OK, guys, don't get to the point where there needs to be a hug.

There's better arguments to get bitter over...

@peterbell said:

No. I don't agree. Jerome Harrison played well whenever he was in the game. He's always had talent, and he proved that in the first Cincy game. How the hell do you play Jamal over Jerome? I mean seriously, think about that! Whether or not he was a complete back, why the hell is Jamal playing over him? Bad decision. Blitz pickup still needs to improve, but his talent needed to be on the field. Mangini mishandled this one. Everyone seems to know it but the echo chamber in here.

If Quinn was playing adequately you think Mangini would give a crap about his bonus? I don't think so.

Agree. That was my point. But then don't go into the season stating your going to do one thing, and then immediately do another. I agreed with his decsion but he made the statement, and it made the team question whether he'd keep his word. Quinn didn't suck nearly as bad as DA, but he wasn't good either, especially early on. But why - WHY - would you name a starter, tell everyone you're going to stick with him, and then pull him after 2-3 games? If you needed to pull this guy for performance, fine by me. But you should have known "hey, I really need to be careful with this because neither knock my socks off. I may have to go back to the 2nd guy. No need to commit. " It was mishandled. It happens. We will get over it. .

Bottlegate..Mangini clearly explained that there were numerous violations by this player and in not revealing the players name was in tune with keeping things in the family, BUT a**hole Braylon leaked it because it was him who was fined for continuing to flaunt team rules and trying to poison the locker room..Sorry Braylon it didn't work.

Not at the outset he didn't. Mangini didn't come clean to the media about what this was all about until after the Chicago game, when he was interviewed by FOX. Listen, I am a Mangini supporter. I am merely pointing out what I saw as mistakes. He should never have allowed the media to run this story against him. He did not need to name the player, but fair being fair he could have nipped this shit in the bud. The media are complete assholes to him, making his job as hard as possible whenever they could, and he handled it with decorum and class. It makes me smile that he was kept on because xxxx them, that's why. But damn he took some shots I think he didn't need to. .

Opportunity periods. Mangini explained what they were for early on and the BS rumor about Davis was proven totally false.

Thank God for those opportunity periods after 10 guys go down on IR, those young guys were ready, weren't they.

Again I agree. Please don't argue just to argue. What I had said was he needed to explain the Davis incident a little better. He need to come out and say "look folks, the story is completely false. Both players were without pads, and unfortunately James got hurt. The films are there, the NFL is going to agree with us, and this is a nonstory. " But he didn't, he went on this long diatribe about the value of opportunity periods. Ok coach, but did James get hit by a player with pads or not? "Well I think the NFL will find we were not in the wrong?" That didn't answer the question. He needed to be out in front of all of this. He wasn't, but Holmgren will teach him.

What else you got..BRING IT!!

What are we having some kind of lame, internet forum competetion? I don't cock-sword fights with other Browns fans. I happen to me a Mangini guy, just pointed out some mistakes. You take this all very personally and that is a little scary, to be honest. Mangini is not your famliy member, so calm down.

@earl34 said:

I am not buying the financial ruin of Lerner as a reason Mangini was kept. Crennel is going to be hired by KC so they can have a big New England reunion and Randy will owe him less. I love how the media and the "Joe Six-Login-Names-of-Florio" is painting themselves into a corner with their logic. Basically, we've gone from Eric Mangini being fired as a "sure thing" because he "can't coach" to "he's staying because Mike Holmgren is (too gracious and generous to let him go". Pretty soon it will be that he has photos of MH with strippers.

Give us a break. Perhaps the guy isn't as bad of a person, coach or motivator as the Mike Florios of the world would BEG us to believe. Funny how the truth being somewhere less extreme makes more sense.

Hey Earl, you forgot that Mangini is bribing Cribbs to say good things about him and he apparently used hypnosis on Holmgren during the interview.

@mopaji said:

+1 = 4

I am not buying the financial ruin of Lerner as a reason Mangini was kept. Crennel is going to be hired by KC so they can have a big New England reunion and Randy will owe him less. I love how the media and the "Joe Six-Login-Names-of-Florio" is painting themselves into a corner with their logic. Basically, we've gone from Eric Mangini being fired as a "sure thing" because he "can't coach" to "he's staying because Mike Holmgren is (too gracious and generous to let him go". Pretty soon it will be that he has photos of MH with strippers.

Give us a break. Perhaps the guy isn't as bad of a person, coach or motivator as the Mike Florios of the world would BEG us to believe. Funny how the truth being somewhere less extreme makes more sense.

@joesixpat said:

The first was money - Lerner's money - and how that might affect Holmgren's ability to spend.

Between the contracts of Crennel & Savage ($21 million) Kokinis ($4 million) and Holmgren ($50 million), firing Mangini ($12 million remaining), all of the assitant coaches, and what it would take to hire a new Head Coach and assistants (not to mention the cost of bringing in a new General Manager) Lerner is looking at at @ $100 million total to make the full change and have ALL of Holmgren's team while also paying all his past front office personnel.

Lerner's rich to be sure but was the $20 million that constitutes Mangini's remaining contract plus the cost of a new annual salary for a coach a factor?

I think everyone would have to agree that it was at least a factor.

That's also $20 million less that could go to players - such as Cribbs for one - at a time when there's a very real possibility that ALL of Lerner's NFL income will be frozen during a lockout.

Couple that with the fact that Holmgren can still make a change - and indeed, the coach he wanted - be it Fox or Gruden - may not currently be available, one can certainly see the financial sense of the decision to retain Mangini - especially with so many fans expressing ManLove for Mangini with a total of 5 wins under his belt.

I tend to think that Mangini is a very lucky guy - and that if Lerner weren't feeling a tad bit cash strapped at the prospect of paying $100 million for a front office - most of whom are no longer with the team - and there wasn't the prospect of a lockout and the desired Head Coach candidate were available, Mangini might be in the unemployment line with the rest of a portion of Cleveland fans.

But I and the media definately need to eat some crow over this... while I was never SURE that Holmgren was going to can Mangini it sure looked that way for awhile.

I'm not gonna slam you as it does make sense that money played a part in the decision it does anytime you're hiring somebody but it didn't decide anything in this case. Lerner would have paid anything if Holmgren said to do so. I mean, doesn't any member of the media see the progress that was made here? And that maybe he was retained because he is doing things the right way?

What boggles my mind more than anything is that the media has never had one valid or logical reason why Mangini would get fired and yet, they drilled fans with it everyday as if it were fact. Everything has been fabricated, spun, speculated, or just flat out fictitious Bullsh** throughout the entire year. Which tells me their not getting any information out of Berea and so were out to get the source of the secrecy out of there, Mangini. Now, they are sitting back and hoping Holmgren tells them everything they want to know. If he does, they will lay off Mangini and jump on the bandwagon. And if he doesn't, are you they gonna start the "oust Holm-gini" campaign? In any event, I don't think I have ever seen such unethical, bias, agenda driven sports coverage in my life. Absolute smut. I mean, everytime the Browns won the press got more and more angry?!?! WTF?!?! I get more insight from my wife who only saw her first football game in 2008 during the season of screams. Sportswriters, the KIA Rio of journalism.

@joesixpat said:

The first was money - Lerner's money - and how that might affect Holmgren's ability to spend.

Between the contracts of Crennel & Savage ($21 million) Kokinis ($4 million) and Holmgren ($50 million), firing Mangini ($12 million remaining), all of the assitant coaches, and what it would take to hire a new Head Coach and assistants (not to mention the cost of bringing in a new General Manager) Lerner is looking at at @ $100 million total to make the full change and have ALL of Holmgren's team while also paying all his past front office personnel.

Lerner's rich to be sure but was the $20 million that constitutes Mangini's remaining contract plus the cost of a new annual salary for a coach a factor?

I think everyone would have to agree that it was at least a factor.

That's also $20 million less that could go to players - such as Cribbs for one - at a time when there's a very real possibility that ALL of Lerner's NFL income will be frozen during a lockout.

Couple that with the fact that Holmgren can still make a change - and indeed, the coach he wanted - be it Fox or Gruden - may not currently be available, one can certainly see the financial sense of the decision to retain Mangini - especially with so many fans expressing ManLove for Mangini with a total of 5 wins under his belt.

I tend to think that Mangini is a very lucky guy - and that if Lerner weren't feeling a tad bit cash strapped at the prospect of paying $100 million for a front office - most of whom are no longer with the team - and there wasn't the prospect of a lockout and the desired Head Coach candidate were available, Mangini might be in the unemployment line with the rest of a portion of Cleveland fans.

But I and the media definitly need to eat some crow over this... while I was never SURE that Holmgren was going to can Mangini it sure looked that way for awhile.

You are clueless on this Joe/Florio whatever..Holmgren rehired him because he see's progress, players buying into the system, good coaching..bring all the speculative horses**t you want..If that was the case Holmgren would have said it DAY ONE Mangini is back..You think the meetings with Mangini and the week delay in the decision were orchestrated by Holmgen for attention..are you saying Mike holmgren is a phoney..What would the purpose be for the delay if MH wasn't trying to make an informed decision? You're post reeks of desperation and excuse making..i have something else for you to eat beside crow.some humble pie genius.. Joe/Florio...you lose. You haven't posted anything on PFT about Mangini in the last week..interesting

Dawgfanforever88 said:

That makes 3 of us.

@choco said:

Dawgfanforever88 said:

I'm starting to think he/she is on Belichick's payroll. If not, that is some serious and unhealthy devotion to Mangini hatred.

@joesixpat said:

The first was money - Lerner's money - and how that might affect Holmgren's ability to spend.

Between the contracts of Crennel & Savage ($21 million) Kokinis ($4 million) and Holmgren ($50 million), firing Mangini ($12 million remaining), all of the assitant coaches, and what it would take to hire a new Head Coach and assistants (not to mention the cost of bringing in a new General Manager) Lerner is looking at at @ $100 million total to make the full change and have ALL of Holmgren's team while also paying all his past front office personnel.

Lerner's rich to be sure but was the $20 million that constitutes Mangini's remaining contract plus the cost of a new annual salary for a coach a factor?

I think everyone would have to agree that it was at least a factor.

That's also $20 million less that could go to players - such as Cribbs for one - at a time when there's a very real possibility that ALL of Lerner's NFL income will be frozen during a lockout.

Couple that with the fact that Holmgren can still make a change - and indeed, the coach he wanted - be it Fox or Gruden - may not currently be available, one can certainly see the financial sense of the decision to retain Mangini - especially with so many fans expressing ManLove for Mangini with a total of 5 wins under his belt.

I tend to think that Mangini is a very lucky guy - and that if Lerner weren't feeling a tad bit cash strapped at the prospect of paying $100 million for a front office - most of whom are no longer with the team - and there wasn't the prospect of a lockout and the desired Head Coach candidate were available, Mangini might be in the unemployment line with the rest of a portion of Cleveland fans.

But I and the media definately need to eat some crow over this... while I was never SURE that Holmgren was going to can Mangini it sure looked that way for awhile.

I'm almost positive this is Florio

@earl34 said:

Tell us all about him. Actually, don't. You know why? Mike Holmgren met with this guy for hours and decided he was worth keeping. If Mike Holmgren finds him to be "cocky" and "arrogant" he would have fired him no questions asked.

Never said I knew him, maybe Holmgren liked that about him..again TO ME he comes across as a arrogant and cocky person..

@mopaji said:

1. Philosophies don't match

Most of us knew that Holmgren didn't care what scheme the coach would run because Holmgren is not the coach. Also, a lot of us realized that the WCO no longer exists which Holmgren himself mentioned in his presser saying every coach from that tree changes the system to suite their ideas. Thus, no WCO, no friction. Funny thing here is, Brinda still maintains that their philosophies will clash. Shameless.

2. Mishandled the QB situation

Do the math, two bad QBs. One is the owners meal-ticket, the other has the respect of his teammates. One is already overpaid why have two overpaid? Any wonder why there may have been a delay in th process from an otherwise decisive HC? I'm sure these explanations were more than enough for the Walrus like they have been for most of us.

3. He was 1-11!!

Why is it that most of us fans realized what the rebuilding process looked like and they didn't? We were looking at things like discipline, attitude, and effort as signs of improvement while they stuck with 1-11. Strange how numbers all of the sudden tell the whole story when we're not talking about QBs eh media? Ever ask HOW those numbers came to be? I guess that doesn't matter. Plus, that would require some sort of analysis, who has time for that when there are buffet tables in every lobby you walk into.

4. Blew the Draft

Rookies play like rookies and have since the dawn of time. Anybody who expected a couple of rookies to come in here and rip people apart on a team with almost zero talent around them has played too many games of Madden 2010. Mack is a monster and MoMass racked up respectable rookie numbers despite having the two worst QBs in the game throwing it to him and having to be the #1 WR. I say its very encouraging to see that under those circumstances. For the rest of them, we won't know a thing until next year so that argument is junk.

Feel free to add anything I may have missed. I know the slams were relentless ALL YEAR so I'm sure I missed some. Oh I forgot. They all guaranteed DA would be gone before next year. If their consistant with their predictions, DA will be signing a record -breaking contract extention worth $125 million dollars over the next 12 years. I wish they would guarantee an 0-16 season next year. SUPER BOWL BABY!!

None of which actually involves any reporting. That is to say, they just make stuff up and report it as if they "know". Jason La Confora was blue in the face writing and "reporting" that Mike Holmgren was "intent" on firing EM and it was essentially a "done deal".

"Media Mythmakers" by Benjamin Radford. Read it.

@b86b said:

You know the coach?

Tell us all about him. Actually, don't. You know why? Mike Holmgren met with this guy for hours and decided he was worth keeping. If Mike Holmgren finds him to be "cocky" and "arrogant" he would have fired him no questions asked.

@mopaji said:

I started a thread a few months back describing what POS Mangini was,without going into the whole thing

the jist was that a good coach makes average players better and good players great,then I went on to dissect

each player that Mangini hadn't improved since he got here...by the time I was done I realized that he in fact had

begun to improve most of the players on this team.needless to say I deleted the thread.

Light bulb moment for me.

The first was money - Lerner's money - and how that might affect Holmgren's ability to spend.

Between the contracts of Crennel & Savage ($21 million) Kokinis ($4 million) and Holmgren ($50 million), firing Mangini ($12 million remaining), all of the assitant coaches, and what it would take to hire a new Head Coach and assistants (not to mention the cost of bringing in a new General Manager) Lerner is looking at at @ $100 million total to make the full change and have ALL of Holmgren's team while also paying all his past front office personnel.

Lerner's rich to be sure but was the $20 million that constitutes Mangini's remaining contract plus the cost of a new annual salary for a coach a factor?

I think everyone would have to agree that it was at least a factor.

That's also $20 million less that could go to players - such as Cribbs for one - at a time when there's a very real possibility that ALL of Lerner's NFL income will be frozen during a lockout.

Couple that with the fact that Holmgren can still make a change - and indeed, the coach he wanted - be it Fox or Gruden - may not currently be available, one can certainly see the financial sense of the decision to retain Mangini - especially with so many fans expressing ManLove for Mangini with a total of 5 wins under his belt.

I tend to think that Mangini is a very lucky guy - and that if Lerner weren't feeling a tad bit cash strapped at the prospect of paying $100 million for a front office - most of whom are no longer with the team - and there wasn't the prospect of a lockout and the desired Head Coach candidate were available, Mangini might be in the unemployment line with the rest of a portion of Cleveland fans.

But I and the media definately need to eat some crow over this... while I was never SURE that Holmgren was going to can Mangini it sure looked that way for awhile.

@thaak said:

And they're acting like Mangin dooped Holmgren in the meetings! One exception, and I can't beleive I'm gonna say this but Mary Kay was on WKNR and actually seemed almost enamoured with Mangini. But yes, they are all backpedalling quite a bit. I say, when we start winning, they are not allowd to cheer!

@drunkandstoopid said:

I didn't wanna point fingers but I'm glad you did! Good news is, we all have a common enemy for once! Down with the media!

@choco said:

honestly if i didn't know ya i woulda probably missed it...but who cares cuz i got it.

@jantz2086 said:

Arrogance and cockiness? Maybe it's focus and determination. But of course one would assume the latter.

i'll meet ya in the middle with smug self-confidence--and he looks like he could be a real dick.

but he also seems like it wouldn't ever be personal or malicious. people can respect a straight-shooter who tells you exactly what he needs from you...he might not always tell you what you want to hear but he remains professional and is a willing scapegoat. with most of his gaffes his true intent was always for growth. i think they recognize he has their best intentions in mind and it shows in how people play hard for him.

it's very possible if, for example, DA was playing lights out on the practice field, and "getting it" in class, he coulda been the guy, then just shit the bed on Sunday. but life in a vacuum is too easy.

but realistically, we could have been 7-9 if we beat Cincy in OT, and held off detroit.

Mangini is on to something, and I am already making plans to do road trips next season! GO BROWNS!!

@jantz2086 said:

This Mangini broke his players away from him stuff is an absurd statement. This team was nothing but a joke, even in that fluke 2007 season. Talent? We had crybabies that thought they could do whatever they want, whenever they want. We were going NO WHERE. Mangini has put together a TEAM, a core foundation - and I would like to know who you know in the organization for you to make a statement saying he has made a block between him and his players.

Everybody thinks they can be a coach.

I never said anything about him having a block from his players, where the hell did you get that from??? I actually think some players like playing for him.. I just think he comes across as if he thinks he walks on water..

@jantz2086 said:

This Mangini broke his players away from him stuff is an absurd statement. This team was nothing but a joke, even in that fluke 2007 season. Talent? We had crybabies that thought they could do whatever they want, whenever they want. We were going NO WHERE. Mangini has put together a TEAM, a core foundation - and I would like to know who you know in the organization for you to make a statement saying he has made a block between him and his players.

Everybody thinks they can be a coach.

One more thing to remember, and I've said it a million times, is that we have a better record this year than we did in 2008 with Braylon, Kellen, Stallworth, Lewis, and all the rest of the supposedly superior talent we got rid of. That's called coaching, folks.

My biggest pet peeve is people saying that we wouldn't win without Cribbs and Harrison, so Mangini sucks as a coach. Guess what, if we didn't have those guys we may not have been 5-11, but someone else would have stepped in to fill the void, though probably not as effectively. I've never understood that argument, because if you take away the two best players from the Colts and I guarantee they aren't in the playoffs right now, so what's the point? Cribbs and Harrison are our best offensive playmakers and they shouldn't be seen as a crutch to our wins, but as a foundation to build on.

@b86b said:

Arrogace and cockiness? Maybe it's focus and determination. But of course one would assume the latter.

This Mangini broke his players away from him stuff is an absurd statement. This team was nothing but a joke, even in that fluke 2007 season. Talent? We had crybabies that thought they could do whatever they want, whenever they want. We were going NO WHERE. Mangini has put together a TEAM, a core foundation - and I would like to know who you know in the organization for you to make a statement saying he has made a block between him and his players.

Everybody thinks they can be a coach.