You bet! And it certainly wouldn't be the first time. We as fans always want to believe the fix is easy or convneient but is that ever the case at QB? We can't STOP trying because Couch or Quinn never quite became what we hoped they'd be. My take is we MIGHT finally have the right personnel guru who understands the QB position enough to get this right. Not only that, it sure seems like guys like Suh and Berry are going to go ahead of this years QB prospects plus a team like Detroit already drated Stafford so we could get the pick of the QB litter at a spot that wouldn't require a trade-up or we can just do what Carolina did with their momentum from 2008 and say we're all set at QB.

I've got 2 ideas right now that aren't very popular at all. My first idea is Troy Smith for garage sale prices and my second is to sport the grapefruits necessary to use 1 of 11 draft picks and draft a promising prospect. Good linemen are found by good personnel gurus all over the draft. Same with DBs and WRs and RBs. I'm ecstatic Savage isn't sizing these kids up any more.

- Tom F.

@brownb499 said:

Me too! Good point by Alo about needing another year to refine some things.

That doesn't change my overall feeling about his upside for whenever he comes out. Keep in mind, whatever he learns and refines in Fayetteville gets deprogrammed day 1 at the next level. While I'm at it, let's not forget this kid had to learn a completely new offense at a school (without a reputation for putting WRs in the NFL) while facing SEC defenses stockpiling the NFL draft. As Tony Pike can attest to, one matchup with Florida's defense can certainly dilute the accuracy stats. Troy Smith could also say the same thing.

1 more thing to think about: Tom Brady in his final season at Michigan wasn't anywhere near the player he was as a second year pro. Timing, smarts, environment and hard work changed him from blue jeans on Sundays as a rookie to Hall of Fame level QB. Nobody on this planet projected what he ended up becoming and that's the part about the draft we often forget. It's not what one did - it's what one is capable of doing that causes NFL teams to roll the dice.

Anyway, here's the final product for the QB of this victorious Bowl Team.

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YDS/A TD INT RAT

Ryan Mallett 225 403 3627 55.8 9.00 30 7 152.5

30 TDs to 7 INTs is a pretty good ratio. especially if he improves the accuracy thing. I think where Alo is coming from is you really want that college completion % over 60. That said, I understand why they are always talking this kid up on the radio here in SEC country. I'm really happy for Michigan too!

- Tom F.

@alo said:

Definitely saw that last night , needs at least another year

@brownb499 said:

Big arm, Big kid 6'7" 250 lbs...built for the AFC North

Mallett's chronic accuracy issues likely will force him to stay in school another year. He's not NFL ready and may never be a good fit for a WCO.

At this point, he's eerily similar to Derek Anderson. Hopefully, he develops some touch and works on his short game.

As for free agency, Im looking at the solid WR and I am going to give Kevin Walter a shot at the #2or#3 spot.

We need some OL help but the Bargining agreement is holding some players up.

I am going to trade a 3rd and 5th to the Cardinals for Anquan boldin. He is turing 30 this year and still has the wheels. He would be a beast in the AFC NORTH.

Also i am going to give Eric Mangini 1 more year to build this team.

I am going to hire a new OC but I am still looking.

Good news, Mr Lerner told me that beer prices will be going down, and that Beside every water fountain there will be a Jack Daniels fountain so when ur freezin your ass off you can grab and drink and warm up.

Kyle Orton? But...he had only a 52% completion, 12 TDs, 15 INTs, and 2500 yards in his first 18 games. He obviously sucks.

@flugel said:

I know it's hard to be fair to a guy when he goes to a college you hate, but since you've maligned Quinn's career performance, I'll say that this is what he did just in 2006:

Penn State 25-36, 287 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INT (They went 9-4, finished top 25)

Purdue 29-38, 316, 2 TD, 1 INT (went 8-6, were undefeated when they faced ND)

UCLA 27-45, 304, 2, 0 (went 7-6, beat USC)

USC 22-45, 274, 3, 0 (went 11-2)

If you've provided an algorithm for explaining Quinn's success vs. Detroit, what happened in games vs. San Diego: 25-45, 271 yards, 4 TDs or Denver last season: 23-35, 239 yards, 2 TDs?

I'm not saying he's elite, or even that he has played particularly well, but it becomes a bit difficult to simply explain away three very successful games in so few career starts. [For the record, in 14 career games, he has 1902 yards, 10 TDs, 9 INTs, and a 52% completion percentage; not great, but not different from what a lot of young QBs who go on to great success in the NFL do early in their playing careers.]

@brownb499 said:

Big arm, Big kid 6'7" 250 lbs...built for the AFC North

This is another idea I really like! They rave about this kid in the SEC and he was smart enough to LEAVE Michigan.

- Tom F.

Big arm, Big kid 6'7" 250 lbs...built for the AFC North

@yosemitejam said:

1. - select DT McCoy (OK) potential franchise player. 4th player selected in draft

- will let go of some draft picks in order to trade up for

CB Haden (FL)...quick learner, athletic.... will be able to shut down premier divisional receivers. As good as Berry for less$$$...1st round selection

2. Next priority will be QB. Pending outcome of FA issues will obtain services of Kyle Orton.. Decent game manager. Has ability to learn and execute variety of

offenses. Has winning record with two teams.

3. Obtain Free Agent Brandon Marshall..Not happy in Denver. Respects President H. Value has fallen some with recent hamstring issues. Economical WR

Continued development of core o line players...Big emphasis on existing LB's to tap into huge potential...

YOWSA! This is some pretty cool stuff to chew over Yosemite regarding Orton & Marshall.

Haden looks great on game day; but sometimes you gotta wonder if that's from outrageously good cover skills and closing speed or he gets spoiled by a great pass rush. Seems really high to go for a corner when so many great ones have come out in mid to late rounds. When we had Jamir Miller giving us Pro Bowl pass rush off the edge in 2001, we led the conference in INTs inspite of having a bunch of average cover guys in our secondary. Florida's front 7 generates a pretty rock solid pass rush and the 1 game they missed Dunlap it sure seemed like Bama's QB McElroy had a career day throwing the ball. I didn't see those same air tight coverages from their secondary I normally see when thir D is at full strength. Some of that was because Ingram was running all over them and there was no such thing as 3rd and long posing predictable passing situations. And some of it was because their defensive X-factor Dunlap was missing and this was lengthing their time to throw. The more Bama noticed that pleasant game day surprise - the more they had fun with it. Dunlap is also the type of player that could have made tackles for a loss to set up some 3rd and unmanagables as those HOT Bearcats noticed yesterday.

- Tom F.

@big-chuck said:

No... no... and no!! Taylor Mays sucks. Period. The only thing he is good for is taking cheap shots with the crown of his helmet after he failed to cover the receiver. We already have enough DB's who cant cover, we dont need another one.

Get the Jones kid from LSU... I like him.

@yosemitejam said:

1. - select DT McCoy (OK) potential franchise player. 4th player selected in draft

- will let go of some draft picks in order to trade up for

CB Haden (FL)...quick learner, athletic.... will be able to shut down premier divisional receivers. As good as Berry for less$$$...1st round selection

2. Next priority will be QB. Pending outcome of FA issues will obtain services of Kyle Orton.. Decent game manager. Has ability to learn and execute variety of

offenses. Has winning record with two teams.

3. Obtain Free Agent Brandon Marshall..Not happy in Denver. Respects President H. Value has fallen some with recent hamstring issues. Economical WR

Continued development of core o line players...Big emphasis on existing LB's to tap into huge potential...

Haden would look real nice in a Browns uni..ballhawk and he can lay the lumber for a lil guy

@thaak said:

I like Okung too. On defense Taylor Mays, safety, USC would be worth a #5 or # 6 pick if we go defense. I think safety is our biggest defensive need. Of couse, if Suh is available, take him.

1. - select DT McCoy (OK) potential franchise player. 4th player selected in draft

- will let go of some draft picks in order to trade up for

CB Haden (FL)...quick learner, athletic.... will be able to shut down premier divisional receivers. As good as Berry for less$$$...1st round selection

2. Next priority will be QB. Pending outcome of FA issues will obtain services of Kyle Orton.. Decent game manager. Has ability to learn and execute variety of

offenses. Has winning record with two teams.

3. Obtain Free Agent Brandon Marshall..Not happy in Denver. Respects President H. Value has fallen some with recent hamstring issues. Economical WR

Continued development of core o line players...Big emphasis on existing LB's to tap into huge potential...

@ballpeen said:

Sometimes I think you are a bit anal. Of course you still need to throw the ball,,,,you honestly thought I meant never throw the ball??

As for Mack...I was all for the pick once it was made. As for rescuing Mangini...why?? It's a message board. At that point he didn't really need any rescuing did he??

I have stated on many occasions I like mangini and hope he stays, but if not...that's how it goes.

Oh..just because you have a Tennessee drivers license doesn't mean you are a Tennessean. I was told it would take me 20 years of living here before I became a Tennessean, which I passed maybe 14 years ago, ....so I am going to hold you to the same rule...fair is fair!

Until then, you are just a Damn Yankee who actually shows some smarts and is using his noodle.

LOL! Basterd! Next time you're gettin 13 paragraphs full of multi-syllable words I can't even pronounce!

- Tom F.

I bet the fans there show up for what might have been the biggest win in franchise history.

Regards

....an'at

.

Sometimes I think you are a bit anal. Of course you still need to throw the ball,,,,you honestly thought I meant never throw the ball??

As for Mack...I was all for the pick once it was made. As for rescuing Mangini...why?? It's a message board. At that point he didn't really need any rescuing did he??

I have stated on many occasions I like mangini and hope he stays, but if not...that's how it goes.

Oh..just because you have a Tennessee drivers license doesn't mean you are a Tennessean. I was told it would take me 20 years of living here before I became a Tennessean, which I passed maybe 14 years ago, ....so I am going to hold you to the same rule...fair is fair!

Until then, you are just a Damn Yankee who actually shows some smarts and is using his noodle.

@ballpeen said:

Grind it out on the ground...any simpleton can hand the ball off.

Yaaa, Kyle Boller is REALLY good at that. When he got replaced by more braincells in St Louis, Steven Jackson's body looked like Humpty Dumpty's body after the fall and now he CAN'T play even if he really wants to because he had some moron at QB that could ONLY handoff every play. Carolina, Miami and Tennessee are really good at handing off too. We can see how much that helped the durability of DeAngelo Williams, Ronnie Brown and even Ricky Williams last week. And look how nice Tenn looked when CJ sprained his ankle in the 1st quarter vrs Balt last year. Clinton Portis is another back that really appreciates this kind of QB you speak of. Same with his backup and his backup. Look how wonderful it's worked in Oakland, every back that gets named starter can't quite get to his 2nd straight start (Fargas, McFadden, Bush). Any team practicing your grind it out only idea isn't gonna be so memorable in January. I'm just playfully busting your chops in this thread my fellow Tennessean but hear me out before blasting me back.

We've repeated the simpleton art of handing off since 1999; and something about this wonderful weird science you speak of has made 3 different RBs that had PROMISING first seasons with us resort to pussyfootsies in just their 2nd seasons here. (Droughns, Green and Lewis). People forget William Green ran us into the playoffs in the last 7 weeks of 2002 as he averaged over 100 yards a game rushing in that span of games. The next season he had 2 early 100 yard outings vrs Pitt and Oakland; BUT somewhere early on he lost the desire to run it up inside quite the same way he finished that 02 season. You don't SUPPOSE it was because the frequency of 9 men in the box to accommodate our predictability had anything to do with it do you?

We've already drafted oline in round 1 twice, which is good IMO considering Savage sucked at drafting oline later than round 1. Teams with REAL personnel gurus don't need to draft all 5 oline starters in round 1. While we're at it, I didn't exactly see you coming to Mangini's rescue much about the Mack selection before you got the opportunity to play hindsight Nostradamus here. I ALSO remembered arguing with quite a few fans that Steinbach is STILL pretty good before that became crystal clear in recent weeks. I believe I said, our oline was opening holes that LEWIS just couldn't get to in time. And now we see Harrison confirming this observation. When you've played oline or taught it on a high school level - you know what a decent block is, you know if a guy gets there in time and you see if he's playing with gooid base/leverage or not. ALOT people were BLAMING Steinbach when he pulled or trapped and the defender would come through the area he vacated in order to get to the trap hole or outside on the pull, which meant someone else wasn't making their block. Sometimes that's a FB filling or a TE in motion filling or possibly a Center not getting there. I think our oline chemistry has come a long way as our strength of schedule has lightened up in recent weeks.

Worth noting: when we won in the 80s with a GREAT oline guess how many of these guys were first round draft picks: Dan Fike, Mike Baab, Cody Risien, Tony Jones, Paul Farren, Ricky Bolden, Larry Williams and George Lilja. Come to think of it, even RB Earnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick and our QB was a first round pick along with a TE we called the Wizard of Oz. That was my golden era as a fan because I witnessed a team good enough for 3 AFC Championship appearances. Relating this to now, I think 2 first round oline guys is pretty good and now that Savage is gone - drafting servicable/decent oline guys after round 1 should be as doable as everywhere else in this league. Leaving a passing game missing vertical attack prongs and at the hands of QB incapable of hitting the RB on swing passes, screens or dumpoffs, runs the risk of drowing in the blitz. Have you seen a franchise since 1999 that has drowned in more blitzes than this one? I haven't either. Let's get some competance at QB again so there's more to watch than a passing game gong show. The old "all you gotta do is handoff" hasn't really brought our average # of wins per season above 4 or 5 since the new stadium was built. If you want this franchise to EVER compete in a post season game - you're gonna have to do the unthinkable and add a QB capable of restoring all the fond memories competant QBs once gave us. The Otto Grahams, Bernie Kosars and Brian Sipes don't win by mistake or just handing off - they WON when their team was behind with 2 minutes to go a ton because they could do more than just hand off. We don't really need to keep the just hand off mentality for a second straight decade UNLESS we have another crappy personnel guy.

- Tom F.

Chickenwang said:

We do seem to keep starting over, don't we? Hence the need for Holmgren. I hope he and whoever he brings in at the GM spot make a difference.

@lodilobo said:

Let me clarify something: WINNING never concerns me and it gives me as a fan much better pleasure than getting reminded by Pittsburgh's sodderheads we're drafting 3rd again. Trust me! I'm not sure you fully grasp what I'm askign with the opportunity we have ahead with a QB expert making our personnel decisions and 11 draft picks. I read ALOT of people excited about Suh and Berry so I needed to spell it out that we no longer have them on our door step (although we may have an outside shot at Berry if someone thinks Spiller is their missing link to winning). I'd much rather win and get MORE of our players excited about returning for 2010, which I think is happening.

At this time, I don't think we're set at the most important position which is QB. If you look at EVERY serious contender - they have a franchise QB that teams always missing the playoffs long for convenient or not. I just wanted to see what types of things people would coinsider doing to rectify our QB situation. I don't know how many more auditions we need to see from Derek Anderson to prove he doesn't learn from experience or get more accurate from it either. Even worse, I saw ZERO from Quinn that I like. He can't read fast enough for the NFL game, which is quite a bit different than tearing apart 3 military academies and a hopeless Michigan State Defense umpteen times. If you noticed, BQ had success vrs Detroit's version of the Michigan State Defense where his best pases INDOORS were from 5-7 step drops where the plant and throw goes to an area of the field that the receiver is projected to be at. More specifically, welcome to a high school passing game. The ONLY time it worked was in a dome keeping the ball dry without the wind taking it out of bounds against a team looking for more talent on both sides of the ball. I believe they BEAT us with a rookie QB.

I know there's ALOT of people thinking we've been pretty unlucky with the QB thing since we got our team back. Hard to blame anyone on that. However, have we EVER truely had a QB guru like Holmgren in charge of finding the QB? There's NEVER going to be a convenient day to say: "things are going so great let's draft the best available QB today so we can take our time time training him over the next 3 years." This ain't the 70s or even the 80s. It's the era of FA so you got a smaller number of years to commit to in that first contract. If it's a QB in that top 5, you're paying top cake while the guy goes through growing pains in what is usually a bad environment in transition. I can't think of many contenders landing franchise QBs in recent years. Every now and then, it's already a playoff team like Minnesota (for Culpepper) and Pitt (for scum bag). Going back to the 80s, Marino was drafted on a team David Woodley took to the Superbowl with gadgets, tricks and option plays. More recently, San Diego was somewhat different in that they were ready for playoffs with an addition of Gates and FA like McCardell so when their 1st round QB heldout - they learned Brees didn't REALLY suck like everyone in town had indicated.

One really important thing to understand here is if you can PEG a QB right with the right personnel guru makign the call - you can frequent the playoffs and conference Championship Games like we did when we drafted Kosar or Philly did after they drafted McNabb or even San Diego has done since they drafted Rivers. I think Pitt won 2 Superbowls since they drafted their guy. It certainly feels like Indy has won at least 11 games for the entire decade. Now that we have Holmgren, who is supposed to be the QB guru that trained a guy like Andy Reid. If ANYONE is going to be able to make this decision - it's a guy that got on the map for what he did with making Brett Favre into an NFL QB instead of the Glanville-induced happy Hour kid in Atlanta. I sincerely hope he'd know what to do with a pick of the litter IF he deems one of the many QBs coming out worthy of a high pick or he decides to take Troy Smith. Keep in mind, the better we get collaterally the less our chances get at snagging a pick of the litter at QB. If someone is thinking Jason Campbell, Head Coaches are going down like dominos in DC and he'll want alot more cake than Troy would come for.

Staying with me here, it doesn't look like there's an obvious "gotta have" at other positions now that we're winning our way out of the top 3-4 spots. Teams that plan for the next Tom Brady at the end of round 6 can do so but we haven't exactly seen too many of these in our lifetime between Sipe and Brady right? I brought Troy Smith up and everyone hacking at the idea isn't giving me a better cost-benefit FA QB so I'm guessing it's not the worst idea. He'll come at bargain prices vrs the overpayment alternatives we're looking at with Quinn and DA right about now. DA seems like the lesser of 2 evils but how comforting is it that he misses screen passes where there isn't a defender between our RB and the end zone? That's gonna INVITE the blitz against better teams.

Just to remind people of the importance of a QB to winning, here's the QBs already in the playoff picture:

NcNabb, Favre, Brees, Rivers, Manning, Warner, Romo, Rodgers, Brady, Palmer

The rest of the league is busy trying to FIND these types of QBs within a very limited supply and demand. We know it ain't easy but if we have the RIGHT guy in charge of personnel, it shouldn't be impossible any more either.

- Tom F.

@eastlakeian said:

What about Jason Campbell would he already know this WC offense?

We don't run a WCO